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2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture
- Thread starter Ed Edwards
- Start date
Ok, explain this.
Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you:
However during the trib, look what happens.
Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and "power" (dominion) was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
If the church is still here on earth during the trib, then Jesus lied, will ya buy that???
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Nope -
The context of Rev 13 is persecution, and it does not say "the gates of hell prevailed against them" as you seem to need it to day.
The context of Matt 16 is the war between Good and even which EVEN in a time of persecution is being won by GOOD because the death of the righteous is not the same as sending the righteous to hell!
This point is obvious in the NT -- but it is even more obvious in the OT predictions about the NT age.
Your entire system falls apart and your assumption that in Rev 13 "The gates of hell pravail against the saints" is totally false.
In God's kingdom to physically overpower is NOT to prevail. MAtt 10 points this out "DO NOT fear those who kill the body but not the soul rather fear Him who can destroy BOTH Body and SOUL in Hell fire"
You view needs to refute this basic Bible point to survive.
In Christ,
Bob
The context of Rev 13 is persecution, and it does not say "the gates of hell prevailed against them" as you seem to need it to day.
The context of Matt 16 is the war between Good and even which EVEN in a time of persecution is being won by GOOD because the death of the righteous is not the same as sending the righteous to hell!
This point is obvious in the NT -- but it is even more obvious in the OT predictions about the NT age.
The saints are on earth - the beast is at war against them - and this continues until judgment is passed in favor of the saints! THEN the saints take posession of the kingdom!
Your entire system falls apart and your assumption that in Rev 13 "The gates of hell pravail against the saints" is totally false.
In God's kingdom to physically overpower is NOT to prevail. MAtt 10 points this out "DO NOT fear those who kill the body but not the soul rather fear Him who can destroy BOTH Body and SOUL in Hell fire"
You view needs to refute this basic Bible point to survive.
In Christ,
Bob
The "Comforter" is "greater than Satan", when we resist him he must flee, so what changes that allows satan to prevail, does the comforter get "WEAKER"??
What you're actually saying is that the spirit of the AC "OVERPOWERS" the "Comforter", the "Voice of Jesus".
You're making a very "Common" mistake in believing the "Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" are the same, You're not "DIVIDING THEM" according to "Father/Son".
The "TRINITY" interprets/explains scripture.
God used the Holy Spirit in the OT to speak, and "IT" (HS) did not "INDWELL" people.
Jesus uses the "Holy Ghost" in the NT, and "IT" does "INDWELL" people.
The present/absents of the "COMFORTER" explains
"WHO" is doing "WHAT" with "WHOM", Jesus/Church, God/Israel.
Ec 4:1 and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (Holy Spirit)
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (Holy Ghost)
This "Comforter" is unique to the Church, no comforter, no church.
Mt 28:20 and, lo, I am with you alway, (Comforter) even unto the end of the world. Amen.
The "Comforter" restrains the "Oppressor", Satan, that is why "HE" (comforter) must be "taken out of the way" before the AC can "begin his climb to "POWER".
2Th 2:7 only "HE" (comforter) who now letteth will let, until "HE" be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
You won't understand the scriptures until you understand the differences in the "TRINITY"
"God/Israel" Law and Prophets,
"Jesus/Church", Comforter.
Israel rejected the "TRINITY" part of Jesus, and we know how much "DARKNESS" they are in because of it, and the same applies to anyone else who doesn't accept the different methods (Spirit/Ghost) God uses to lead Israel and the church.
And I haven't mentioned the "FEAST DAYS" and their explanation of events.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
No God withdraws His own Spirit as the time of mankind's probation ends JUST AS HE SAYS in Genesis 6 the first time this happened "My Spirit will not always strive with mankind"
Not at all - Genesis 6 is about the sovereign statement of God regarding probation.
That is true - I don't divide God the Holy Spirit up!
But you are wrong in thinking that failure to split Him up is a mistake.
You are also mistaken to think that God the FAther and God the Son are so very different!
That is NOT true - God said that "HE put His Spirit WITHIN you" in the OT!!
In Christ,
Bob
Did Satan "PHYSICALLY" "prevail" over Jesus when he was 40 days in the wilderness??
The "Church" is the "BODY OF CHIRST" and Satan can't prevail over it in any manner, Spiritually/Physically.
Mt 28:20 lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
The "COMFORTER" NEVER leaves the church, EVER.
And the "Comforter" being with us until the "End of the world" is Jesus's statement.
And that's what wrong, the "TRINITY" is more than a statement about the "Characteristics" of God, it also explains Scripture.
The Jews didn't "split him up" either, so they rejected Jesus, were they wrong???
