#2 Greek Tenses and OSAS

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Actually the NASB quote that I gave speaks to assurance not to OSAS. It says nothing about "once you are saved you can never be lost" -- but I am sure there are ways to imagine that is in Romans 8 while being careful to provide no such quote.

My point is that Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" shows the problem clearly.

As Does Romans 11 "graft them in again" -- clearly and in-then-out-then- hope to be in again scenario.

In Christ,

Bob

A "DEBT" paid can't be "Revoked", if the "DEBT" is paid, there is "NO SIN", (taken away) and where there is "NO SIN", there is "NO LAW" to condemn.

Ro 5:13 but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Ro 6:14 for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law,

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation (by the law) to them which are in Christ Jesus,


Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Rev. Lowery: //Sin doesnt seperate you from salvation. It seperates you from the will of God.//

Amen, Brother Rev. Lowery -- Preach it!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Actually the NASB quote that I gave speaks to assurance not to OSAS. It says nothing about "once you are saved you can never be lost" -- but I am sure there are ways to imagine that is in Romans 8 while being careful to provide no such quote.

My point is that Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" shows the problem clearly.

As Does Romans 11 "graft them in again" -- clearly and in-then-out-then- hope to be in again scenario.

Originally posted by Me4Him:

A "DEBT" paid can't be "Revoked", if the "DEBT" is paid, there is "NO SIN",

#1 In Matt 18 we see that you are wrong because there we clearly see the forgiveness of debt being revoked. And as we all know from the ONE GOSPEL the BASIS for God's 1John 1:9 FORGIVENESS is the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

So when Christ says to the saints "so shall my Faither do to each one of you" (as He says in Matt 18) we can believe it. We need not argue with him that returning the debt will be impossible for him to do.

#2. Christ's system works within the context of Lev 16 "Atonement". In that model (God's own model for forgiveness) the sacrifice is made BUT THEN the High Priestly work of Christ follows in the Most Holy place of the heavenly sanctuary. That work involves the individual transaction with each soul.

And it is in THAT context that Christ's words about Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" are fully understood.

Ro 3:31 Do we then make VOID the LAW by our faith? God forbid in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God"

James 2 "SO LIVE and act as those who ARE TO BE JUDGED by God's Law of Liberty".

IN James 2 both the "Royal Law" (Which is quoted as Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18) AND God's Law of Liberty (which is quoted from Exodus 20 - the Ten Commandments) are shown to still be binding upon the saints.

In Romans 6 Paul points out that SIN is STILL defined (by God's Law) as applicable to the saints and we must not be overcome by sin - for by what you are overcome - that is what you serve.

IN Romans 7 Paul points out again that it is only the Law of God that defines that SIN mentioned in Romans 6 to which we must not be enslalved as saints.

In 1Cor 6 Paul says to the saints that they should "not be deceived" into thinking that sinning is ok for a saint. HE points out that nobody doing those things will "inherit eternal life".

1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Rev. Lowery]

No one is saying you can be saved and go out and sin all you want and still say your saved thats not what OSAS means. Thats what I think you think we think about OSAS. Truely saved Christians want go out and commit all manner of sin and expect to be able to say oh well I am saved I am good. True salvation doesnt work like that. You cant go to church on Sunday and sleep with your buddys wife on monday-sat. night go to church on sunday and expect everything to be ok. Christians dont behave that way. If you think OSAS works like that then your not saved in the first place.

As for Matthew 18:21-35 brother its a PARABLE it means if you dont forgive you want be forgiven if you're saved truely saved you will forgive your brethren so I ask you again Brother Bob how do these scriptures aplly to those who are saved.These scriptures are meant as a lesson for the saved to show us how to live a Christian life. Not to contridict salvation which is what you are trying to make them say.

Brother Bob you quote scripture well but I feel you dont ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand and apply what you are reading.
Dont take what I am saying the wrong way. We all do it from time to time dont let your emotions, anger, and/or Satan cloud Gods Word in your mind.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[BobRyan]

Rev Lowery - there are those (like 3 and 5 point Calvinists) who hold to the view that if you fail to "persevere" then you were never saved to start with. Their view of "assurance" and OSAS then is somewhat constrained by future events in which either you do or do not continue to persevere 10 years from today.

But there are the 4 point Calvinists - and not a few Arminians too - that claim that OSAS means you are not lost for going hog wild into sin after you accept Christ. LLoyd has posted in that view and if I am not mistaken Me4Him seems to indicate that as well with his "no sin will be a problem after you are saved" idea.

So while I do agree with you that there is a significant group of those who hold to OSAS that ALSO hold to perseverance - in my discussion with Me4Him - he did not appear to be going down that road.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 26, 2005, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[BobRyan]

Rev Lowery
As for Matthew 18:21-35 brother its a PARABLE it means if you dont forgive you want be forgiven if you're saved truely saved you will forgive your brethren so I ask you again Brother Bob how do these scriptures aplly to those who are saved.

