Uh huh, however it is about choices and consequences.
God Himself gives mankind choices and consequences.
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2017 is 1984
- Thread starter Crabtownboy
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Uh huh, however it is about choices and consequences.
God Himself gives mankind choices and consequences.
Act as your faith tells you to. I follow my faith in helping the needy.
I was speaking of a distinction.
Helping others because you "choose" to do so, with your time, your skills, your money, your effort...
or
Being forced to help others, by a government, who demands your money, to help with others needs, that you do not know, and you do not agree with what they are helping them with.
Do you see the difference?
I do see your point and actually I would far rather that the church and individual Christians support the needy entirely. I fully would agree with you on that. However, that's simply not possible. Just to provide health care to the uninsured picked up by Obamacare would cost every Christian church in America (and this includes the Catholics) about $200K/church. The church I currently attend could do that if they set that as a priority which they don't and I don't think ever would. My previous church (attendance max of 300 on Sunday) certainly could not. And my understanding is that most Baptist churches have about 100 attendees on Sunday. would throw up their hands and say "we have problems meeting our bills every month. That kind of support is impossible." This is just healthcare and doesn't include food, housing, etc.
But there is a choice. The administration's initial budget called for a $50 B increase in defense spending. We already spend as much on our military than the next highest 9 countries in the world. This $50 increase represents the TOTAL military spending of Russia. And a large part of what we've spent for the Pentagon in the past cannot be accounted for with estimates up to $8.5T. The budget proposed cuts in insurance for the poor, cuts in spending supporting Meals on Wheels, a 21% cut in the National Institute of Health (NIH), cuts in education, cuts in the school lunch program, etc. By calling these programs "liberal" objectives and supporting throwing another $50B down the black hole of the pentagon you are making a choice. So once again, you can chose you objective and I can chose mine based on my faith.
ro"liberal" objectives
Yes, there is a choice.
1Tim.5
- [8] But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
God has never given man the choice to murder.
It was wrong when Cain did it, it is wrong still.
"Murder" is the intentional ending of the life of another, and God at no time allows for that. His Will is consistent on this point from Genesis to Revelation.
Just because God's Will interferes with how Liberals want to live their lives doesn't mean that the Word of God doesn't make this issue clear.
God bless.
Why are the poor poor?
How did the rich get rich?
When I was young in England (UK) after WW2 there was a Socialist government. Before the war there had been depression, low wages, etc. The Socialist movement sought to rebuild not only the country but the structure. House-building focused on 'prefabs' (my wife's family lived in one) until more permanent rented council houses were built. The National Health Service was created to provide health care free at the point of need. Schooling to 14 was free & compulsory.
My school friends all expect jobs with enough money to support marriage & a home. School leavers could get an apprenticeship leading to a trade & career. All sorts of industries existed employing large numbers.
Those who got a university place received free tuition & a (means tested) grant which was just enough to live on. We graduated without a debt. A professional starting salary (£500 p.a.) was enough to get a mortgage, with house prices from about £2.000.
The (Jewish) company I joined was making so much money they offered employees an interest-free loan for house purchase.
A contributary pension scheme was in operation & provided living expenses after retirement.
Where did it all go wrong?
TBC
How did the rich get rich?
When I was young in England (UK) after WW2 there was a Socialist government. Before the war there had been depression, low wages, etc. The Socialist movement sought to rebuild not only the country but the structure. House-building focused on 'prefabs' (my wife's family lived in one) until more permanent rented council houses were built. The National Health Service was created to provide health care free at the point of need. Schooling to 14 was free & compulsory.
My school friends all expect jobs with enough money to support marriage & a home. School leavers could get an apprenticeship leading to a trade & career. All sorts of industries existed employing large numbers.
Those who got a university place received free tuition & a (means tested) grant which was just enough to live on. We graduated without a debt. A professional starting salary (£500 p.a.) was enough to get a mortgage, with house prices from about £2.000.
The (Jewish) company I joined was making so much money they offered employees an interest-free loan for house purchase.
A contributary pension scheme was in operation & provided living expenses after retirement.
Where did it all go wrong?
TBC
The "immortal Joe Hill" was concerned about the "Workers of the World" in the early decades of the last century - you may have heard his memory expressed in the song:
Joe Hill was a “Workers of the World” activist, who was framed on a murder charge & executed in Salt Lake City in 1915. His dying words were, “Don't mourn for me – organise!”
He wrote songs on the principle that “If you write a pamplet, people will read it once. If you write a song, people will keep on singing it.”
Another of his songs goes well to the EU anthem (Beethoven's 9th symphony, "Ode to Joy":
Back to my working life-
Before about 1970, the textile retailer Marks & Spencer proudly boasted, “99% of our goods are British made.” But, about that time British retailers looked for cheaper suppliers.