God used the "law and Prophets" to lead Israel, Jesus uses the "Holy Ghost", is this different???
Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.
The "COMFORTER" was send in "JESUS"S NAME", Jesus, as Jesus, didn't speak in the OT.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
I think the "DIFFERENCES" are quite clear, don't you??
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Again you have misdirected.
The point was not that the Spirit leaves the church or leaves God's people ANY MORE than the Spirit left Noah when it left the wicked.
God is STILL correct "My Spirit will not always strive with mankind" Gen 6 -- HE DID that with preflood humanity WHILE STAYING WITH Noah and He does that with the end times planet earth WHILE STAYING WITH the saints.
Obviously.
but your misdirection is noted.
In Christ,
Bob
The point was not that the Spirit leaves the church or leaves God's people ANY MORE than the Spirit left Noah when it left the wicked.
God is STILL correct "My Spirit will not always strive with mankind" Gen 6 -- HE DID that with preflood humanity WHILE STAYING WITH Noah and He does that with the end times planet earth WHILE STAYING WITH the saints.
Obviously.
but your misdirection is noted.
In Christ,
Bob
As I said, The "COMFORTER" is unique to the church age, the Holy Ghost is the "Voice of Jesus", and he didn't speak in the OT.
God used the "Holy Spirit" to speak in the OT, through the "prophets", "kings" and "Priest", the "general population" was not "INDWELLED" by the "Comforter", or "voice of Jesus".
And this "Comforter" is "taken out of the way" (church/rapture) before the trib begins, Israel won't accept the "voice of Jesus", that's why they are "blinded in part" until the comforter is finished with the "Gentiles". (Church)
Israel goes back under the leadership of the "law and prophets" (two witnesses, Moses/Elijah) during the trib, without the Comforter present, which is greater than Satan, the AC/Satan can prevail over the trib Saints.
This is Israel's "Chastisement" for rejecting Jesus.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
We only die "Spiritually" when our "old man" is crucified.
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin (flesh) might be destroyed,
Israel, or anyone else, will chose to "Literally" die, to destroy the "Body of sin" during the trib, this is the "Stripes in their flesh". (Chastisement)
Ps 89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with THE ROD, (AC) and their iniquity with stripes.
Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Israel doesn't believe/use the "TRINITY" to understand the scriptures, and we know the "DARKNESS" they are in because of it, and the same will apply to anyone else.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother Me4Him - Preach it!
Ray Berrian
New Member
Yes, the next major eschatological event will be the rapture of the church [I Thessalonians 4:16] to be evaluated at the Judgment Seat of Christ [II Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 22:12].
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother Ray Berrian -- Preach it!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Rev 20 tells us that the first resurrection is the resurrection of the saints.
It also tells us that the next resurrection is 1000 years later.
1Thess 4 tells us that the first resurrection is where the rapture occurs.
If those obvious facts are kept in mind -- the scenario in Matt 24 -- (as in the actual sequence it presents) is perfectly preserved.
In 2Thess 2 we have perfect agreement with that sequence since we see that the appearing of Christ is first preceeded by the antichrist - the man of sin.
In Christ,
Bob
It also tells us that the next resurrection is 1000 years later.
1Thess 4 tells us that the first resurrection is where the rapture occurs.
If those obvious facts are kept in mind -- the scenario in Matt 24 -- (as in the actual sequence it presents) is perfectly preserved.
In 2Thess 2 we have perfect agreement with that sequence since we see that the appearing of Christ is first preceeded by the antichrist - the man of sin.
In Christ,
Bob
Ray Berrian
New Member
Bob Ryan,
I think you are saying that the rapture is next then the appearing of the Antichrist in the world and then the Second Coming of Christ to destroy all of the enemies of the Lord God as noted in Revelation 19:11 to the end of this chapter.
This is the correct eschatological events for the future.
I think you are saying that the rapture is next then the appearing of the Antichrist in the world and then the Second Coming of Christ to destroy all of the enemies of the Lord God as noted in Revelation 19:11 to the end of this chapter.
This is the correct eschatological events for the future.
You are making a "Classical mistake" that has kept "millions" in the "Dark".
Every place the word "Resurrection" is used in scripture, you'll find they are "BACK ON EARTH, ALIVE",
Lazarus, Back on earth,
Jesus, back on earth,
Saints in Jerusalem, Back on earth,
First resurrection, back on earth,
GW Throne, back on earth.
Where is the RAPTURE mention in this, "IT ISN'T", Why, the rapture "IS NOT" a resurrection according to the biblical definition of the word.
