#2 Greek Tenses and OSAS

[BobRyan]

Paul places a great deal of emphasis in Romans 11 on "if you continue" and then he notes "OTHERWISE you will be cut off" as surely as were the unbelieving Jews.

If you have some other way to exegete Romans 11 feel free to show it "in the details".

It is in the realm of the "inconvenient details" of Romans 11 that OSAS flounders and then fizzles out.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Rev. Lowery]

So I see I have answered my own question here you can lose salvation through unbelief.

I'll be praying about this because I dont believe you can unbelieve in Christ...

P.S. you could have simple said unbelief can cause a lose of salvation we didnt need to go through all that.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[BobRyan]

I just wanted to be sure we were both reading Paul when we read that.

Otherwise one could say "it is just Bob who says that"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

As you read the details in the text of Romans 11:20 why do you think Paul says "to fear"??

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Why does Paul say in Rom 11:21 "Neither will he spare you" who is the "you" and what is the "you" supposed to take away from that instruction?

When Paul says "if you continue in His kindness" is "YOU" a saved person?

When Paul says "otherwise YOU will be cut off" in vs 22 is being "cut off" a saving experience of the saints that they will cary with them into heaven?

In vs 23 is "continuing in unbelief" a sign or reason for them "being cut off" if so - then what were they doing BEFORE they were "cut off for unbelief"? What was their start? believing? OR were they inititally brought in "as unbelievers"??

Is "graft them in again" a reference to a saving relationship with Christ being restored - or some more frivolous idea?

As we explore the instructive answers to these questions we will see a very bright light shining in Romans 11 on the subject of salvation gained and lost.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Notice that Paul says that they should NOT continue in their unbelief and He also warns the saints about failure to continue in belief.

This is impossible to miss in Romans 11.

This is the only way to take seriously Pauls statement

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

 

[Rev. Lowery]

Well I spent about an hour praying on this and came to this conclusion.

If you believe in Christ your saved.
If you dont believe your not saved.


Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[BobRyan]

That is what I would call common ground. We can both agree there. Given that common ground we could also (hopefully) agree that if one "continues to believe" one "continues to be saved".

The only question is - what is the "Risk" of not continuing in that belief? Is it just a mythical hypothetical UNreality that Paul dables in for amusement - or is the risk "real"?

My point in highlighting Rom 11 is the danger that Paul speaks of for the saints. He is making very deliberate effort to warn us of something and he is specific in the text.

I think we should share his warning with others. The language "IN" the text has to do with "continuing" to believe vs not continuing to believe and the danger with such a course of action.

quote:
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20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The failing case Paul identifies is "Clear" -- "their unbelief" is real and is terminal - fatal.

By charging the saints with that same condition in his warning to the saints - he is warning of real "termination" real and "fatal" results for failing to continue in belief.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Me4Him]

Under the OT, they "Sacrificed animals" and their sins were FORGIVEN

But note what Hebrews says about this.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

So, What's the difference between "FORGIVEN" and TAKEN AWAY" sin???


Forgiven, doesn't "PAY THE WAGES OF SIN".

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

"DEATH" is the only thing that will pay those wages or "TAKE AWAY" sin.

Jesus is only dying "ONCE" to "TAKE AWAY" sin, and in that ONCE, he paid for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD", Adam/Eve to the last person saved who believes.

Where you, and many other, make a mistake is "THINKING" that a sin committed "AFTER" being saved is simply "FORGIVEN" without anyone having to "DIE" to pay the wages of that sin.

It doesn't work like that, the wages of "EVERY SIN" must be paid by a "DEATH", the "LAW" requires it.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

"Forgiven sin"= is sin "TRANSFERRED TO JESUS" for "PAYMENT".

"TAKEN AWAY SIN"= Wages of sin "PAID", Jesus's death.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which....taketh away.... the sin of the world.

The "WAGES" of every sin will be paid by a "DEATH", either Jesus or the person.

Once saved, You CAN'T" commit a sin Jesus hasn't "ALREADY" paid for. OSAS

Catholic's work so people in "purgatory", are "FORGIVEN" of their sin, but God "NEVER FORGIVES" the "WAGES OF SIN", even one, that is a "DEBT" that must be "PAID".

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

You're saved "FOREVER" by Jesus's death, or "NOT AT ALL".

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Me4Him - Preach it!

 

[Me4Him]

To continue:

ONCE saved, the "LAW" no longer applies to you, you are not "UNDER THE LAW" of "DEATH FOR SIN",

If ONE SIN was charged against us, the "ONLY WAY" it could be "TAKEN AWAY" is for Jesus to come back and "DIE AGAIN", same as the "first sins".

And where there is "NO LAW", sin is "NOT" imputed.

Ro 6:14 for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Ga 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

In the "LAW" not allowing even "ONE SIN" to go "Unpaid", Our "SOULS" had to be "SEALED" against sin, because the "FLESH" "NEVER" stops sinning.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Under the OT, they "Sacrificed animals" and their sins were FORGIVEN

But note what Hebrews says about this.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

So, What's the difference between "FORGIVEN" and TAKEN AWAY" sin???

