3 classes of People

[webdog]

Bob, if you set out to do something, and you have knowledge that something won't happen the way you want, before it happens, woudln't you change something to get your desired outcome?

No, not always. I knew prior to having children that my son would someday do something that would hurt himself and hurt others. This knowledge comes because he's human with a sin nature. Did this stop me from having children? No. I could have prevented my son's future actions by not having him in the first place.

What you say when you say God wants all, but knows NOT all will come, then still does the same thing....seems a bit unwise does it not?

I matters not what we consider "wise".

God is all wise. All powerful.
He knows the future because He Causes the future.

Careful, you're starting to sound like johnp. This is hyper calvinism, and makes God the "cause" of man's sin.

 

[npetreley]

Sorry, but you guys are ALL wrong!!

There are really 10 kinds of people:

1) Those who understand binary, and

0) Those who don't!!! :laugh: :laugh:

Lots of people make this same mistake, but it's only 1, not 10. The first bit has two states, 0 and 1. That's why it's binary. 10 would include 00, 01, 10, which is 3 different states (even though you end up with the decimal number 2, it starts with 0). So there are 1 kinds of people:

1) those who understand binary, and

0) those who don't.

Here's how to tell how geeky a person is: Ask them to count to 3.

1, 2, 3 = normal person

0, 1, 2 = geek

00, 01, 10 = ultrageek

 

[Jarthur001]

Bob, I can greatly understand and agree with Gods view of time, space and matter. In fact the trinity can be seen in this understanding and is a good study. God has no clock and sees 1000 years as if it was a day. To Him to choose NOW may mean He choose 8 million years ago, going by our clock. The reason why I do not support your view has nothing to do with time, space and matter and how God relates to them. I disagree in 3 fold.

1) You may be crossing words here.

proeido {pro-i'-do} see proorao 4308
1) to foresee

Is found in 2 places

Act 2:31 He seeing this before 4275 spake 2980 of 4012 the resurrection 386 of Christ 5547, that 3754 his 846 soul 5590 was 2641 0 not 3756 left 2641 in 1519 hell 86, neither 3761 his 846 flesh 4561 did see 1492 corruption 1312.

Gal 3:8 And 1161 the scripture 1124, foreseeing 4275 that 3754 God 2316 would justify 1344 the heathen 1484 through 1537 faith 4102, preached before the gospel 4283 unto Abraham 11, [saying], 3754 In 1722 thee 4671 shall 1757 0 all 3956 nations 1484 be blessed 1757

Proeido is never used toward the elect although it is true God did also see this.

proginosko {prog-in-oce'-ko} 4267
1) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
2) to predestinate

Proginosko always is talking about people. This is used 5 times in the Bible. 3 times about God toward us. You could force your meaning on one text. But there is more to look at in Peter..

Rom 8:29 For 3754 whom 3739 he did foreknow 4267 , he 4309 0 also 2532 did predestinate 4309 [to be] conformed 4832 to the image 1504 of his 846 Son 5207, that 1519 he 846 might be 1511 the firstborn 4416 among 1722 many 4183 brethren 80.

Rom 11:2 God 2316 hath 683 0 not 3756 cast away 683 his 846 people 2992 which 3739 he foreknew 4267 . 2228 Wot ye 1492 not 3756 what 5101 the scripture 1124 saith 3004 of 1722 Elias 2243? how 5613 he maketh intercession 1793 to God 2316 against 2596 Israel 2474, saying 3004 ,

1Pe 1:20 Who verily 3303 was foreordained 4267 before 4253 the foundation 2602 of the world 2889, but 1161 was manifest 5319 in 1909 these last 2078 times 5550 for 1223 you 5209,

I'll get to Peter in a few..

Now..Look at one more word.

prognosis {prog'-no-sis} 4268

1) foreknowledge
2) forethought, pre-arrangement

Act 2:23 Him 5126, being delivered 1560 by the determinate 3724 counsel 1012 and 2532 foreknowledge 4268 of God 2316, ye have taken 2983 , and by 1223 wicked 459 hands 5495 have crucified 4362 and slain 337 :

1Pe 1:2 Elect 1588 according 2596 to the foreknowledge 4268 of God 2316 the Father 3962, through 1722 sanctification 38 of the Spirit 4151, unto 1519 obedience 5218 and 2532 sprinkling 4473 of the blood 129 of Jesus 2424 Christ 5547: Grace 5485 unto you 5213, and 2532 peace 1515, be multiplied 4129 .

Prognosis is taken from proginosko,

In 1Pe 1:2, the word for "foreknowledge" is the same as "foreordain" in the twentieth verse of the same chapter, where the meaning cannot be "foreknowledge" about Christ. God's foreknowledge about persons is without limitations. His foreknowledge of persons is limited to those who are actually saved and glorified.

Next…

2) As said before..this view removes reason for choosing from Gods decree to Gods odligation to man. Yet this is not what we see in each text.