In the rapture, Saints go directly to heaven, they are not "back on the earth, alive".
Resurrection defines/describes a "PROMISE" to us of being "BACK ON THE EARTH, ALIVE", for both the "Mill Kingdom" (MK) and the "NEW Earth".
So far as "Saints" being resurrected, there are only three.
1. Those who appeared in Jerusalem, and Jesus led "captive" when he ascended.
2. The "First resurrection", when we return with Jesus to end the trib.
3. GW Throne resurrection.
In all three of these resurrections, they are "Back on earth, alive".
People use the word to describe the rapture, but failing to understand it's proper use, can/does lead to confusion where prophecy is concerned, especially the sequence of events.
This may appear to be "splitting a hair", but as a former machinist, when the specs call for a 1/2 thousandth, one thousandth won't work, and "God's word" is written with even closer tolerances.
Ray Berrian
New Member
The 'First Resurrection' has only to do with the bodily resurrection from the dead of the saints of God, which will be future to our time at the Rapture of the Christian church. This 'first resurrection' is the exclusive topic of I Corinthians chapter 15.
The Great White Throne Judgement is the place of the judgment only of all sinners of all time. We will not appear there because our judgment, as Christians, will take place at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Different expressions of words means two distinct judgments.
Being a 'machinist' is worlds apart from being a theologian. In theology there is zero 'tolerance' for wrong interpretation.
This is the basic truth. Those who die as martyrs during the Great Tribulation on earth will die and be buried and when Jesus sets up the Millenimum directly after the Second Coming of Christ to destroy the remaining wicked people, the dead martyrs will be included in those who experience a
'First Resurrection' out of the ground with a spiritual body like the Lord's to live forever with Him.
I hope this last paragraph did not confuse anyone.
The Great White Throne Judgement is the place of the judgment only of all sinners of all time. We will not appear there because our judgment, as Christians, will take place at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Different expressions of words means two distinct judgments.
Being a 'machinist' is worlds apart from being a theologian. In theology there is zero 'tolerance' for wrong interpretation.
This is the basic truth. Those who die as martyrs during the Great Tribulation on earth will die and be buried and when Jesus sets up the Millenimum directly after the Second Coming of Christ to destroy the remaining wicked people, the dead martyrs will be included in those who experience a
'First Resurrection' out of the ground with a spiritual body like the Lord's to live forever with Him.
I hope this last paragraph did not confuse anyone.
I Corinthians chapter 15, is the rapture of the church, they are not "back on earth" at that time but go directly to Heaven with Jesus.
This is the "Day of Christ", (Bridegroom) it is "Pre trib".
"Seven years later, (post trib) The "Day of the Lord", Jesus physically returns "TO THE EARTH", with "ALL HIS SAINTS", this is the "First Resurrection", not the "second".
1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
Do you see how "resurrection" is defined by the scriptures??
Only the "Righteous" are "resurrected" prior to Mill Kingdom and the GWT, however, People who lived/died during the MK will also be resurrected to Judgement along with the "Sinners".
Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Ray Berrian
New Member
As to the Rapture there will be people living who will be translated like Jesus' ascension, into Heaven. This is why Paul says in I Thessalonians 4:17,
'. . . and we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in
the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air...'
'Comfort one another with these words' [4:18].
'. . . and we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in
the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air...'
'Comfort one another with these words' [4:18].
Yep, we "Confrom to his image" in many different ways.
Romans 8 29, For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.
Jesus, was the Son of God.
Matthew 8 29, Jesus, thou Son of God.
Christians, are Sons of God.
John 1 12, to them gave he power to become the sons of God.
Jesus, spoke the words of God.
John 3 34, For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:
Christians, speak the words of God.
John 17 8, For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me.
Jesus, possessed the Holy spirit.
John 3 34, for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Christians, possesses the Holy Spirit.
Luke 11 13, your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him.
Jesus, was the Light of the world.
John 9 5, I am the light of the world.
Christians, are the light of the world.
Matthew 5 14, Ye are the light of the world.
Jesus, performed the Works of God.
John 9 4, I must work the works of him that sent me.
Christians, perform the Works of God.
John 14 12, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also.
Jesus, had the Righteousness of God.
Romans 10 4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.
Christians, Have the Righteousness of God.
Romans 3 22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.
Jesus, was God's Representative.
Matthew 10 40, he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Christians, are God's Representatives
Matthew 10 40, He that receiveth you receiveth me.
Jesus, Crucified for salvation.
Matthew 27 35, And they crucified him.
Christians, Crucified for salvation.
Romans 6 6, Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him.
Jesus, sin had no dominion over Jesus.
