2 Peter 2:1 Cannot be referring to a saved believer

[Reformed1689]

I am surprised you claim not to be familiar with 2 Peter 2:1 which says the Master bought those heading for swift destruction, whereas John 6:37 says those given to Christ will not be cast out.

Here is a point not one Calvinist can grasp, bought but not given... Jesus is the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, but only those given to Christ receive the reconciliation provided by His sacrifice.

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I can't grasp a point that is not actually in Scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

read 1 Timothy 4:10 for starters!

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I have read it but here is a problem that you have with that if Jesus is the savior of all people, meaning individuals why are not all people saved, you cannot be the savior of someone who is not saved. Rather, the statement is talking about all people, groups, all types of people.

 

[Reformed1689]

So Jesus sacrifice was enough!

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You say that, but your theology argues the exact opposite. Your theology argues that Jesus sacrifice was not enough because not all people who he sacrificed himself for are saved. Therefore it is a works based salvation theology you put forth.

 

[Yeshua1]

that is only ONE Bible verse! There are MANY others that clearly show otherwise, like John 3:16!

Is not that verse also inspired?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Is not that verse also inspired?

yes, but you cannot take just one verse!

 

[SavedByGrace]

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I have read it but here is a problem that you have with that if Jesus is the savior of all people, meaning individuals why are not all people saved, you cannot be the savior of someone who is not saved. Rather, the statement is talking about all people, groups, all types of people.

and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn’t receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be judged who didn’t believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness - 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

They CHOOSE!

 

[Reformed1689]

and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn’t receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be judged who didn’t believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness - 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

They CHOOSE!

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Of course they choose. I have never argued otherwise. However. They always choose what they desire. And without a change from the Holy Spirit, by being elected, they will always choose the wrong. They will never choose God.

 

[SavedByGrace]

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Of course they choose. I have never argued otherwise. However. They always choose what they desire. And without a change from the Holy Spirit, by being elected, they will always choose the wrong. They will never choose God.

see #36

 

[Silverhair]

It was in this manner that God loved his elect throughout the world, that he gave his one and only Son with the intention that every believer will not be lost but have eternal life.

Your right God loves the elect and those are that ones that have freely trusted in His son for salvation and He does intend that none are lost although those that fall away will indeed be lost.

 

[Silverhair]

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Of course they choose. I have never argued otherwise. However. They always choose what they desire. And without a change from the Holy Spirit, by being elected, they will always choose the wrong. They will never choose God.

But under your determinism God controls all the desires of man then it is really God that is making the choice for them to chose wrong. So your determinism makes God the only free agent and thus responsible for all the actions of man good or bad.

 

[AustinC]

But under your determinism God controls all the desires of man then it is really God that is making the choice for them to chose wrong. So your determinism makes God the only free agent and thus responsible for all the actions of man good or bad.

This might be true if man were neutral, neither good nor evil. But, the Bible is clear that man is by nature radically corrupt. So, given no influence by God, mankind would be on a pathway of destruction, becoming more and more corrupt. We see this before the flood. In that situation, God chose Noah and his family. He destroyed everyone else.
We see this at Babel. In that situation God chose to mercifully and kindly separate mankind by giving them various languages. Then, God chose one person out of all those groups to call his people. From those people, whom he purchased, we see God choosing people to do his will as not all Israel had faith.
In every situation it is God who breaks in and keeps men from continuing on in their radical downward spiral of corruption and destruction.
Can you not grasp this truth?

 

[Van]

If brought by His blood and purchased by the death of Jesus, would get and stayed saved!

Which verse says brought with His blood? Here again is the repeated evidence no Calvinist can even grasp the concept of bought but not given. They say 2 Peter 2:1 does not say those heading for swift destruction were bought by the Master. I kid you not.

 

[Van]

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I can't grasp a point that is not actually in Scripture.

Anyone can say "that is not in scripture."
He claims "even denying the Master who bought them" is no where to be found. This verse indicates some are bought but not given, however no Calvinists can grasp the concept.

 

[Van]

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You say that, but your theology argues the exact opposite. Your theology argues that Jesus sacrifice was not enough because not all people who he sacrificed himself for are saved. Therefore it is a works based salvation theology you put forth.

Yes, you can define "enough" as what it takes to fulfill your fictional doctrine. However dictionaries disagree...

