3 Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ

[OldRegular]

It should also be noted that this all predated the bible being totally translated into all the books. The invention of the printing press. The scripture now could be given to everyone in printed form. Until the invention of the printing press the Scriptures were unknown to the common people. Each copy of scripture to this point had to be transcribed by hand. Limiting the number of Bibles available. The printing press came to the forefront in the middle of the 16th century. John Gutenberg of Germany invented the printing press in about A.D. 1550. The first completed Book printed in Latin known as the “Mazarin Bible” or the “Bible of forty-two lines” because there were forty-two lines to a page. God gave man the ability to print His word. With this God-given, God-sent and God-timed invention of printing a new study of the Bible began. Lost truths were rediscovered. As many did, Calvin, Henry and John Knox among them. So too would the ability to find the dispensations and with the bible translated even these truths could be found. The Anabaptist believed in a return of Christ, they also believed in a Kingdom to come just as Henry and Calvin did.

Notice too the parts in red in your quote (my emphasis) follows right along with the teaching of the Rapture, Snatching away whatever it is termed. When the Rapture occurs believers face the Bema seat that is the judgment seat of Christ, 1st Corinthians 3.The dead in Christ rise first and we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (snatched away) even they believed a rapture would take place it is in Red white. Doctrines developed as the bible translations and printing made the bible more and more available and therefore doctrinal truths rediscovered.

You must be joking!:laugh:You can't really be serious can you!:laugh:You honestly believe that nonsense?:laugh:I can believe that John Nelson Darby deluded a multitude of people with his new revelation but Lost truths were rediscovered. :tonofbricks: Do you really expect anyone to believe that the authors of those Confessions did not have the complete Bible.

The pre-trib-rapture nonsense is a figment of John Nelson Darby's imagination while he was recuperating from a riding accident though he called it a "new revelation".

 

[OldRegular]

It should also be noted that this all predated the bible being totally translated into all the books. The invention of the printing press. The scripture now could be given to everyone in printed form. Until the invention of the printing press the Scriptures were unknown to the common people. Each copy of scripture to this point had to be transcribed by hand. Limiting the number of Bibles available. The printing press came to the forefront in the middle of the 16th century. John Gutenberg of Germany invented the printing press in about A.D. 1550.

Wring on all counts! The first confession I mentioned was written in 1580, 1581. The Geneva Bible was published in 1560, the KJV in 1611! I present the following for your edification and education!

The Gutenberg Bible is the first substantial book printed in the West with moveable metal type. Before its printing in 1454 or 1455, books were either copied by hand or printed from engraved wooden blocks—processes that could take months or years to complete. Johann Gutenberg invented a printing press that revolutionized the distribution of knowledge by making it possible to produce many copies of a work in a relatively short amount of time. Learn more about the Gutenberg Bible through the links below.

http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/permanent/gutenbergbible/

The History of the English Bible

The first hand-written English language manuscripts of the Bible were produced in 1380's AD by Oxford theologian John Wycliff (Wycliffe). Curiously, he was also the inventor of bifocal eyeglasses. Wycliff spent many of his years arguing against the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church which he believed to be contrary to the Bible. Though he died a nonviolent death, the Pope was so infuriated by his teachings that 44 years after Wycliff had died, he ordered the bones to be dug-up, crushed, and scattered in the river!

Gutenburg invented the printing press in the 1450's, and the first book to ever be printed was the Bible. It was, however, in Latin rather than English. With the onset of the Reformation in the early 1500's, the first printings of the Bible in the English language were produced...illegally and at great personal risk of those involved.

William Tyndale was the Captain of the Army of reformers,and was their spiritual leader. He worked most of his translating years alone, but had help from time to time as God discerned he needed it. Indirectly, he had the help of Erasmus in the publication of his Greek/Latin New Testament printed in 1516. Erasmus and the great printer, scholar, and reformer John Froben published the first non-Latin Vulgate text of the Bible in a millennium. Latin was the language for centuries of scholarship and it was understood by virtually every European who could read or write. Erasmus' Latin was not the Vulgate translation of Jerome, but his own fresh rendering of the Greek New Testament text that he had collated from six or seven partial New Testament manuscripts into a complete Greek New Testament.

The Latin that Erasmus translated from the Greek revealed enormous corruptions in the Vulgate's integrity amongst the rank and file scholars, many of whom were already convinced that the established church was doomed by virtue of its evil hierarchy. Pope Leo X's declaration that "the fable of Christ was very profitable to him" infuriated the people of God.

