For the elect, yes.
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1st Corinthians 15 Universal atonement
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Try answering the question.The atonement doesn't glorify anyone.
Atonement is perfect payment for sin. Can a just God send a person whose sin has been perfectly paid for to hell?
If so, how can it be justified?
Universal atonement means that all humans are made holy. Does God fail to save those whom He has made holy and perfect?
No it doesn't. Where did you get this definition?
Why do you ask of me questions yet continue to ignore mine.
Quantrill
So, a fully perfect and holy person may not be glorified (is flawed) and thus can be sent to hell?Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)
When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.
Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)
Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).
The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)
The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)
What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)
Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)
Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)
So, atoning sacrifice doesn't make a person holy before God? Is your version of atonement a worthless act of God? It seems you think Jesus died in vain. Perhaps you think Jesus blew it because his death didn't function as an atoning sacrifice and propitiation for sin.No it doesn't. Where did you get this definition?
Why do you ask of me questions yet continue to ignore mine.
Quantrill
Quantrill, define your version of atonement for us.
So, atoning sacrifice doesn't make a person holy before God? Is your version of atonement a worthless act of God? It seems you think Jesus died in vain. Perhaps you think Jesus blew it because his death didn't function as an atoning sacrifice and propitiation for sin.
Quantrill, define your version of atonement for us.
Again, why do you ask of me questions yet ignore mine?
Go ahead and build your strawman. Use it as a pinianta for your ilk.
Quantrill
You do not understand this at all.He doesn't limit the efficacy of the atonement. All sins are paid for.
He doesn't limit the atonement as it provided exactly what God wanted. All sin is paid.
Though the atonement is made, men are not saved. Men are saved only if faith is exercised, moving them from the First Adam to the Last Adam.
If men refuse Christ, then they remain in their sins in the First Adam.
Quantrill
I said earlier that I believe in an actual atonement, that accomplishes redemption.
You claimed to have Pink on Hebrews, yet I do not understand how you miss these portions;
This completes the quotation made from Isaiah 8:17,18. The pertinency of these words in support of the apostle’s argument is evident: it is Christ’s taking His place before God as Mediator, owning the “children” as His gift to Him; it is Christ as Man confessing His oneness with them, ranking Himself with the saints — “I and the children,” compare “My Father and your Father” ( John 20:17). It is the Lord Jesus presenting Himself to God as His Minister, having faithfully and successfully fulfilled the task committed to Him. He is here heard addressing the Father, rejoicing over the fruits of His own work. It is as though He said, “Here am I, O Father, whom Thou didst send out of Thine own bosom from Heaven to earth, to gather Thine elect out of the world. I have performed that for which Thou didst send Me: behold I and the children which Thou hast given Me.” Though He had proved a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, yet was He not left without a people; “children” had been given to Him, and these He owns and solemnly presents before God. Who are these “children?” First, they are those whom the Mediator brings to God. As we read in 1 Peter 3:18, “For Christ hath also once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God.” This is what Christ is seen doing here: formally presenting the children to God. Second, they are here regarded as the “children” of Christ. In Isaiah 53:10,11 it was said, “He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hands. He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied.” In John 13:33 and John 21:5 He is actually heard owning His disciples as “children.” Nor was there anything incongruous in that. Let the reader ponder Corinthians 4:14, 15: if they who are converted under the preaching of God’s servants may be termed their “children,” how much more so may they be called “children” of Jesus Christ whom He has begotten by His Spirit and by His Word! “Behold I and the children which God hath given Me.” Those whom God hath given to Christ were referred to by Him, again and again, during the days of His public ministry. “All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me” ( John 6:37). “I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me” ( John 17:6,9).
They were given to Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4). These “children” are God’s elect, sovereignly singled out by Him, and from the beginning chosen unto salvation ( Thessalonians 2:13). God’s elect having been given to Christ “before the foundation of the world,” and therefore from all eternity, throws light upon a title of the Savior’s found in Isaiah 9:6: “The everlasting Father.” This has puzzled many. It need not. Christ is the “everlasting Father” because from everlasting He has had “children!” Why were these “children” given to Christ. The first answer must be, For His own glory. Christ is the Center of all God’s counsels, and His glory the one object ever held in view. Christ will be eternally glorified by having around Him a family, each member of which is predestined to be “conformed to His image” ( Romans 8:29). The second answer is, That He might save them: “All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me, and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out” ( John 6:37). “Behold I and the children which God hath given Me.” We doubt not that the ultimate reference of these words looks forward to the time anticipated by that wonderful doxology found at the close of Jude’s Epistle: “Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever.” When the Lord Jesus shall, in a soon-coming Day, gather the company of the redeemed unto Himself and “present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing” ( Ephesians 5:27) then shall He triumphantly exclaim, “Behold I and the children which God hath given Me.” In the meantime let us seek to take unto our hearts something of the blessedness of these words that, even now, the “joy of the Lord” may be our strength ( Nehemiah 8:10). “Behold I and the children which God hath given Me.” Let us endeavor to point out one or two plain implications. First, how dear, how precious, must God’s elect be unto Christ! They are the Father’s own “gift” unto Him. The value of a gift lies not in its intrinsic worth, but in the esteem and affection in which the giver is held. It is in this light, first of all, that Christ ever views His people — as the expression of the Father’s own love for Himself. Second, how certain it is that Christ will continue to care for and minister unto His people! He cannot be indifferent to the welfare of one of those whom the Father has given to Him. As John 13:1 declares, “having loved His own which were in the world, He loved them unto the end.” Third, how secure they must be! None of His can possibly perish.