 

[Reformed1689]

Anyone can say "that is not in scripture."
He claims "even denying the Master who bought them" is no where to be found. This verse indicates some are bought but not given, however no Calvinists can grasp the concept.

First of all you are not factual about what I said. I said your meaning is not found in Scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

But under your determinism God controls all the desires of man then it is really God that is making the choice for them to chose wrong. So your determinism makes God the only free agent and thus responsible for all the actions of man good or bad.

Nope. Adam and Eve had 100% true free choice. They blew it for us all.

 

[Silverhair]

This might be true if man were neutral, neither good nor evil. But, the Bible is clear that man is by nature radically corrupt. So, given no influence by God, mankind would be on a pathway of destruction, becoming more and more corrupt. We see this before the flood. In that situation, God chose Noah and his family. He destroyed everyone else.
We see this at Babel. In that situation God chose to mercifully and kindly separate mankind by giving them various languages. Then, God chose one person out of all those groups to call his people. From those people, whom he purchased, we see God choosing people to do his will as not all Israel had faith.
In every situation it is God who breaks in and keeps men from continuing on in their radical downward spiral of corruption and destruction.
Can you not grasp this truth?

I see two possible options here
1] God has allowed man to have a free will so as to be able to chose to follow or reject God. Those that freely chose to reject God were damned of their own free will.
2] God has decides to pick out a select group and those not selected were damned no matter what as they had no option to be saved.

Now as I see it you are supporting option 1. >>Then, God chose one person out of all those groups to call his people. From those people, whom he purchased, we see God choosing people to do his will as not all Israel had faith.<< Now either these people had the ability to have faith in God or they did not. In other words either they had free will so as to follow God or they did not.

The bible tells us that we are all sinners none are righteous and that would have to included Noah and his family yet they chose to follow God. So which is it to be option 1 or 2? And the same question goes for those that of Israel that did not have faith.

Austin from a free will view I have no problem with any of this but from a deterministic view you do.

So the real question is; does man have a real free will and chooses to continue in the downward spiral or does he not have the ability to make real choices and God has determined that he not follow Him?

 

[Silverhair]

Nope. Adam and Eve had 100% true free choice. They blew it for us all.

Where do you find that in scripture?
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."

I do not see and you loose the ability to make free choices. They broke the relationship with God but I do not see loose free will.

 

[AustinC]

I see two possible options here
1] God has allowed man to have a free will so as to be able to chose to follow or reject God. Those that freely chose to reject God were damned of their own free will.
2] God has decides to pick out a select group and those not selected were damned no matter what as they had no option to be saved.

Now as I see it you are supporting option 1. >>Then, God chose one person out of all those groups to call his people. From those people, whom he purchased, we see God choosing people to do his will as not all Israel had faith.<< Now either these people had the ability to have faith in God or they did not. In other words either they had free will so as to follow God or they did not.

The bible tells us that we are all sinners none are righteous and that would have to included Noah and his family yet they chose to follow God. So which is it to be option 1 or 2? And the same question goes for those that of Israel that did not have faith.

Austin from a free will view I have no problem with any of this but from a deterministic view you do.

So the real question is; does man have a real free will and chooses to continue in the downward spiral or does he not have the ability to make real choices and God has determined that he not follow Him?

I will address the bolded statements.
First, #2. God doesn't give humans the option to save themselves. Why? Because humans always choose rebellion against God in favor of being their own ruler. All we have to do is watch our children work hard to be rulers in the family. This is the same thing all humans do to God. Note that God tells us that he only disciplines his children (Hebrews 12) not illegitimate children. Ephesians 1 and Romans 8 tell us that God chooses to adopt his children. God never says that he waits for humans to choose him.
Second, the ability to have faith is precisely because God chose them. Note that in Ephesians 2 and Romans 9 that choice is done while we were still dead in sin. Therefore we didn't choose God.
Third, re-read the story of Noah. God chose Noah. Noah didn't choose God. God saved Noah by choosing him. Noah was given faith to believe an unbelievable truth, that God would destroy the world and Noah would be spared by building a boat.

Silverhair, you are very adept and praising humans while downplaying God. Are you even aware how humanist you are?

 

[Reformed1689]

Where do you find that in scripture?
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."

I do not see and you loose the ability to make free choices. They broke the relationship with God but I do not see loose free will.

You need to read the whole Bible, not cherry pick verses.