1st Corinthians 15 Universal atonement

[AustinC]

One of the main reasons I moved away from Calvinism was because of its subtle works ' based ' salvation. On the surface it looks like eternal security but how it plays out , is Lordship ' works ' salvation.

LOL, no works here. God does it all.
However, you certainly have a subtle works-based theology that you teach. In fact, it's not very subtle. You could easily be a Roman Catholic if you received the sacraments.

 

[AustinC]

Ok, this is where calvinism will confuse you. The only way you will see it ,is when you see the system is nonsense. The Atonement does not glorify anyone does it? No one was ' made ' perfect 2000 years ago when Jesus said " it is finished " . You were still lost , correct? Still heading for hell ,without God and without Hope . Eph 2.11 -12 .

I see scripture and what it says. When you say what I believe is nonsense, you are saying the Bible itself is nonsense. Barry, I and others have worked extremely hard to point you to scripture and you continually run away from it screaming "Calvinism" while you plug your ears to the scripture we share. You really have to look inward at your misunderstanding and stop using Calvin as your cop-out to avoid the Bible.

 

[AustinC]

People go to hell because the only way to avoid hell is glorification. Only those regenerated will be glorified. The Atonement doesn't regenerate anyone . God regenerates a person after he believes. Because this pleases God .

This is just false.
Where does the Bible say "to avoid hell, you must be glorified."? Hint: you cannot find it. You have created a list of works that must be accomplished to prove your merit.

 

[AustinC]

you've no idea what elect means my friend . = jews . Service and purpose . Not gnosctism.

Barry, I know what the Bible teaches and that God calls his children of the promise...elect.

 

[AustinC]

The atonement does not glorify anyone. This is so basic its silly your missing it ?

You have created a merit-based salvation where glorification saves, not Jesus atoning sacrifice, shed for those God the Father gives him.

 

[AustinC]

You haven't presented any contradictions of mine. You refuse to answer my questions which clarifies my position.

Your doctrine of 'limited atonement' is a glass house. A house of cards.



This question was already asked in post #(11) and answered in post #(16)



Quantrill

More than myself have pointed out your contradictions.

 

[Iconoclast]

SavedByGrace,

[First John chapter 2 also tells about this, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world". "

"Also for the sins of the whole world. ]

You seem quite fond of posting greek words.
Which greek words are used in the last phrase; For the words used for.....THE SINS OF???

 

[Quantrill]

Sorry you do not understand what is being taught.Today is another day however,you can try once again.

Big deal???I can see you are to be taken seriously.

If a blind person cannot see a rainbow does that mean it does not exist?

Pink is verbose???Don't you just hate when he lists all those troublesome bible verses?If you have no need for his commentary I will take it off your hands and give it to someone who will use it.

Your failure to grasp what is being said here,in a way a small child could understand demonstrates that you do not want an answer

I understand the Scripture and have explained my understanding of Scripture. I have no problem doing that. You on the other hand cannot explain Scripture, which is why you avoid my questions.

When my questions challenge your 'limited atonement' you pull back in your shell and cry that I don't understand. I do understand that limited atonement is a lie. I have explained why it is a lie. And you have nothing to say other than I don't understand. Typical.

So, again, limited atonement negates federal headship, as I explained. So, who is the lucky person for whom Christ died? Must be you...right?

Why was Adam's sin universally given to his race? Why didn't God just distribute it to the non-elect?

Quantrill

 

[Dave G]

Jonah 3:6-10, "The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands (repent). Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish.” When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way (repented), God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it."

To me, this is not about eternal life.
This is about temporal salvation and God granting favor based on how we as men treat Him in our daily lives.

Jonah was sent to Nineveh to preach God's wrath, and for the Ninevites to turn from their ways and avoid the city's destruction...
They did.

Mark 1:15, "and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

I see this being spoken to Israel, a nation that had agreed to follow the Law of Moses and to hearken to the commandments of God, and not all men.

The Lord Jesus is holding them responsible, as God holds all men responsible, to repent from our sins and to believe on His Son.
However, there's still the matter of the heart that needs to be addressed ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20. )
Unless a person is born again, they will not be willing to do what God requires.

Luke 13:3, 5, "No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish...No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

Here I see much like the above...

A declaration to the Jews regarding eternal life.
Again, the Jews were responsible to repent and receive the words of God per their agreement under the Law of Moses...
Jesus is holding them responsible for that agreement, whether or not their hearts are "in it".

 

[MB]

I see scripture and what it says. When you say what I believe is nonsense, you are saying the Bible itself is nonsense. Barry, I and others have worked extremely hard to point you to scripture and you continually run away from it screaming "Calvinism" while you plug your ears to the scripture we share. You really have to look inward at your misunderstanding and stop using Calvin as your cop-out to avoid the Bible.

The Bible has nothing to do with Calvinism. The Bible is truth ,Calvinism is false doctrine.
MB

 

[Quantrill]

More than myself have pointed out your contradictions.