The firm I worked for was buying from British mills, & I took an interest in the cotton industry. Portugal were making very cheap cotton goods, by employing girls. They had a statutary minimum wage for adults, so the girls lost their jobs at 18.
Our main product was a specialised fabric, so we bought a cotton mill that was closing; bought the looms at scrap price & re-employed the staff. They continued working for us until they retired, but we couldn't recruit new staff.
Also UK unions were pressing for improved standards of health & safety – but health & safety costs money, & it was cheaper to buy goods abroad. So British industry closed down. The militant Conservative, Margaret Thatcher declared war on the unions.
Once Margaret Thatcher came to power in 1979, her priority was to defeat the trade unions by buying abroad & so destroying the UK manufacturing industry. Her vision of a “property owning democracy” has resulted in over-priced houses & rents. She reversed the post-war prosperity & accelerated the interests of multinational companies against the national interest.
In the third quarter of the 20th century, general prosperity was increasing. Most of us could work for an adequate living. BUT the factories & industries were closed down. The expectation of working for a living, often for life, in an industry that had existed for many years & was employing whole communities, suddenly ceased.
The net result was a wealth shift from an adequately paid work force to the former employers, now selling goods of all sorts cheaply made. Many massive industries were decimated. Whole regions were reduced to poverty & dependence on state support. Many could not continue with mortgages. The pressure on rents & rented properties is great.
I became very impressed with Tony Benn & his historical lectures, though I wasn't then convinced that his socialism was practical.
My political interest was Green, environmental.
A strong point made by Tony Benn was that if you pay the workers a good wage, they spend that money; it stays in the economy. On the other hand, if you pay the rich, that money is surplus to their needs & is lost to the economy. It certainly doesn't trickle down to the poor.
That also applies to financial help to the unemployed, sick & disabled, & the elderly.
TBC
I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
alive as you or me;
I said, “but Joe, you're ten years dead.”
“I never died,” said he;
alive as you or me;
I said, “but Joe, you're ten years dead.”
“I never died,” said he;
Joe Hill was a “Workers of the World” activist, who was framed on a murder charge & executed in Salt Lake City in 1915. His dying words were, “Don't mourn for me – organise!”
He wrote songs on the principle that “If you write a pamplet, people will read it once. If you write a song, people will keep on singing it.”
Another of his songs goes well to the EU anthem (Beethoven's 9th symphony, "Ode to Joy":
Workers of the world, awaken!
Break your chains. demand your rights.
AII the wealth you make is taken
By exploiting parasites.
Shall you kneel in deep submission
From your cradles to your graves?
ls the height of your ambition
To be good and willing slaves?
Break your chains. demand your rights.
AII the wealth you make is taken
By exploiting parasites.
Shall you kneel in deep submission
From your cradles to your graves?
ls the height of your ambition
To be good and willing slaves?
Back to my working life-
Before about 1970, the textile retailer Marks & Spencer proudly boasted, “99% of our goods are British made.” But, about that time British retailers looked for cheaper suppliers.
The firm I worked for was buying from British mills, & I took an interest in the cotton industry. Portugal were making very cheap cotton goods, by employing girls. They had a statutary minimum wage for adults, so the girls lost their jobs at 18.
Our main product was a specialised fabric, so we bought a cotton mill that was closing; bought the looms at scrap price & re-employed the staff. They continued working for us until they retired, but we couldn't recruit new staff.
Also UK unions were pressing for improved standards of health & safety – but health & safety costs money, & it was cheaper to buy goods abroad. So British industry closed down. The militant Conservative, Margaret Thatcher declared war on the unions.
Once Margaret Thatcher came to power in 1979, her priority was to defeat the trade unions by buying abroad & so destroying the UK manufacturing industry. Her vision of a “property owning democracy” has resulted in over-priced houses & rents. She reversed the post-war prosperity & accelerated the interests of multinational companies against the national interest.
In the third quarter of the 20th century, general prosperity was increasing. Most of us could work for an adequate living. BUT the factories & industries were closed down. The expectation of working for a living, often for life, in an industry that had existed for many years & was employing whole communities, suddenly ceased.
The net result was a wealth shift from an adequately paid work force to the former employers, now selling goods of all sorts cheaply made. Many massive industries were decimated. Whole regions were reduced to poverty & dependence on state support. Many could not continue with mortgages. The pressure on rents & rented properties is great.
I became very impressed with Tony Benn & his historical lectures, though I wasn't then convinced that his socialism was practical.
My political interest was Green, environmental.
