1st Corinthians 15 Universal atonement

[SavedByGrace]

I think that if you look carefully at God's word, you will see that it nowhere declares that man's will is completely free.

Rather, it teaches that we as sinners are either enslaved to sin and loving it ( Romans 1:18-32, John 3:19-20 ), or set free from sin by the power of God and hating it ( Romans 6, Romans 7 ).
There is no "neutral position".

To me, man's will was only ever free in the Garden...
And the first time out using that freedom to choose, we botched it good.

what does Joshua mean by these words

"14 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (24)

Or, Ezekiel:

"21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? (18)

Or, Jesus:

"39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life" (39-40)

Yet you are UNWILLING, not that they could not will.

Clearly FREE WILL is taught here.

 

[SavedByGrace]

potential atonement that doesn't actually save anyone

wrong, the sinner is saved AFTER the repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. What is "potential" on the Cross, for the human race, becomes "actual" when the sinner repents and believes. Simple!

 

[Quantrill]

Here you still do not deny you are teaching universalism. If fact, you are teaching universalism.
You state that in Adam all mankind (universal) fell into the curse of sin. (We both agree)

Then you state that in Christ all men (universal) are all "represented" (I assume you mean atoned for) by his sacrificial death.

So, are all humanities sins fully atoned for every single human being, past, present, and future? Has this been effectively accomplished to all humanity? Universal atonement must say...yes. Limited atonement says...no.
Limited atonement says only those whom the Father has given to Jesus have had their sins atoned by Jesus sacrificial death. The "all" is limited to all who believe. If the "all" is not limited to belief, then universal atonement has effectively paid for all humanity so that a just God cannot send any person to hell. Why? Because all are made holy and their debt has been fully paid in Christ.

I do not teach universal salvation. I have been clear there. The atonement is universal because it is God Who used Federal Headship as the means to save the elect. Just because the atonement is universal doesn't mean all are saved.

Why do you agree all fell in Adam? That is 'universalism'? Why do you believe the 'universalism' of sin and not the universalism of Christ's atonement?

No, the Bible says all mankind are represented in Christ as the Last Adam. Else He wouldn't be the Last Adam. In the First Adam, all fell. In the Last Adam all are redeemed. But you have to be in the Last Adam. Entry into the First Adam is physical birth. Entry into the Last Adam is faith. (Rom. 5:2)

See (Rom. 5:12-21). How many men are involved?

How many times do you want me to say it. Yes, all sins have been paid in Jesus Christ. Just because all sins are paid in Christ, doesn't place all in Christ. Faith moves one from Adam to Christ. From the race of the First Adam to the race of the Last Adam.

The question is, who are you in? Adam or Christ?

The 'all' is for all in Adam. Else there is no 'Last Adam'. I have already told you this.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

He also limits the efficacy of the atonement by saying those who don't believe don't get saved so he also limits the atonement he doesn't have an unlimited atonement because he speaking of a potential atonement that doesn't actually save anyone

He doesn't limit the efficacy of the atonement. All sins are paid for.

He doesn't limit the atonement as it provided exactly what God wanted. All sin is paid.

Though the atonement is made, men are not saved. Men are saved only if faith is exercised, moving them from the First Adam to the Last Adam.

If men refuse Christ, then they remain in their sins in the First Adam.

Quantrill

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, you have just taught merited reconciliation and salvation. You have also made the atonement ineffective for anyone who doesn't merit their reconciliation.
You then go on to make belief a human effort of the will, apart from grace and the gift of God.

Nope. First you need to understand someone's position, before trying to argue against it . I don't believe in anything you have just said .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Romans 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Notice that we (believers) received reconciliation (from God).

It does not say that humans choose whether or not to receive reconciliation and only if a human chooses to receive reconciliation will the reconciliation be applied to that person who chooses.

Yet, that is how you seem to be reading Romans 5:11.

The elect receive reconciliation, not by their choice, but by God's choice to reconcile us to himself.

Now, does God universally choose to reconcile all humanity to himself? I say... no. He only reconciles those whom He chooses to give to Jesus. Jesus atonement is therefore limited to whom He wills.

Barry, Romans 5:11 shows you are wrong in your view.

The reason Paul doesn't say " humans choose such and ,such is because he's not an idiot and speaks like a normal person . What you are doing is demonstrating
Eisegesis
Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it. Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. Exegesis is drawing out text's meaning in accordance with the author's context and discoverable meaning. Eisegesis is when a reader imposes their interpretation of the text.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, you have just taught merited reconciliation and salvation. You have also made the atonement ineffective for anyone who doesn't merit their reconciliation.
You then go on to make belief a human effort of the will, apart from grace and the gift of God.