Inexpressibly blessed is that which has been before us in Hebrews 2:12,13. The Lord’s people are there looked at in a threefold way. First, Christ owns them as His “brethren.” O the wonder of it! The ambitious worldling aspires to fleshly honors and titles, but what has he which can, for a moment, be compared with the honored title which Christ confers upon His redeemed? Next time you are slandered by men, called some name which hurts you, remember, fellow-Christian, that Christ calls you one of His “brethren.”
Second, the entire company of the redeemed are here denominated “the church,” and Christ is seen in the midst singing praise.
There, they are viewed corporately, as a company of worshippers, and He who is “a Priest forever” leads their songs of joy and adoration.
third, the Lord Jesus owns us as His “children,” children which have been given to Him by God. This speaks both of their nearness and dearness to Himself.
In verses 14-16 we have one of the profoundest statements in all Holy Writ which treats of the Divine incarnation. For this reason, if for no other, we must proceed slowly in our examination of it. Here too the Holy Spirit continues to advance further reasons as to why it was imperative that the Lord of angels should, for a season, stoop beneath them. Three additional ones are here given, and they may be stated thus:
first, that He might render null and void him who had the power of death, that is, the Devil (verse 14);
second, that He might deliver His people from the bondage of that fear which death had occasioned (verse 15);
third, Abraham’s children could only be delivered by Him laying hold of Abraham’s seed (verse 16).
“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil” (verse 14). “
Got it, you refuse to look at your contradictions.Again, why do you ask of me questions yet ignore mine?
Go ahead and build your strawman. Use it as a pinianta for your ilk.
Quantrill
"Quantrill,t.
I do not think you are understanding what you are reading.
This quote agrees with exactly what I posted. You offer it here, but is the opposite of what you posted...you do not understand,
You do not understand Romans 5 either.
All men physically born in Adam, die spiritually and then physically and are in the realm of sin and will go into second death.
All who are IN the Last Adam, are born from above,spiritually....new birth.
Draw a big circle on a piece of paper.....mark it as All in Adam...lead to death.
Draw a second circle, Mark it All in Adam...
but then draw a circle inside that one, about 2/3 the size......Mark it All in saving Union with Jesus..
That inner circle are those elected before time and given by the Father to the Son.....Those are the ones Hebrews 2 is speaking of.
I just addressed what you said...
I don't need the link. I have Pinks book. (An Exposition of Hebrews, Arthur Pink, Baker Book House, 1979) I see nothing in conflict with what I have said with Pink.
I do not think you are understanding what you are reading.
I don't think you understand what I said, or even really read what I said. I am not a universalist. Pink said, (p.139), concerning (Heb. 2:16), "This verse presents an insoluble difficulty to those who believe in the universality of God's love and grace." Pink goes on to say, (p. 140), "They insist that justice as well as mercy demanded that He should die for all of Adam's race."
This quote agrees with exactly what I posted. You offer it here, but is the opposite of what you posted...you do not understand,
You do not understand Romans 5 either.
All men physically born in Adam, die spiritually and then physically and are in the realm of sin and will go into second death.
All who are IN the Last Adam, are born from above,spiritually....new birth.
Draw a big circle on a piece of paper.....mark it as All in Adam...lead to death.
Draw a second circle, Mark it All in Adam...
but then draw a circle inside that one, about 2/3 the size......Mark it All in saving Union with Jesus..
That inner circle are those elected before time and given by the Father to the Son.....Those are the ones Hebrews 2 is speaking of.
I just addressed what you said...
Here is what you failed to read by A.W. Pink;
CHAPTER - CHRIST SUPERIOR TO ANGELS.
First , they are one in sanctification, verse 11.