Note the "details" in Matt 18.

The forgiveness "expected" from the unforgiving servant was BASED on the pre-condition of REAL forgiveness already given - so that out of pure gratitude that servant would likewise forgive others.

#1. To claim that the servant was never really forgiven in the first place is to destroy the entire parable and all the logic it uses for urging that the servant should IN THE SAME WAY forgive others.

#2. The parable claims that the servant WAS really forgiven - AND that the servant realized that full acceptance and full forgiveness without SHARING in like manner that same spirit with others. It then goes on to describe forgiveness revoked and the return of the original debt.

#3. You argue that this unforgiving servant is not forgiven, not saved. But you have not shown that the forgiveness given to the servant by the King "was fake" or that it was "not realized so no basis to use it in having a truly forgiving spirit with others".

#4. Notice that parable does not go down the road that your view needs. It does not say "The king forgave the servant and so of course - being really and genuinely forgiven that servant shows full gratitude and thanksgiving for that forgiveness received by always forgiving his fellow servants".

That point is entirely missing -- except to say in the parable that this was EXPECTED from the servant after having realized full forgiveness from the King.

These scriptures are meant as a lesson for the saved to show us how to live a Christian life.

Agreed. This is why Christ ends the parable with "SO shall My Father DO TO EACH ONE OF YOU if you do not forgive each one your brother from your heart".

Those who suppose that this clear warning of Christ "contradicts salvation" are using a definition of Atonement and Salvation not found in the Gospel.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Rev. Lowery]

I never said that the servent wasnt forgiven he was forgiven but the question is did he accept that forgiveness truley. Thats salvation, Christ forgave us already we just need to accept it and acknowledge his forgiveness.

I see where your going with this and I understand. If your saved you want go buck wild. But, you will still sin and you will fall short maybe even backslid but you will always, when you sin, have the Holy Spirit saying you shouldnt do that no no bad bad. If you ignore that and do it anyway you have sinned but not lost your salvation. If when you do something you dont hear that then your not saved.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

[ November 26, 2005, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Rev. Lowery ]

 

[BobRyan]

If his debt was not forgiven - then he was in jail. If his plea for mercy was accepted and his family was not sold and he was not in jail then he fully and completely "realized" --- and "accepted" The benefits of that forgiveness.

There is no indication that the slave felt he "still owed the king" when he walk away "free" and his family was not to be sold as slaves or his home confiscated for the massive debt.

Furthermore the King felt that the slave SHOULD have shared I LIKE MANNER as he received. If you argue that he never really received then he had nothing to really share. In fact - he would have been responding from prison.

My point is that Christ uses a "motivation" that is based on the saint fully forgiven because He speaks to "His own" when He says "So shall My Father do to each one of YOU.." and in fact He is speaking to Peter.

The warning is about the example given which is "forgiveness revoked".

In your response you say "Christ died so forgiveness is there" but Christ does not "undie". The place you leave the forgiveness is in the place that can not be revoked. But Christ speaks of that forgiveness GOING TO someone and that is where it can then be REVOKED.

Had it never gone TO the slave - then it could never be revoked and the warning would have been pointless.

It is only because the forgiveness PROVIDED at the cross is in the story - transactionally GIVEN (really given) to the slave. This alone results in that day of accounting - in the slave not going to jail and also NOT having to pay down the huge debt. The slave's request is granted the slave receives that forgiveness in the parable.

The illustration never questions the forgiveness or application or reality for the slave. It only questions the "level of gratitude" the slave "chooses" to show others in response to what was received.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Rev. Lowery]

We are saying the same thing your just saying it more complex than I am. I simply said he didnt accept he received it yes but didnt accept it. So forgiveness was revoked not by the master but first by the servent then the master.

I can recieve a gift but not accept it.
I can recieve forgiveness but not accept it.
I can recieve salvation because I believe but not accept it.


Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[Rev. Lowery]

Brother Bob you made me think and I like that


Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[Rev. Lowery]

What seperates us from salvation what can remove us from salvation this is the true question here and I would like an answer. How can you be unsaved.


Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[BobRyan]

It is always good to mull over a few difficult texts - I always say.

To understand fallen from grace, fallen from salvation we must first define salvation.

Here is how the Bible define the saved life in Christ.