The reconciliation has happened on the cross . But a person needs to recieve it . I don't know how to make it any more simple than this .
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20¶Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, all sins have been paid in Jesus Christ. Just because all sins are paid in Christ, doesn't place all in Christ

something very hard for most Reformed to grasp! Just because a doctor may have a cure for all sicknesses, does not mean that all will be automatically cured. It is up to the sick to see this cure foe their lives. Likewise, Jesus has shed His blood once and for all for the sins of all humans, it is ONLY when the sinner turns in true repentance, and seeks forgiveness in the blood of Jesus, can they get saved. So simple, yet confused by mans "theology"!

 

[Barry Johnson]

I'm unsure how you get universal atonement from the first three verses of 1 Corinthians 15.

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

Notice he calls them brothers, not pagans.
He then addresses them in the first person (you).
Finally, he limits who Christ died for as being himself and his Corinthian brothers (you).

Please explain how you think Paul is teaching universal atonement applied to all humanity in these verses.

Sin debt still remains on them, correct?

How can the sin debt remain on them ? Jesus paid for ALL sins .

 

[Barry Johnson]

I'm unsure how you get universal atonement from the first three verses of 1 Corinthians 15.

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

Notice he calls them brothers, not pagans.
He then addresses them in the first person (you).
Finally, he limits who Christ died for as being himself and his Corinthian brothers (you).

Please explain how you think Paul is teaching universal atonement applied to all humanity in these verses.

So Jesus only died for Paul and those at Corinth ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Atonement is perfect payment for sin. Can a just God send a person whose sin has been perfectly paid for to hell?

If so, how can it be justified?

The atonement doesn't glorify anyone.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Therefore, by your claim, all humans go to heaven.
Since all sins are paid for, there is no sin that God can point at to justly cast a person into hell.
I take it you are a universalist, Quantrill.

Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

 

[Barry Johnson]

Did God the father intend the death of Jesus to save all lost sinners then?

The atonement does not glorify anyone . Sheesh what is wrong with calvinists ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Another useless post to deflect from actually dealing with anything offered.

All I'm seeing is woeful biblical understanding from Calvinism. There is very worrying lack of basic understanding of the Gospel from the calvinists here . literally a lack of understanding of the absolute basic components of how we are saved. Its anti gospel..

 

[AustinC]

see #66

See all of John 3, John 6, John 10 and John 17.

 

[AustinC]

I do not teach universal salvation. I have been clear there. The atonement is universal because it is God Who used Federal Headship as the means to save the elect. Just because the atonement is universal doesn't mean all are saved.

Why do you agree all fell in Adam? That is 'universalism'? Why do you believe the 'universalism' of sin and not the universalism of Christ's atonement?

No, the Bible says all mankind are represented in Christ as the Last Adam. Else He wouldn't be the Last Adam. In the First Adam, all fell. In the Last Adam all are redeemed. But you have to be in the Last Adam. Entry into the First Adam is physical birth. Entry into the Last Adam is faith. (Rom. 5:2)

See (Rom. 5:12-21). How many men are involved?

How many times do you want me to say it. Yes, all sins have been paid in Jesus Christ. Just because all sins are paid in Christ, doesn't place all in Christ. Faith moves one from Adam to Christ. From the race of the First Adam to the race of the Last Adam.

The question is, who are you in? Adam or Christ?

The 'all' is for all in Adam. Else there is no 'Last Adam'. I have already told you this.

Quantrill

Universal atonement means that all humans are made holy. Does God fail to save those whom He has made holy and perfect?

 

[AustinC]

Nope. First you need to understand someone's position, before trying to argue against it . I don't believe in anything you have just said .

I understand your position is massively conflicted and thus it is not what God teaches.

 

[AustinC]

The reason Paul doesn't say " humans choose such and ,such is because he's not an idiot and speaks like a normal person . What you are doing is demonstrating
Eisegesis
Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it. Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. Exegesis is drawing out text's meaning in accordance with the author's context and discoverable meaning. Eisegesis is when a reader imposes their interpretation of the text.

You are certainly guilty of eisegesis rather than exegesis. You are projecting your false view upon the text.

 

[AustinC]

The reconciliation has happened on the cross . But a person needs to recieve it . I don't know how to make it any more simple than this .
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20¶Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Always you preach merited, works salvation.

 

[AustinC]

How can the sin debt remain on them ? Jesus paid for ALL sins .

Then all are saved or God sends perfect people to hell. Which one?