Second , they are one in family relationship, verses 11, 12a.
Third , they are one in worship, verse 12b.
Fourth , they are one in trust, verse 13.
Fifth , they are one in nature, verse 14.
Sixth , they are one in the line of promise, verse 16.
Seventh , they are one in experiencing temptation, verse 18.
It is remarkable to notice, however, that in this very passage which sets forth Christ’s identification with His people on earth, the Holy Spirit has carefully guarded the Savior’s glory and shows, also in a sevenfold way, His uniqueness:
First , He is “the Captain of our salvation” (verse 10), we are those whom He saves.
Second , He is the “Sanctifier,” we but the sanctified (verse 11).
Third , the fact that He is “not ashamed to call us brethren” (verse 11), clearly implies His superiority.
Fourth , He is the Leader of our praise and presents it to God (verse 12).
Fifth , mark the “I, and the children” in verse 13.
Sixth , note the contrast between “partakers” and “took part of” in verse 14.
Seventh , He is the Destroyer of the enemy, we but the delivered ones verses 14, 15. Thus, here as everywhere, He has the pre-eminence in all things.”
Another thing which comes out strikingly and plainly in the second half of Hebrews 2 is the distinguishing grace and predestinating love of God.
Christ is His “Elect” ( Isaiah 42:1), so called because His people are “chosen in Him” ( Ephesians 1:4). Mark how this also is developed in a sevenfold manner.
First , in “bringing many sons unto glory.” (verse 10).
Second , “the Captain of their salvation” (verse 10).
Third , “they who are sanctified,” set apart (verse 11).
Fourth , “in the midst of the church” (verse 12).
Fifth , “the children which God hath given me” (verse 13).
Sixth , “He took on Him the seed of Abraham” (verse 16), not Adam, but “Abraham,” the father of God’s chosen people.
Seventh , “to make reconciliation for the sins of the people” (verse 17).
If the reader will turn back to the third paragraph in article 10, and the second and third in article 11, he will find that we have called attention to twelve distinct reasons set forth by the apostle in Hebrews 2:9-16, which show the meetness and necessity of Christ’s becoming man and dying. In the verses which we are now to ponder, two more are advanced:
First , the incarnation and death of the Savior were imperative if He was to be “a merciful and faithful High Priest” (verse 17).
CHAPTER - CHRIST SUPERIOR TO ANGELS.
First , they are one in sanctification, verse 11.
Second , they are one in family relationship, verses 11, 12a.
Third , they are one in worship, verse 12b.
Fourth , they are one in trust, verse 13.
Fifth , they are one in nature, verse 14.
Sixth , they are one in the line of promise, verse 16.
Seventh , they are one in experiencing temptation, verse 18.
It is remarkable to notice, however, that in this very passage which sets forth Christ’s identification with His people on earth, the Holy Spirit has carefully guarded the Savior’s glory and shows, also in a sevenfold way, His uniqueness:
First , He is “the Captain of our salvation” (verse 10), we are those whom He saves.
Second , He is the “Sanctifier,” we but the sanctified (verse 11).
Third , the fact that He is “not ashamed to call us brethren” (verse 11), clearly implies His superiority.
Fourth , He is the Leader of our praise and presents it to God (verse 12).
Fifth , mark the “I, and the children” in verse 13.
Sixth , note the contrast between “partakers” and “took part of” in verse 14.
Seventh , He is the Destroyer of the enemy, we but the delivered ones verses 14, 15. Thus, here as everywhere, He has the pre-eminence in all things.”
Another thing which comes out strikingly and plainly in the second half of Hebrews 2 is the distinguishing grace and predestinating love of God.
Christ is His “Elect” ( Isaiah 42:1), so called because His people are “chosen in Him” ( Ephesians 1:4). Mark how this also is developed in a sevenfold manner.
First , in “bringing many sons unto glory.” (verse 10).
Second , “the Captain of their salvation” (verse 10).
Third , “they who are sanctified,” set apart (verse 11).
Fourth , “in the midst of the church” (verse 12).
Fifth , “the children which God hath given me” (verse 13).
Sixth , “He took on Him the seed of Abraham” (verse 16), not Adam, but “Abraham,” the father of God’s chosen people.
Seventh , “to make reconciliation for the sins of the people” (verse 17).
If the reader will turn back to the third paragraph in article 10, and the second and third in article 11, he will find that we have called attention to twelve distinct reasons set forth by the apostle in Hebrews 2:9-16, which show the meetness and necessity of Christ’s becoming man and dying. In the verses which we are now to ponder, two more are advanced:
First , the incarnation and death of the Savior were imperative if He was to be “a merciful and faithful High Priest” (verse 17).