A strong point made by Tony Benn was that if you pay the workers a good wage, they spend that money; it stays in the economy. On the other hand, if you pay the rich, that money is surplus to their needs & is lost to the economy. It certainly doesn't trickle down to the poor.
That also applies to financial help to the unemployed, sick & disabled, & the elderly.
TBC
As Joe Hill wrote & sang:
Even that servile ambition has been taken away. The wealth of the rich doesn't "trickle down." Many became rich by valid means - designing products, building factories, & employing workers. They have become richer by buying abroad & closing factories so they could pay low wages. And now they avoid taxes by forming off-shore companies. & foreign investments.
Conclusion:
The rich DO owe the poor a living.
Workers of the world, awaken!
Break your chains. demand your rights.
AII the wealth you make is taken
By exploiting parasites.
Shall you kneel in deep submission
From your cradles to your graves?
ls the height of your ambition
To be good and willing slaves?
Break your chains. demand your rights.
AII the wealth you make is taken
By exploiting parasites.
Shall you kneel in deep submission
From your cradles to your graves?
ls the height of your ambition
To be good and willing slaves?
Even that servile ambition has been taken away. The wealth of the rich doesn't "trickle down." Many became rich by valid means - designing products, building factories, & employing workers. They have become richer by buying abroad & closing factories so they could pay low wages. And now they avoid taxes by forming off-shore companies. & foreign investments.
Conclusion:
The rich DO owe the poor a living.
God gives commands ~ no one is forced to obey them!
God gives choices ~ individuals decide what to choose!
Taking who's money away? Please provide the scripture you believe is being violated as unbiblical.
health care free
free tuition
Someone was receiving something FREE, which does not mean the providers were working for FREE or the supplies were FREE.
It simply means SOMEONE else was paying the portion another didn't.
It's called "redistribution of wealth". If one guy HAS wealth and another guy wants something, but can't afford it.... TAKE it from the wealthy guy and pay the costs the other guy could not afford. How is that right?
Brent W
Active Member
It is decency when it comes to healthcare, in my opinion.
Yes, spending on and waging needless wars killing innocents is murder. You as a supporter of that should be concerned.
Tell that to Jonah.
Tell that to Paul.
Paul was set to destroy the Church. How did that work out for him?
The concept of "Free Will" has to be secluded to a Biblical Perspective in relation to the various issues that arise. Does man have free will to decide which shirt he will wear for the day? Sure. Does man have free will to obey or disobey God? Sure.
But does man have free will to understand spiritual things apart from the intervention of God?
Not at all. Scripture makes this clear.
The only "free will" men will ever exercise in regards to the Gospel is to reject it, because they will not understand it.
Now, when we place "free will" in the context of a believers' walk with Christ, and in asking the question as to whether a man has "free will" to disobey God, the answer is yes, but, that does not mean it is anything other than disobedience. And when men violate the basic principles of the Word of God, they can expect nothing but a verdict of guilty, and there will be consequences.
Just because an individual "chooses" to murder, it will never be anything but a violation of God's revealed will in regards to how we are to interact with each other.
God bless.
Well, if you look at the situation the world is in today, and you cannot see that because we have, for eight years, turned a blind eye to War, and the death that has brought about, then you simply aren't paying attention.
I doubt seriously you have been run out of your own home, had to flee to another country in order to survive, struggled, after you have done that...to survive, had your family and friends murdered, or been murdered because you were a Christian instead of a Muslim.
"Needless" is subjective, and when you sit in the comfort of a Country where you are free to worship God as you choose, and speak your mind as you choose...
...it's really quite easy to sit around and armchair diagnose what is needless or not.
I am a supporter of the world working as God has said it will:
Romans 13
King James Version (KJV)
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
There is never anything "needless" about defending those who cannot defend themselves.
God bless.
1Tim.5
- [8] But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
Nothing new that I have not already spoken of.
No one is innocent.
And there is a difference between murder and killing.
Engaging in a war or "conflict", is decided by all parties, who are the body of Congress.
So, if you have supported "a political party" you have supported their authority to engage in war or conflict.
The WAY, the "Federal Government" for quite some time has "engaged" in a war or conflict, is to compel the people at large, to PAY FOR the WAR, and then PAY FOR the DAMAGES.
Trump set forth a different idea, which is to: First be asked for assistance, decide IF the US will assist, according to the Constitution, (ie Congressional voting) and then the Requester of assistance FUND the US's assistance AND they PAY for the DAMAGES.
Brent W
Active Member
You are saying that we should not provide free healthcare and that we as a country should let people suffer, not provide comfort for them and treat them as infidels because they can not provide for their own. That's what you are saying, correct? If not, please further explain.
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