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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Jul 15, 2006.

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  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    No, not always. I knew prior to having children that my son would someday do something that would hurt himself and hurt others. This knowledge comes because he's human with a sin nature. Did this stop me from having children? No. I could have prevented my son's future actions by not having him in the first place.
    I matters not what we consider "wise".
    Careful, you're starting to sound like johnp. This is hyper calvinism, and makes God the "cause" of man's sin.
     
    #21 webdog, Jul 16, 2006
  2. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Lots of people make this same mistake, but it's only 1, not 10. The first bit has two states, 0 and 1. That's why it's binary. 10 would include 00, 01, 10, which is 3 different states (even though you end up with the decimal number 2, it starts with 0). So there are 1 kinds of people:

    1) those who understand binary, and

    0) those who don't.

    Here's how to tell how geeky a person is: Ask them to count to 3.

    1, 2, 3 = normal person

    0, 1, 2 = geek

    00, 01, 10 = ultrageek
     
    #22 npetreley, Jul 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2006
  3. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Bob, I can greatly understand and agree with Gods view of time, space and matter. In fact the trinity can be seen in this understanding and is a good study. God has no clock and sees 1000 years as if it was a day. To Him to choose NOW may mean He choose 8 million years ago, going by our clock. The reason why I do not support your view has nothing to do with time, space and matter and how God relates to them. I disagree in 3 fold.

    1) You may be crossing words here.

    proeido {pro-i'-do} see proorao 4308
    1) to foresee

    Is found in 2 places

    Proeido is never used toward the elect although it is true God did also see this.

    proginosko {prog-in-oce'-ko} 4267
    1) to foreknow
    a) of those whom God elected to salvation
    2) to predestinate

    Proginosko always is talking about people. This is used 5 times in the Bible. 3 times about God toward us. You could force your meaning on one text. But there is more to look at in Peter..

    I'll get to Peter in a few..

    Now..Look at one more word.

    prognosis {prog'-no-sis} 4268

    1) foreknowledge
    2) forethought, pre-arrangement

    Prognosis is taken from proginosko,

    In 1Pe 1:2, the word for "foreknowledge" is the same as "foreordain" in the twentieth verse of the same chapter, where the meaning cannot be "foreknowledge" about Christ. God's foreknowledge about persons is without limitations. His foreknowledge of persons is limited to those who are actually saved and glorified.

    Next…

    2) As said before..this view removes reason for choosing from Gods decree to Gods odligation to man. Yet this is not what we see in each text.

    Look at the verse above again…

    The casting away...if true, would be a decree by God, for only He has the power to do so.


    In each of these passages…it is talking about Gods decree and not upon just seeing something done for the action is done of His own will and purpose.

    3) Last…the word Foresaw, is not in the text of 1 Cor.

    But..it does say it is to bring Him glory.

    In Christ..James

    BTW..I withhold Romans 9 that you brought up...for it is way to easy for a Calvinist. :)
    I will address Romans 9 after 1Cor....if you wish. It has been sometime since we(the board) have looked at it in detail. Maybe there are some new views.
     
    #23 Jarthur001, Jul 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2006
  4. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Yet I hold to my position and say you must count to 16 for full understanding.
    0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, C, D, E, and F.

    Which of course makes me a hyper-Cal....I mean hyper-geek.
     
    #24 Jarthur001, Jul 16, 2006
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    If He sees you believe then He "foreknows".
    2. If He see you believe of which He certainly then foreknew then He elected you to salvation because you believed.
    3. If he sees you believe he foreknows you and elects you to Salvation by predestinating you to be conformed to His image.
    You keep going back and forth with time which God does not have time.
    It is all the same lets take pre-arrangement when He sees you believe then "forethought, pre-arrangement that you be called, conformed to the image of His son, justified and Glorified, for God has no restrictions of time as man has. You are failing to grasp that God does not have to go back to the beginning for He is there as He is here. God sees all in a moment, the beginning from the end.
    You continue to fall back to the man and time and forget that God does not have time.
    You do believe in an all knowing God don’t you?

    If you want to talk about how man sees things then we can talk about foreknew, foreordained but God does not see that way but sees all in a moment.

    I agree but His foreknowledge of persons is that He sees who believes and who does not. He does not will sin on some and righteous on others but wills a choice on all but sees what their choice is and that is the foreknowledge and those He sees believe, then He actually saves and glorifies them.