I have not presented any contradictions. You have done nothing but regurgitate your straw man arguments you use against those who are against Calvinism. You and others are just playing with a pinianta. Though I am not a 5 point Calvinist, I lean more to their doctrine than others. The parts I believe are the parts that Scripture supports. Limited atonement is not one of them.

Was Adam's sin universally given to his race? Why didn't God just distribute it to the non-elect? Limited sin would have been much easier to deal with then limited atonement.

I have shown that limited atonement negates federal headship. So, who is the lucky one whom Christ died for?

Quantrill

 

[MB]

To me, this is not about eternal life.
This is about temporal salvation and God granting favor based on how we as men treat Him in our daily lives.

Jonah was sent to Nineveh to preach God's wrath, and for the Ninevites to turn from their ways and avoid the city's destruction...
They did.

I see this being spoken to Israel, a nation that had agreed to follow the Law of Moses and to hearken to the commandments of God, and not all men.

The Lord Jesus is holding them responsible, as God holds all men responsible, to repent from our sins and to believe on His Son.
However, there's still the matter of the heart that needs to be addressed ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20. )
Unless a person is born again, they will not be willing to do what God requires.

LOL! When men confess Jesus as Savior they are doing God's will and men have to confess and repent of there sins before they will be saved. God does not save men who do not believe. No where in scripture does it ever say man must be saved in order to believe. This is false doctrine.
MB

 

[Dave G]

Luke 18:13, "But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner! (repented)’"

To me, that verse is clear evidence that a person's heart has been changed by the power of God...
They are exhibiting a repentant heart, instead of thinking that their works are what saves them or even completely ignoring the Lord in their actions.

That heart change is not something that we as men can bring about, but only the Lord, in His mercy, can.
Again, being born again is not by our will as men ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).

Luke 24:47, "and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem"

Amen.
Repentance for the forgiveness of sins was indeed proclaimed in all the world, beginning at Jerusalem.
It continues to go out even as we speak.

But to me, the verses you've quoted thus far in no way demonstrate that a person can become one of the saved by performing an act.
As I see it, what you've quoted so far demonstrates that a person can do so, but not why they do so.

Acts 2:37-38, "Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 3:19, "Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,"

See my above.

There are indeed Scriptures that tell us how and why a person either believes the Gospel and God's words, or they do not.
Here are some of them:

John 6:37-47.
John 6:64-65.
John 17:2.
John 8:43-47.
John 10:26-27.
1 Corinthians 1:18-32.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16.

ANTHING else is a FALSE gospel that can NEVER save any sinner!!!

Respectfully,
I see nowhere in God's word that the Gospel and the belief of it is what actually saves a person.
Why you do, I cannot say...

But I was taught this growing up in Independent Baptist churches, and many years ago I came to understand the Scriptures differently when I was exposed to Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and Psalms 65:4 to name a few.
Rather, I see God doing the saving and keeping, and the Gospel is His message of salvation to those He has saved.

I also see that "saving" faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrew 12:2 ) and is the evidence of His work in the believer ( Hebrews 11:1 ). Not all men have it ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ), so not all men can "exercise" it. Therefore, it is not the means to eternal life, but the evidence of God having bestowed it upon someone.

Finally, performing an act or "making a decision" to receive something renders the gift a reward...
Eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) and cannot be purchased by our own efforts ( Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 ).
Otherwise, it would not be of grace, but of works.


May God bless you greatly in your studies.

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand the Scripture and have explained my understanding of Scripture. I have no problem doing that. You on the other hand cannot explain Scripture, which is why you avoid my questions.

When my questions challenge your 'limited atonement' you pull back in your shell and cry that I don't understand. I do understand that limited atonement is a lie. I have explained why it is a lie. And you have nothing to say other than I don't understand. Typical.

So, again, limited atonement negates federal headship, as I explained. So, who is the lucky person for whom Christ died? Must be you...right?

Why was Adam's sin universally given to his race? Why didn't God just distribute it to the non-elect?

Quantrill

The Lord Jesus Christ died a Covenant death for a great number of people that no man can number.
Luck has nothing to do with God's eternal purpose.
God saves a multitude of sinners. They are called in scripture the elect

why do you seem to hate these truths by ridiculing what is taught in scripture.
Perhaps you are one of those internet guys that are so smart that all teachers that God has given as gifts to the church cannot help
They cannot teach you anything right?
you suggest that I am maybe hiding behind Aw.Pink,lol
I will make the same offer to you that I have made to others...
You can phone me and it will just be me and you and open bibles.....We will see how you know so much more than I do,lol
Let me know if you want the phone number, others who make such boasts back down,lol

 

[Dave G]

God does not save men who do not believe.

Amen.

No where in scripture does it ever say man must be saved in order to believe.

MB,
We are given the answer plainly, for why some do not believe:

" Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep." ( John 10:26 ).

Therefore, in order to believe on Christ, one must be a sheep.
Please see John 6:37-47 and John 6:64-65 for more.

 

[Iconoclast]

LOL! When men confess Jesus as Savior they are doing God's will and men have to confess and repent of there sins before they will be saved. God does not save men who do not believe. No where in scripture does it ever say man must be saved in order to believe. This is false doctrine.
MB

So...unbelievers ,the non saved ,can believe?