With Erasmus' work in 1516, the die was cast. Martin Luther declared his intolerance with the Roman Curch's corruption on Halloween in 1517, by nailing 95 Theses of Contention to the Wittenberg Door. Luther, who would be exiled in the months following the Diet of Worms Council in 1521 that was designed to martyr him, would translate the New Testament into German from Erasmus' Greek/Latin New Testament and publish it in September of 1522. Simultaneously, William Tyndale would become burdened to translate that same Erasmus text into English. It could not, however, be done in England.

Tyndale showed up on Luther's doorstep in 1525, and by year's end had translated the New Testament into English. Tyndale was fluent in eight languages and is considered by many to be the primary architect of today's English language. Already hunted because of the rumor spread abroad that such a project was underway, inquisitors and bounty hunters were on Tyndale's trail to abort the effort. God foiled their plans, and in 1525/6 Tyndale printed the first English New Testament. They were burned as soon as the Bishop could confiscate them, but copies trickled through and actually ended up in the bedroom of King Henry VIII. The more the King and Bishop resisted its distribution, the more fascinated the public at large became. The church declared it contained thousands of errors as they torched hundreds of New Testaments confiscated by the clergy, while in fact, they burned them because they could find no errors at all. One risked death by burning if caught in mere possession of Tyndale's forbidden books.

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/81.htm

Introduction to the Geneva Bible

Also Known as
The Pilgrim's Bible

Overview
Despite being virtually unknown today, the Geneva Bible is most revolutionary of all English Bibles. It was born out of persecution and takes its name from the initial city of publication. When Mary I, also known as "Bloody Mary," took the throne in 1553, English Bibles were made illegal and heavy persecution broke-out against Protestants and proponents of English Scripture. Hundreds fled England and many of these exiles settled in Geneva, Switzerland, where they produced a new English Biblethe Geneva Bible.

The Geneva Bible was the first English version to be translated entirely from the original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Though the text is principally just a revision of William Tyndales earlier work of 1534, Tyndale only translated the New Testament and the Old Testament through 2 Chronicles before he was imprisoned. The English refugees living in Geneva completed the translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew to English for the first time. The work was led by William Whittingham.

When the Geneva translation of the New Testament appeared in 1557 and the entire Bible in 1560, it was innovative in both text and format, and quickly became the household Bible of English speaking people. It was the first English Bible to have modern verse divisions as well as modern chapter divisions. It was the first Bible to use italics to indicate words not in the original language and the first Bible to change the values of ancient coins into English pound sterling equivalents. It was also the first to use plain Roman type, which was more readable than the old Gothic type, and it was in a handy quarto size for easy use. With prologues before each book, extensive marginal notes, and a brief concordance, the Geneva Bible was in fact the first English "study Bible."

Between its first edition of 1560 and its last edition in 1644, 160 editions, totaling around a half million Bibles, were produced. And for the first time common people could not only understand the words in the Bible, they could actually own one. Its widespread use first solidified the English language among the common people, not the 1611 King James Bible as many assume. Actually, the King James Bible required decades to surpass the popularity of the Geneva and supplant it from the hearts of the English speaking world.

In fact, the Geneva Bible was the principal English Bible initially brought to American soil, making it the Bible that shaped early American life and impacted Colonial culture more than any other.

http://logosresourcepages.org/idx_Pages/idx_geneva.htm

 

[revmwc]

You must be joking!:laugh:You can't really be serious can you!:laugh:You honestly believe that nonsense?:laugh:I can believe that John Nelson Darby deluded a multitude of people with his new revelation but Lost truths were rediscovered. :tonofbricks: Do you really expect anyone to believe that the authors of those Confessions did not have the complete Bible.

The pre-trib-rapture nonsense is a figment of John Nelson Darby's imagination while he was recuperating from a riding accident though he called it a "new revelation".

So you believe everyone had a complete bible from the 1st century on? That they had people dedicated to transcribing the whole entire bible from A.D. 100 forward. When history says that only the clergy and just a very few of them had the entire bible, hand written by others. Why would you not think that lost truths could not be discovered. I suppose by your statement that when you read a chapter you completely understand it right then and there. When almost everybody reads through and several verses jump out then you reread and understand more. So yes lost truths are there.