Look at the verse above again…

Romans 8…
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 11..
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

The casting away...if true, would be a decree by God, for only He has the power to do so.

Act 2…
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

In each of these passages…it is talking about Gods decree and not upon just seeing something done for the action is done of His own will and purpose.

3) Last…the word Foresaw, is not in the text of 1 Cor.

But..it does say it is to bring Him glory.

In Christ..James

BTW..I withhold Romans 9 that you brought up...for it is way to easy for a Calvinist.
I will address Romans 9 after 1Cor....if you wish. It has been sometime since we(the board) have looked at it in detail. Maybe there are some new views.

 

[Jarthur001]

Lots of people make this same mistake, but it's only 1, not 10. The first bit has two states, 0 and 1. That's why it's binary. 10 would include 00, 01, 10, which is 3 different states (even though you end up with the decimal number 2, it starts with 0). So there are 1 kinds of people:

1) those who understand binary, and

0) those who don't.

Here's how to tell how geeky a person is: Ask them to count to 3.

1, 2, 3 = normal person

0, 1, 2 = geek

00, 01, 10 = ultrageek

Yet I hold to my position and say you must count to 16 for full understanding.
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, C, D, E, and F.

Which of course makes me a hyper-Cal....I mean hyper-geek.

 

[Brother Bob]

1) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
2) to predestinate

If He sees you believe then He "foreknows".
2. If He see you believe of which He certainly then foreknew then He elected you to salvation because you believed.
3. If he sees you believe he foreknows you and elects you to Salvation by predestinating you to be conformed to His image.
You keep going back and forth with time which God does not have time.

1) foreknowledge
2) forethought, pre-arrangement

It is all the same lets take pre-arrangement when He sees you believe then "forethought, pre-arrangement that you be called, conformed to the image of His son, justified and Glorified, for God has no restrictions of time as man has. You are failing to grasp that God does not have to go back to the beginning for He is there as He is here. God sees all in a moment, the beginning from the end.

Prognosis is taken from proginosko,

In 1Pe 1:2, the word for "foreknowledge" is the same as "foreordain" in the twentieth verse of the same chapter, where the meaning cannot be "foreknowledge" about Christ. God's foreknowledge about persons is without limitations. His foreknowledge of persons is limited to those who are actually saved and glorified.

Next…

2) As said before..this view removes reason for choosing from Gods decree to Gods odligation to man. Yet this is not what we see in each text.

Look at the verse above again…


Quote:
Romans 8…
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Quote:
Romans 11..
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

The casting away...if true, would be a decree by God, for only He has the power to do so.

Quote:
Act 2…
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:



In each of these passages…it is talking about Gods decree and not upon just seeing something done for the action is done of His own will and purpose.

3) Last…the word Foresaw, is not in the text of 1 Cor.

But..it does say it is to bring Him glory.

In Christ..James

You continue to fall back to the man and time and forget that God does not have time.
You do believe in an all knowing God don’t you?

If you want to talk about how man sees things then we can talk about foreknew, foreordained but God does not see that way but sees all in a moment.

His foreknowledge of persons is limited to those who are actually saved and glorified.

I agree but His foreknowledge of persons is that He sees who believes and who does not. He does not will sin on some and righteous on others but wills a choice on all but sees what their choice is and that is the foreknowledge and those He sees believe, then He actually saves and glorifies them.

James I agree with you that it is who the Father draws for God sees who believes, calls them (draw), then predestinates them to be conformed to the image of His son, He justifies by the blood, He glorifies them even though glorify is in the future for us God has already saw us being glorified for he is all in all, everlasting to everlasting. I guess the strongest way to put it is that God knows how we shall all die and when for He sees it!!! peace

Again, do you believe in an all knowing God??

 

[Brother Bob]

Let me ask you this? Why doesn't God change something if that is the case?
Bob, if you set out to do something, and you have knowledge that something won't happen the way you want, before it happens, woudln't you change something to get your desired outcome?

Dale;
You miss the point. It is not as if God looks into the future and can change things. He see in a moment it happening. How can you change something that is already happened for God has not time. Any way the Scripture says He changes not.

 

[Revmitchell]

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[ktn4eg]

JArthur:

Please don't HEX this thread!!

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

You said..

If He sees you believe then He "foreknows".
2. If He see you believe of which He certainly then foreknew then He elected you to salvation because you believed.
3. If he sees you believe he foreknows you and elects you to Salvation by predestinating you to be conformed to His image.
You keep going back and forth with time which God does not have time.

This is just not in the Bible. You have everything backwards. Election is comes before faith and is clear many times over.

He Choose us before we choose him….not he choose us after we choose him.

One thing is clear, I have not expressed this in a way that you understand. I will be short and bold with this.

Foreseeing has nothing to do with election other then God knows all things.

Foreknowing has nothing to do with how we know time in Gods eyes. God KNOWS and that is it. Foreknowing is an anthropomorphism for our understand of God and His knowing as it relates to time.