 

[MB]

To me, that verse is clear evidence that a person's heart has been changed by the power of God...
They are exhibiting a repentant heart, instead of thinking that their works are what saves them or even completely ignoring the Lord in their actions.

Conviction is what brings men to repentance. Saved or not. We all sin and we all are convicted of it. We all have a conscience and know when we are doing things wrong.

That heart change is not something that we as men can bring about, but only the Lord, in His mercy, can.

Wrong again as I said before we all have a conscience

Again, being born again is not by our will as men ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).

Amen.

It is God's will that we all come to Him Jn 12:32

Repentance for the forgiveness of sins was indeed proclaimed in all the world, beginning at Jerusalem.
It continues to go out even as we speak.

But to me, the verses you've quoted thus far in no way demonstrate that a person can become one of the saved by performing an act.
As I see it, what you've quoted so far demonstrates that a person can do so, but not why they do so.

See my above.

There are indeed Scriptures that tell us how and why a person either believes the Gospel and God's words, or they do not.
Here are some of them:

John 6:37-47.
John 6:64-65.
John 17:2.
John 8:43-47.
John 10:26-27.
1 Corinthians 1:18-32.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16.

Yet not one verse says that men cannot believe until they are saved.

Respectfully,
I see nowhere in God's word that the Gospel and the belief of it is what actually saves a person.
Why you do, I cannot say...

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
If it weren't for the gospel no one would believe in Christ. The gospel is how we know of Christ other wise we would not know of Salvation in the first place.

But I was taught this growing up in Independent Baptist churches, and many years ago I came to understand the Scriptures differently when I was exposed to Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and Psalms 65:4 to name a few.
Rather, I see God doing the saving and keeping, and the Gospel is His message of salvation to those He has saved.

I also see that "saving" faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrew 12:2 ) and is the evidence of His work in the believer ( Hebrews 11:1 ). Not all men have it ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ), so not all men can "exercise" it. Therefore, it is not the means to eternal life, but the evidence of God having bestowed it upon someone.

What an imagination and what you just said is imagined.

Finally, performing an act or "making a decision" to receive something renders the gift a reward...

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) and cannot be purchased by our own efforts ( Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 ).
Otherwise, it would not be of grace, but of works.


May God bless you greatly in your studies.

We believe that we might be saved. Faith is not a work
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
MB

 

[Salty]

Warning-
Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 7 PM EDT / 4 pm PDT

 

[Dave G]

The Bible has nothing to do with Calvinism. The Bible is truth

Amen.
The Bible has nothing to do with John Calvin, and the Bible is truth.
Every word of it.
" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. " ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 )

Conviction is what brings men to repentance. Saved or not. We all sin and we all are convicted of it. We all have a conscience and know when we are doing things wrong.

Amen.
But it is God's Spirit working in a person that brings someone to repentance.

However, I disagree with the underlined...
I see that not all men are supernaturally convicted of their sin, or all men would repent and believe.
That is what the power of God and God alone, does for everyone that is "called" by His Spirit.

That men have a conscience and that we know when we are doing wrong is not in question by me.
As I see it, the Bible very plainly tells us that all men know the difference between good and evil ( Romans 1:18-32 ).

Wrong again as I said before we all have a conscience

I never said that men do not have a conscience.
I said that apart from God, we all remain blind to the fact that we need a Saviour.

But all men from the time of Adam's sin know exactly what the difference is between good and evil.

Yet not one verse says that men cannot believe until they are saved.

Yet, it appears to me that you've been unable to show the readers here any passages that say that a person "gets saved" by the act of belief.
We've been around this MB, and I keep showing you Scriptures that answer your questions.
If you disagree, then you disagree.

But, please do not tell me after I've presented Scripture, that there are no Scriptures that say " ________".

If it weren't for the gospel no one would believe in Christ. The gospel is how we know of Christ other wise we would not know of Salvation in the first place.

Amen!

What an imagination and what you just said is imagined.

Respectfully,
I've "imagined it" right off the page, MB.
That's why I listed the Scriptures for reference.

 

[Dave G]

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Amen yet again, sir.

Notice what I've underlined, and where our faith actually comes from as believers...
Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of it ( Hebrews 12:2 ).

It is the faith "of" ( by or from ) Christ.

We believe that we might be saved. Faith is not a work

Another "amen" my friend.
No work performed by men can save anyone.

But faith is also a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) which not everyone has ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

A final "amen!" to your quote sir.
Our faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

The very fact that anyone has it, is clear testament to God's miraculous work by His Spirit in them.
The very fact that anyone who has it and endures to the end of their lives, through every trial and tribulation, never being moved away from the hope of the Gospel, is evidence ( not the means ) that a person has been justified by grace, by the blood of Christ and by God ( Romans 8:33 ).

It is God that justifies...
Therefore, our faith is the evidence of being made just in His sight.
We cannot and do not justify ourselves in the sight of God by providing something that only He can give and that is a product of His Son's obedience to Him.


As always, I wish you well in your studies...
and may the Lord be pleased to show you many things in His precious word.