 

[OldRegular]

So you believe everyone had a complete bible from the 1st century on? That they had people dedicated to transcribing the whole entire bible from A.D. 100 forward. When history says that only the clergy and just a very few of them had the entire bible, hand written by others. Why would you not think that lost truths could not be discovered. I suppose by your statement that when you read a chapter you completely understand it right then and there. When almost everybody reads through and several verses jump out then you reread and understand more. So yes lost truths are there.

I was not talking about everyone. You asked:

My turn to ask what (well known) scholars support your view?

I responded:

Those Scholars responsible for Baptist Confessions of Faith!

These Scholars obviously had access to the Bible. And they were Scholars, not fly by the seat proponents of Darby's false doctrine!

 

[revmwc]

I was not talking about everyone. You asked:



I responded:



These Scholars obviously had access to the Bible. And they were Scholars, not fly by the seat proponents of Darby's false doctrine!

So the teaching of Calvin must be rejected because these men didn't believe in the 5 points of Calvin so it must be rejected, is that your point. Or Calvins doctrine could be accepted even though it doesn't align and yet Darby's can't. Lost truths were rediscovered as the Bible came to print. More were able to read and understand it and develop those lost truths as the Holy Spirit lead them.

 

[OldRegular]

So you believe everyone had a complete bible from the 1st century on? That they had people dedicated to transcribing the whole entire bible from A.D. 100 forward. When history says that only the clergy and just a very few of them had the entire bible, hand written by others. Why would you not think that lost truths could not be discovered. I suppose by your statement that when you read a chapter you completely understand it right then and there. When almost everybody reads through and several verses jump out then you reread and understand more. So yes lost truths are there.

And it is certain that the false doctrine of the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church invented by John Nelson Darby "out of whole cloth" is not one of those lost truths! Actually there are no "lost" truths in the Bible even though Darby claimed to find them. There are simply TRUTHS that people twist and mutilate to justify their false beliefs!

I presented you information when the entire Bible was translated to English, the Geneva Bible. You can purchase that Bible today. The Geneva Bible was the Bible used by the Pilgrims and other early settlers of this country. It was replaced by the KJV Bible in popularity around 1630-1640!

 

[Calypsis4]

The pre-trib-rapture nonsense is a figment of John Nelson Darby's imagination while he was recuperating from a riding accident though he called it a "new revelation".
__________________

I personally don't agree with that view. Darby's views notwithstanding, the pre-trib rapture is the only position in which all the pieces of the prophetic puzzle fall into place logically.

That pre-trib promise is found in Luke 21:

Lu 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That's the pre-trib rapture and it cannot be anything else. Why?

1. We are told that 'this generation' (that is, the one to come, for it hasn't happened yet) will see all the prophecies about Christ's coming fulfilled.

2. It is clear that there are those who will escape the snare, vs 35 (tribulation) to come and there are those who will not escape. I Thess. 5:3.

3. Those who escape (are raptured) are counted worthy to meet with the Lord personally. This matches what Paul said about meeting the Lord in the air, I Thess. 4:17.

 

[OldRegular]

The pre-trib-rapture nonsense is a figment of John Nelson Darby's imagination while he was recuperating from a riding accident though he called it a "new revelation".
__________________

I personally don't agree with that view. Darby's views notwithstanding, the pre-trib rapture is the only position in which all the pieces of the prophetic puzzle fall into place logically.

That pre-trib promise is found in Luke 21:

Lu 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Has that generation passed away?

 

[OldRegular]

So the teaching of Calvin must be rejected because these men didn't believe in the 5 points of Calvin so it must be rejected, is that your point. Or Calvins doctrine could be accepted even though it doesn't align and yet Darby's can't. Lost truths were rediscovered as the Bible came to print. More were able to read and understand it and develop those lost truths as the Holy Spirit lead them.

I am not a Calvinist but do believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace. I can support those doctrines from Scripture.

The doctrine of the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church is false and, therefore, cannot be supported by Scripture.

The doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church is false and, therefore, cannot be supported by Scripture.

The entire doctrine of Dispensationalism is false and, therefore, cannot be supported by Scripture.

Of course mentioning the Darby, Scofield Chafer, Ryrie doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church is anathema on this BB and cannot be mentioned in peril of banishment!

 

[OldRegular]

So the teaching of Calvin must be rejected because these men didn't believe in the 5 points of Calvin so it must be rejected, is that your point. Or Calvins doctrine could be accepted even though it doesn't align and yet Darby's can't. Lost truths were rediscovered as the Bible came to print. More were able to read and understand it and develop those lost truths as the Holy Spirit lead them.