Second Corinthians 5 21, For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin.
Christians, sin has no dominion over Christians.
Romans 6 14, For sin shall not have dominion over you.
Jesus, was Rapture off the earth.
Acts 1 9, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Christians, will be Rapture off the earth.
First Thessolonians 4 17, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.
Jesus, was Resurrected in three days.
Luke 18 33, and the third day he shall rise again.
Christians, will be Resurrected in Three days.
Romans 6 5, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.
These three days for the church are the 5th, 6th, and 7th day.
Jesus, received a Glorified body.
Acts 2 31, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Christians, will receive a Glorified Body.
First Corinthians 15 53, For this corruptible must put on in corruption.
Jesus, Presented his Body a living sacrifice before God.
1Co 5:7 For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Christians, present their body.
Romans 12 1, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice,
Jesus, will inherit the universe.
First Peter 3 22, Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Christians, will inherit the universe.
Romans 8 17, And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.
Jesus, will Reign over the earth.
Habakkuk 2 14, For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Christians, will Reign over the earth.
Revelations 20 4, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The title, Son of God, conferred on Christians, entitled them to sit on the right hand of God, along with Jesus.
Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
As Jesus presented only his body before God, so will only his body, the Church, be presented before God at the lamb’s marriage supper. (rapture)
Re 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.
The lamb’s marriage supper occurs during the tribulations period, while God is making the earth Jesus’s footstool.
Luke 20 42, And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
These are just some of the ways Christians conform to Jesus’s image.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You have made a critical error by inserting "back on earth" in the text as your view 'needs' it.
#1. It is never the case that "back on earth" is the focus of the text as if to say "they left then came back on earth for resurrection". No "back on earth" statements found for anyone EXCEPT for Christ Himself as a promise -- referencing events AFTER His resurrection and ascension.
#2. IN ALL cases the resurrection is the fact of the dead coming up out of the grave. That is ALSO true in 1Thess 4 and is the case in Rev 20 and that is why we accept the obvious point that the resurrection of 1Thess 4 IS the resurrection of the righteous - the FIRST resurrection (Rev 20). This is what Christ refers to when HE says in John 5 there will be a "REsurrection of the just and a resurrection of the unjust". Two distinct resurrections - both of which are described in Rev 20.
Lazarus is never said to be "BACK on earth" when raised. He is raised from the dead - just as 1Thess 4 says "The DEAD in CHRIST rise first".
Christ says to Lazarus "come forth". You argue that He "should have said" -- "be resurrected" so that Lazarus would "COME BACK to earth".
The dead in Christ "Shall RISE" -- this is the resurrection of the righteous as described also by John.
John already spoke of this in John 5 and then in Rev 20 he shows it to be the "FIRST" resurrection.
The notion that 1Thess 4 is NOT talking about the resurrection - is hopeless. Notice that in 1Cor 15 the SAME topic of the future hope and life of the saints DOES use the term resurrection!
There is no way to make you slight of hand work.
Your view clearly NEEDS to call the FIRST resurrection "the 2nd" or something other than the FIRST.
Your view ignores the fact that for John on Patmos ALL PAST Resurrection are PAST - and the FUTURE holds only one general resurrection of the righteous according to John. It is the "FIRST resurrection".
Impossible to miss.
In Christ,
Bob
BOB
Resurrection, a person who was dead but is alive and "back on the earth".
And every place you find this word used in scripture, their location will be "back on the earth".
the "First Resurrection" occurs "Post Trib".
The "Church" isn't here during the trib, it's removal is called the "RAPTURE",
When they return with Jesus, "to the earth", at the end of the trib, is the "First Resurrection".
The "Day of Christ" is the rapture,
The "Day of the Lord", is the "first resurrection",
Two different "NAMES",
Day of Christ=rapture,
Day of the lord=first resurrection,
to describe "TWO" different events.
As I said, scripture is written "Very precise", and you have to pay attention to this "precision", to get it right.
Resurrection, a person who was dead but is alive and "back on the earth".
And every place you find this word used in scripture, their location will be "back on the earth".
The rapture, (those dead and alive) occurs "pre trib",
the "First Resurrection" occurs "Post Trib".
The "Church" isn't here during the trib, it's removal is called the "RAPTURE",
When they return with Jesus, "to the earth", at the end of the trib, is the "First Resurrection".
The "Day of Christ" is the rapture,
The "Day of the Lord", is the "first resurrection",
Two different "NAMES",
Day of Christ=rapture,
Day of the lord=first resurrection,
to describe "TWO" different events.
As I said, scripture is written "Very precise", and you have to pay attention to this "precision", to get it right.