    James I agree with you that it is who the Father draws for God sees who believes, calls them (draw), then predestinates them to be conformed to the image of His son, He justifies by the blood, He glorifies them even though glorify is in the future for us God has already saw us being glorified for he is all in all, everlasting to everlasting. I guess the strongest way to put it is that God knows how we shall all die and when for He sees it!!! peace

    Again, do you believe in an all knowing God??
     
    #25 Brother Bob, Jul 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2006
  6. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Dale;
    You miss the point. It is not as if God looks into the future and can change things. He see in a moment it happening. How can you change something that is already happened for God has not time. Any way the Scripture says He changes not.
     
    #26 Brother Bob, Jul 16, 2006
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
     
    #27 Revmitchell, Jul 16, 2006
  8. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg New Member

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    JArthur:

    Please don't HEX this thread!!
     
    #28 ktn4eg, Jul 16, 2006
  9. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hello Bob,

    You said..
    This is just not in the Bible. You have everything backwards. Election is comes before faith and is clear many times over.

    He Choose us before we choose him….not he choose us after we choose him.

    One thing is clear, I have not expressed this in a way that you understand. I will be short and bold with this.

    Foreseeing has nothing to do with election other then God knows all things.

    Foreknowing has nothing to do with how we know time in Gods eyes. God KNOWS and that is it. Foreknowing is an anthropomorphism for our understand of God and His knowing as it relates to time.

    Forknowing is of those whom God elected to salvation

    Now..to replay your view once again..
    I'm not sure you want to stick to "no time" or not. Lets play this out.
     
    #29 Jarthur001, Jul 16, 2006
  10. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    So..you are saying that God was helpless to change it to be any other way?
     
    #30 Dale-c, Jul 16, 2006
  11. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You say this is not in the Bible. I ask you do you believe that God is "timeless" and a "all knowing" God?

    He willed us to be able to choose.
    He did not will us to sin.
    He did not will us to righteous.
    He did not will us to believe.
    He did not will us to unbelieve.
    He did see which one we did if He is an all Knowing God.

    I will attempt to explain a different way about "foreknowledge".

    I spoke earlier that God knows how and when we are going to die. Do you believe this?

    You say election comes before faith but not according to Apostle Paul it does not.


    Acts, chapter 16
    "30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

    "31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
     
    #31 Brother Bob, Jul 16, 2006
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  12. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    #32 Brother Bob, Jul 16, 2006
  13. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Of course, do you not believe that?
     
    #33 Dale-c, Jul 16, 2006
  14. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    So He willed to do something that would limit His power?
     
    #34 Dale-c, Jul 16, 2006
  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You say it limits His power. I say "in His power" he willed it. Takes nothing away from God. God made man subject to vanity. Did that take away some of His power?
     
    #35 Brother Bob, Jul 16, 2006
  16. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    This is ridiculous. We haven't posted much scripture lately. THe point is, we don't have to argue this way, the Bible tells us the truth. It clearly states that WE are predestinated.
    You don't believe that. I can't make you believe that.
    I have posted what the Bible says, you say it doesn't say what it really says...not much more to argue about.
     
    #36 Dale-c, Jul 16, 2006
  17. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Man's power? Yes. God's Power? No.
     
    #37 Dale-c, Jul 16, 2006
  18. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Maybe I can explain now. If God knows when and how we are going to die then he according to us (man) He has foreknowledge of our death does He not, and that is because He sees all things right? Well our death has not happened, but God knows when and how that is going to happen.
    The same is true with our Salvation. He according to (man or time) had foreknowledge before the world began whether we would believe or not believe the same as he has foreknowledge of our death, to which you have already agreed. For the same reason He foreknows our death, He foreknew our belief or non-belief, and if it was belief in Jesus, He called us, predestinated us to be conformed to the image of His Son, justified us and glorified us even though that is in the future as far as man is concerned, for we have time but according to God who is timeless, He has already saw it. I hope this explains my belief better. Peace :flower:
     
    #38 Brother Bob, Jul 16, 2006
  19. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I just posted that I do believe we are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son.
     
    #39 Brother Bob, Jul 16, 2006
  20. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Timeless..yes
    Electing only after someone choose. NO!! The only time we see 2 way choosing is God chooses 1st and then Man choose next. Do you have a verse that shows man choosing beofre God? I would like to see it.

    The text we are looking at and you have not addressed...says your view is wrong.

    He did not will us to sin.
    Pharaoh was MADE only to be in power, so that he would say NO to God.

    He did not will us to righteous.
    our text says other wise..
    He did not will us to believe.

    He did not will us to unbelieve.
    Right..no need to.


    He did see which one we did if He is an all Knowing God.
    ?

    Yes
     
    #40 Jarthur001, Jul 16, 2006
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