Forknowing is of those whom God elected to salvation

Now..to replay your view once again..
I'm not sure you want to stick to "no time" or not. Lets play this out.

God gives life and elects as he does for He knows as He makes who is the elect and who is not.

God gives life and damns as He does for He knows as He makes who the damn are.

To God this is all at once. To man this happened before the world was made.
Is this what your saying?

 

[Dale-c]

Dale;
You miss the point. It is not as if God looks into the future and can change things. He see in a moment it happening. How can you change something that is already happened for God has not time. Any way the Scripture says He changes not.

So..you are saying that God was helpless to change it to be any other way?

 

[Brother Bob]

If He sees you believe then He "foreknows".
2. If He see you believe of which He certainly then foreknew then He elected you to salvation because you believed.
3. If he sees you believe he foreknows you and elects you to Salvation by predestinating you to be conformed to His image.
You keep going back and forth with time which God does not have time.
This is just not in the Bible. You have everything backwards. Election is comes before faith and is clear many times over.

You say this is not in the Bible. I ask you do you believe that God is "timeless" and a "all knowing" God?

He willed us to be able to choose.
He did not will us to sin.
He did not will us to righteous.
He did not will us to believe.
He did not will us to unbelieve.
He did see which one we did if He is an all Knowing God.

I will attempt to explain a different way about "foreknowledge".

I spoke earlier that God knows how and when we are going to die. Do you believe this?

You say election comes before faith but not according to Apostle Paul it does not.


Acts, chapter 16
"30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[Brother Bob]

[Dale;
You miss the point. It is not as if God looks into the future and can change things. He see in a moment it happening. How can you change something that is already happened for God has not time. Any way the Scripture says He changes not.
So..you are saying that God was helpless to change it to be any other way?/QUOTE]
God can and did anything He wanted to do. You still are looking at it as if God was only looking in the future as men do but God is timeless.
God sees all at once. He saw us believe. He would have to start all over to change it.
He willed us to be able to choose
He did not will us to sin
He did not will us to righteous
He did not will us to believe
He did not will us to unbelieve
He only willed us a choice
He sees what that choice is, He sees what the choice is before the world began, He sees what the choice is now, He sees what the choice is in the end.

I will ask you same question I asked James, Do you believe God know when and how we are going to die?

 

[Dale-c]

I will ask you same question I asked James, Do you believe God know when and how we are going to die?

Of course, do you not believe that?

 

[Dale-c]

He only willed us a choice

So He willed to do something that would limit His power?

 

[Brother Bob]

So He willed to do something that would limit His power?

You say it limits His power. I say "in His power" he willed it. Takes nothing away from God. God made man subject to vanity. Did that take away some of His power?

 

[Dale-c]

This is ridiculous. We haven't posted much scripture lately. THe point is, we don't have to argue this way, the Bible tells us the truth. It clearly states that WE are predestinated.
You don't believe that. I can't make you believe that.
I have posted what the Bible says, you say it doesn't say what it really says...not much more to argue about.

 

[Dale-c]

God made man subject to vanity. Did that take away some of His power?

Man's power? Yes. God's Power? No.

 

[Brother Bob]

I will ask you same question I asked James, Do you believe God know when and how we are going to die?
Of course, do you not believe that?

Maybe I can explain now. If God knows when and how we are going to die then he according to us (man) He has foreknowledge of our death does He not, and that is because He sees all things right? Well our death has not happened, but God knows when and how that is going to happen.
The same is true with our Salvation. He according to (man or time) had foreknowledge before the world began whether we would believe or not believe the same as he has foreknowledge of our death, to which you have already agreed. For the same reason He foreknows our death, He foreknew our belief or non-belief, and if it was belief in Jesus, He called us, predestinated us to be conformed to the image of His Son, justified us and glorified us even though that is in the future as far as man is concerned, for we have time but according to God who is timeless, He has already saw it. I hope this explains my belief better. Peace :flower:

 

[Brother Bob]

WE are predestinated.
You don't believe that. I can't make you believe that.

I just posted that I do believe we are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son.

 

[Jarthur001]

You say this is not in the Bible. I ask you do you believe that God is "timeless" and a "all knowing" God?

Timeless..yes
Electing only after someone choose. NO!! The only time we see 2 way choosing is God chooses 1st and then Man choose next. Do you have a verse that shows man choosing beofre God? I would like to see it.

He willed us to be able to choose.

The text we are looking at and you have not addressed...says your view is wrong.

1 Cor...
23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."[d]

He did not will us to sin.
Pharaoh was MADE only to be in power, so that he would say NO to God.

He did not will us to righteous.
our text says other wise..

8He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."[d]

God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

He did not will us to believe.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God

He did not will us to unbelieve.
Right..no need to.


He did see which one we did if He is an all Knowing God.
?

I spoke earlier that God knows how and when we are going to die. Do you believe this?

Yes