You will have to identify THESE MEN!

 

[Calypsis4]

Has that generation passed away?

No, because not all the prophecies have been fulfilled.

Proof that 'this generation' is not always the one existing when the prophecy was spoken:

Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mt 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Neither the men of Nineveh nor the 'queen of the south' have risen in judgment of those people..........yet. So the people of 'this generation' is a yet future one.

 

[OldRegular]

No, because not all the prophecies have been fulfilled.

Proof that 'this generation' is not always the one existing when the prophecy was spoken:

Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mt 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Neither the men of Nineveh nor the 'queen of the south' have risen in judgment of those people..........yet. So the people of 'this generation' is a yet future one.

Consider the context:

Matthew 12:38-42
38. Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

"This generation" is the generation at the first coming of Jesus Christ. They will be judged by men of Nineveh who repented at the teaching of Jonah because one greater than Jonah, Jesus Christ, was present with "this generation"! Jesus Christ was in their presence yet they rejected him.

Jesus Christ makes a similar judgment against "this generation" in the following Scripture:

Matthew 11:21-24
21. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

 

[Yeshua1]

Consider the context:

Matthew 12:38-42
38. Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

"This generation" is the generation at the first coming of Jesus Christ. They will be judged by men of Nineveh who repented at the teaching of Jonah because one greater than Jonah, Jesus Christ, was present with "this generation"! Jesus Christ was in their presence yet they rejected him.

Jesus Christ makes a similar judgment against "this generation" in the following Scripture:

Matthew 11:21-24
21. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

So when was the great and terrible day of the lord fulfilled unto isreal, and when did she have the great tribulation experiences?

And when did the messiah return to earth to rule over them?

 

[Calypsis4]

Consider the context:

Matthew 12:38-42
38. Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

"This generation" is the generation at the first coming of Jesus Christ. They will be judged by men of Nineveh who repented at the teaching of Jonah because one greater than Jonah, Jesus Christ, was present with "this generation"! Jesus Christ was in their presence yet they rejected him.

Jesus Christ makes a similar judgment against "this generation" in the following Scripture:

Matthew 11:21-24
21. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

I believe that Luke 21:34-35 is clear enough. There will be those who will escape to meet with the Lord, and those who will not escape ....but it (the tribulation) will ensnare the whole earth.

Pardon the pun but that is an inescapable conclusion.:tonofbricks:

The judgment Jesus spoke of has not taken place yet and those in sin and unbelief will be left behind to suffer that judgment.

 

[OldRegular]

I believe that Luke 21:34-35 is clear enough. There will be those who will escape to meet with the Lord, and those who will not escape ....but it (the tribulation) will ensnare the whole earth.

Pardon the pun but that is an inescapable conclusion.:tonofbricks:

The judgment Jesus spoke of has not taken place yet and those in sin and unbelief will be left behind to suffer that judgment.

You are mistaken. Israel was judged as follows:

1. Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

2. The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem as promised by Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:1,2.

 

[OldRegular]

So when was the great and terrible day of the lord fulfilled unto isreal, and when did she have the great tribulation experiences?

And when did the messiah return to earth to rule over them?

Explain the following Scripture in light of your supposed earthly millennial reign!

John 18:36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[Calypsis4]

You are mistaken. Israel was judged as follows:

1. Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

2. The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem as promised by Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:1,2.

That was just the beginning of the judgment.....and has been continuing upon the Jews and will be until the 2nd coming of Christ when all Israel will be saved in a single day.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

By the very nature of this prophecy it's fulfillment is yet to come for it has never occurred in the past. Jesus did not return in A.D. 70 as the scriptures promised that He would....visibly & physically.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Rev. 1:7

Friend, this prophecy was written by John about 25 yrs AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70...so you need to rethink your position on this issue. The second coming has not yet occurred and neither has the tribulation mentioned in Luke 21 or in the book of Revelation.


But nothing you alluded to in Matt. 21 negates what Jesus said about the rapture in Luke 21. You see, what happened in A.D. 70 involved only Jerusalem...but what will happen according to Luke will involve the 'whole earth'.

 

[OldRegular]

That was just the beginning of the judgment.....and has been continuing upon the Jews and will be until the 2nd coming of Christ when all Israel will be saved in a single day.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The Deliverer came out of Sion 2000 years ago and the Jews rejected HIM. Furthermore, it is nonsense to say all the Jews will be saved in one day!