#1. Reconciled to Christ - in fellowship with Christ.
#2. At peace with God in the light of His grace to us. (Rom 5:1
#3. Forgiven of sins (1John 1:9)
#4. Christ as our Mediator confessing us as His own before the courts of heaven. (1John 2:1)
#5. Faith that is alive and growing James 2:14-27, Heb 11:1-4
#6. Partaking of the Holy Spirit and the heavenly blessings of the age to come.
#7. Freedom from slavery to sin - escape from the tyranny of being forced to sin.
Walking in the Spirit and putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Walking as Christ walked rather than lying about our relationship to Christ.
(1John 2:2-5, Romans 8:3-9, Romans 6 all, Romans 2 all)


Yet all this is still WITH the sinful nature such that we in fact may sin - but will always find in Christ "A mediator with the Father" 1John 2:1 rather than the loss of salvation.

To have that existense revoked is to fall from grace, fall from salvation.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Therefore the “loss of salvation” is seen whenever that state of salvation is explicitly seen to be revoked, when our acceptance and peace with God is denied by God.

#1. Turned over to Satan 1 Tim 1
#2. A certain terrifying expectation of Judgment to come – Heb 10
#3. Forgiveness revoked Matt 18 – old massive debt is now put back on us.
#4. Christ denying us 2Tim 2
#5. The shipwreck of faith 1 Tim 1
#6. Impossible to be renewed again having been partakers of the Holy Spirit Heb 6
Bound up to be burned – John 15, Heb 6
#7. Enslaved to sin again – as a dog that returns to its vomit


Turned over to Satan – in the shipwreck of faith

1Tim 1
18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,
19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

Denied by Christ instead of His “confessing us before God and His angels” –

2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

Soul bound by sin and under the condemnation of death

James 5
19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Forgiveness revoked –

21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

Matt 18
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Fallen and yet hoping to be “grafted BACK in again” into the vine of Christ!

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Peace with God replaced by a certain terrifying expectation of judgment to come

Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

[ November 27, 2005, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[BobRyan]

It is much more difficult to take the opposing case where you must argue that fallen from grace, severed from Christ, Christ denying us, having our forgiven debt returned to us, the shipwreck of faith and turned over to Satan, being burned ... are all descriptions of "gloriously Saved and staying saved".

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 27, 2005, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[Rev. Lowery]

In all that how does it answer my question what seperates us from salvation.

I am not trying to be opposing all the scripture.
And you still have not aswered my question.

You simple quote scripture that talks about Isreal and sinners who dint believe. Of course Christ will deny them in all that where does it say believers will be denied.

As far as James 5:19-20 how is that talking about someone who is saved. Just because you know the truth doesnt make you saved. what that scripture means is that if I know the truth but ignore it and at some point I am brought back I can be saved.

Your quote scripture out of context way out of context.

I agree we must perserver but you will persever if Christ abids in your heart simple sinning doesnt make you lose your salvation. If this is what your saying your very very wrong.

I mean what if you sin and 1 sec later you die will you go to hell for the unconfesed sin no.

So how does sin or disodediance make us lose salvation why would God remove salvation that contridicts Gods very nature.

It is simple you have faith in Christ you go to Heaven. The Bible cant be more clear. Now in order to bear fruit and live right there is alot more to it but to go to Heaven you need only believe. Once you believe everything else will fall into place thats what your trying to say doesnt happen. Salvation is Gods gift to us which only God can remove but why would He it would contradict his very nature.


Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[BobRyan]

Just read the bold highlights in Rom 11 above for a simplified answer...

"They were broken off for.." what?

Gal 5 "they were severed from Christ for..." What?

2 Tim 2:12 "He will deny us if .." What??

1 Tim 1:19 "some have rejected..." What? - and then sufferred the shipwreck of faith.

I could go on - but you see the obvious point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rev Lowrey said
You simple quote scripture that talks about Isreal and sinners who dint believe. Of course Christ will deny them

If exegesis of 2Tim 2:12 shows that Paul is speaking of the pagan world - or the unbelieving Jews denying Christ -- then your point is well taken.

Lets look at the text.

12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;


Who is the the "WE" of 2Tim 2:12?


If you say "unbelieving jews" then "enduring" as unbelieving jews SHOULD still be "lost" not "reigning with Christ".

If you say "believing saints in the NT church" then it appears that if WE should then turn to deny Christ - He WILL deny us.

(Some here have solved this problem by saying that He will deny us but "not so's anyone would notice")

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Rev. Lowery]

Unbelief but a believer cant unbelieve and your saying we can unbelieve.


Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[BobRyan]

We can choose to stop believing. We do not need to rewrite history and unbelieve all we need to do is stop believing in the future.

Obviously.

This is why Paul tells US to "fear" for you stand only by your faith - your belief. IF we turn to be unfaithful then we TOO will be cut off?!

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Rev. Lowery]

Your adding to the scriptures what isnt there Brother Bob. Your try to say we can lose our salvation throught unbelief. But,thats the core of salvation is belief so if you dont believe your not saved so how can you believe and then stop you cant its impossible.


Rev. Jerry D. Lowery