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prophecy70
Active Member
I agree, except I see it as "lost" ( wayward sheep, Isaiah 53:6, Matthew 18:11, Luke 19:10, 1 Peter 2:25 ), but not lost as in "perishing".
But Paul didn't know that. We also don't know that the whole group was actually saved either.
prophecy70
Active Member
We are posting about two different things.
I am posting about an accomplished redemption, and an atonement that actually saves who it is intended to save. I am posting of an actual propitiation, not a potential one.
So you and the Bible are talking about two different things? All I did was present the Bible verses that seem overwhelming universal in nature.
prophecy70,
"[]It's funny that Christ, nor any of the apostles, ever warned us to be careful to generalize the Gospel so we don't actually lie. Rather, they used the worst possible word choices to convey a limited atonement:]
They did not have to.They spoke very clearly on the design of the atonement.
jn10 :11 identifies the identity of the Good Shepherd,and who he gives his life for.
The sheep, His sheep, He seeks and saves them.Every one of them.
Not one is lost. jn 10:14,15
Paul understood completely...Acts 20:28.....to shepherd the Church of God which he purposed with His own blood.
But Peter didn't have it figured out?
2 Peter 2:1
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
"prophecy70
Jesus bought the rights to every person by dying on the cross;
jn17:
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Do you see vs2...He has power over ALL Flesh...
yet He gives eternal life to as many as the Father gave to HIM..guess what? Those false teachers you are so keen on, are not given to the Son, who is Lord over ALL.
If I recall you also pieced together other random verses.....
like this;
Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6)
Let's look at this.
All saved Chriatians were at one time ungodly....they were saved from their sins.....This does not mean Jesus died for everyone, in fact if you read the whole Chapter it tells us who is being spoken of..watch-
5 Therefore being justified by faith
[the ungodly are not justified by faith]
we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
[the ungodly have no peace with God]
2 By whom also we have access by faith
[the ungodly do not have access by faith]
into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
[the ungodly do not stand and rejoice in hope]
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also:
knowing that tribulation worketh patience; [not so the ungodly]
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
[the love of God is not shed abroad in the hearts of the ungodly as they do not have the Spirit]
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. [here these ungodly persons are the ones who were now justified and have the Spirit]
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [US..the JUstified}
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
All of your montage of verses have easy solutions if you just read them correctly.
So you and the Bible are talking about two different things? All I did was present the Bible verses that seem overwhelming universal in nature.
But Peter didn't have it figured out?
2 Peter 2:1
You listed several fine verses but they do not demonstrate what you suggest;2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Jesus bought the rights to every person by dying on the cross;
jn17:
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Do you see vs2...He has power over ALL Flesh...
yet He gives eternal life to as many as the Father gave to HIM..guess what? Those false teachers you are so keen on, are not given to the Son, who is Lord over ALL.
If I recall you also pieced together other random verses.....
like this;
Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6)
Let's look at this.
All saved Chriatians were at one time ungodly....they were saved from their sins.....This does not mean Jesus died for everyone, in fact if you read the whole Chapter it tells us who is being spoken of..watch-
5 Therefore being justified by faith
[the ungodly are not justified by faith]
we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
[the ungodly have no peace with God]
2 By whom also we have access by faith
[the ungodly do not have access by faith]
into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
[the ungodly do not stand and rejoice in hope]
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also:
knowing that tribulation worketh patience; [not so the ungodly]
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
[the love of God is not shed abroad in the hearts of the ungodly as they do not have the Spirit]
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. [here these ungodly persons are the ones who were now justified and have the Spirit]
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [US..the JUstified}
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
All of your montage of verses have easy solutions if you just read them correctly.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
No you didn't understand my position.I understand your position is massively conflicted and thus it is not what God teaches.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Do you believe you have to endure to the end to be saved ?Always you preach merited, works salvation.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
One of the main reasons I moved away from Calvinism was because of its subtle works ' based ' salvation. On the surface it looks like eternal security but how it plays out , is Lordship ' works ' salvation.Always you preach merited, works salvation.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Ok, this is where calvinism will confuse you. The only way you will see it ,is when you see the system is nonsense. The Atonement does not glorify anyone does it? No one was ' made ' perfect 2000 years ago when Jesus said " it is finished " . You were still lost , correct? Still heading for hell ,without God and without Hope . Eph 2.11 -12 .Then all are saved or God sends perfect people to hell. Which one?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
People go to hell because the only way to avoid hell is glorification. Only those regenerated will be glorified. The Atonement doesn't regenerate anyone . God regenerates a person after he believes. Because this pleases God .Then all are saved or God sends perfect people to hell. Which one?
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