God simply "forgave" -- fully and completely as is seen by Enoch, Elijah and Moses in heaven PRECross FULLY forgiven.

But sins (even their sins) would still have to be paid for in order to uphold and maintain God's Law. OTherwise His Law would end as soon as He divorces the penalty it requires from the violation of it. To forgive AND STILL maintain His Law the debt it requires had to be paid.

Me4Him

Where you, and many other, make a mistake is "THINKING" that a sin committed "AFTER" being saved is simply "FORGIVEN" without anyone having to "DIE" to pay the wages of that sin.

Nope. I don't make that mistake.

Me4Him
It doesn't work like that, the wages of "EVERY SIN" must be paid by a "DEATH", the "LAW" requires it.

Correct.

So far we are on the same page.

Me4Him

The "WAGES" of every sin will be paid by a "DEATH", either Jesus or the person.

That is "kinda true".

Jesus paid the suffering owed by ALL - even those who do not go to heaven EVEN those who will be paying their own debt in hell.

It is needless payment on their part since Christ has "paid it all" already. They should accept the way of escape God has provided for them.

Sadly - many do not.

But your mistake is that you ignore the difference between "Atoning Sacrifice" 1John 2:2 and the FULL deinition of ATONEMENT that ALSO includes the High Priestly work of Christ AFTER the cross.

Once saved, You CAN'T" commit a sin Jesus hasn't "ALREADY" paid for. OSAS

We already saw that this was false in Christ's example of Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked". Here we see that what was forgiven - is not RETURNED to the sinner. "So shall My Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU if you do not forgive others".

Christ is clear. Forgiven debt can be returned.

This fits perfectly with the Atonement model because Atonement does not END with the death of the Atoning Sacrifice.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

There is no doubt Paul said we can be broken off or cast away. Jesus warned against the same. The question is, what is it from which we are broken off? The answer is, the service of God.

Can a believer be cast away from eternal life? Never!

Can a believer be cast away from God's service? Most certainly.

It's as simple as that.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Rev. Lowery]

I agree with mark but Bob does make a point about if we stop believing but then you have to ask if you stop believing did you ever truely believe.

All I can say is I know where I am going and if theres doubt in your mind you better get right.

I personal think Paul is hypothetically speaking.


Rev. Jerry D. lowery

 

[Rev. Lowery]

From now on I offically blame Bob for everything for 1 whole week. lol

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Jerry,

Paul talks about unbelief. Unbelief does not mean being an unbeliever. For example, after Moses struck the rock, the Lord asked him how long would it be till he believed Him. Does that mean Moses was altogether an unbeliever?

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Janosik]

Let me offer one point of view what a faith/believing means.

If you believe in Jesus then you do what He tells you to do. If you don't do it then your words "I believe" are just empty words. You keep doing what is taught by Jesus you grow in faith. You stop doing it then you are on the way to shipwreck your faith.

 

[Me4Him]

"Salvation", that is removed for under the curse of the law of death for sin, Jesus satisfied, For the whole world, "BUT" for it to apply to a "Person", requires their "FAITH", or "Belief" in Jesus.

What a person "believes" governs their "Actions", no Christian works, no faith, because Faith, in anything, will produce "works", 5 days work=Paycheck.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What's being said here is that "IF" the "little light" really is in your heart "IT" will be shining,

man can't take "FIRE" (word of God) into his bosom (Heart) without being "BURNED" (Saved) by it.

Pr 6:27 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD;

Paul really is teaching "TWO things,

1. Works manifeast a person as a "Son of God" or Son of Satan.
2. Works have "REWARDS" in Heaven


But none of this has "ANYTHING" to do with fulfilling the "LAW" of "death for sin", works can't "ADD TO/TAKE AWAY" anything where the law is concerned.

That is a "TOTALLY DIFFERENT" subject which only Jesus could/did address.

God does have a "PHYSICAL DEATH PENALTY" (sin unto death) for those who "REBELL", but even this doesn't "UNSAVED" them, it only "Chastisement" as God only Chastises "HIS OWN". (saved).

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Which is precisely what God does to Israel during the trib for "REBELLING" against him. (Jesus)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Rev. Lowery:
From now on I offically blame Bob for everything for 1 whole week. lol

No.
You are only allowed to blame him until
sundown Friday - that is when he will be
in his Sabboth and it breaks the Sabboth to
take blame during it and do other work.

 

[Janosik]

Me4Him,

I agree that our work does not merit anything. Our work does not justify, our work does not save. But our work shows the faith. If there is no work then there is no faith and there is no salvation through faith.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rev. Lowery:
From now on I offically blame Bob for everything for 1 whole week. lol

No.
You are only allowed to blame him until
sundown Friday - that is when he will be
in his Sabboth and it breaks the Sabboth to
take blame during it and do other work. </font>[/QUOTE]Will it "break the Sabbath" to "POST" on the sabbath???

Or, only so many "letters" are allowed to be typed as the Jews allowed only so many "steps" to be taken???