By the very nature of this prophecy it's fulfillment is yet to come for it has never occurred in the past. Jesus did not return in A.D. 70 as the scriptures promised that He would....visibly & physically.

No HE did not return in 70AD but he still fulfilled HIS promise of Matthew 24.1, 2.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Rev. 1:7

That is the Second Coming when all the dead will be raised some to the Resurrection of Life, some to the Resurrection of Damnation {John 5:28, 29}. This done at the White Throne Judgment when the present heavens and earth will be no more and GOD will dwell with all HIS Redeemed in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Friend, this prophecy was written by John about 25 yrs AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70...so you need to rethink your position on this issue. The second coming has not yet occurred and neither has the tribulation mentioned in Luke 21 or in the book of Revelation.

Friend! You obviously do not know my position other I am definitely not a Darbyite-pre-trib-"snatching away"-of-the-Church!

But nothing you alluded to in Matt. 21 negates what Jesus said about the rapture in Luke 21. You see, what happened in A.D. 70 involved only Jerusalem...but what will happen according to Luke will involve the 'whole earth'.

There is no "Snatching away" of the Church. That is the brainchild, or should I say "new revelation", of John Nelson Darby about 200 years ago while he was recuperating from an injury!

 

[Calypsis4]

The Deliverer came out of Sion 2000 years ago and the Jews rejected HIM. Furthermore, it is nonsense to say all the Jews will be saved in one day!

Not at all: the scriptures affirm it. It will happen on the very day of the return of Christ at the end of the world (yet to come). Isaiah told us so:

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

That travailing followed by a miraculous change of heart has not occurred for Israel yet... and it did not happen in A.D. 70. The Jews remained in unbelief despite the terrible judgment. They did not experience what the prophet said, "shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" and you are overlooking that detail. Details make the difference.

No HE did not return in 70 AD but he still fulfilled HIS promise of Matthew 24.1, 2.

That part, yes. There is much more to come. You are missing those details also.

That is the Second Coming when all the dead will be raised some to the Resurrection of Life, some to the Resurrection of Damnation {John 5:28, 29}. This done at the White Throne Judgment when the present heavens and earth will be no more and GOD will dwell with all HIS Redeemed in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Of course, but first will come the rapture, the tribulation, the antichrist, and the mark of the beast will all occur...none of which has happened as of yet.

Friend! You obviously do not know my position other I am definitely not a Darbyite-pre-trib-"snatching away"-of-the-Church!

You're right. I don't know much of anything about your position except what you have posted to me. This is only my second day posting on B.B.

There is no "Snatching away" of the Church.

Oh, but there will indeed be such an event. It is the 'Harpazo' I Thessalonians 4:17 Greek; to sieze, to catch away (Strongs Concordance).

That 'harpazo' is also taught in I Corinthians 15:52. All true Christians will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air and we shall be changed immediately. We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.

We will be caught up and we will meet with the Lord above the earth as promised. We will escape the coming terrible tribulation as promised in Luke 21. I look forward to it with all my heart and I seek to convert sinners to Christ because of that promise.

That is the brainchild, or should I say "new revelation", of John Nelson Darby about 200 years ago while he was recuperating from an injury!

No it is not. Quote from Iraneaus: " And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

Then there was Cyprian who said, "Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

Ironic that Cyprian uses the very word for the 'harpazo' that you use in mockery.

Ephraim the Syrian said, " “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord.

It is therefore unjust and not truthful to claim that the pre-trib rapture teaching was invented by Darby, or any other modern scholar for that matter.

 

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It is therefore unjust and not truthful to claim that the pre-trib rapture teaching was invented by Darby, or any other modern scholar for that matter.[/COLOR]

Dispensational scholar Dr. Thomas Ice disagrees with you! He is one of the few dispensationalists around who is not afraid or ashamed to tell the truth.

DARBY'S CONTRIBUTION
Darby is the father of dispensationalism. " Although he was not a systematic theologian, he was an expositor of ' dispensational truth.' He synthesized exegetical truths to show the full story-line of the Bible, God' s activity in human history" (Elmore, 312). Darby' s employment of the hermeneutical principle of literal interpretation for all of Scripture, including prophecy, naturally led to the distinction between Israel and the Church. This resulted, of course, in the understanding that the hopes of Israel and those of the Church were of a different nature. (Crutchfield, 341)

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/AShortHistoryOfDispensationalism.html

Darby is the father of pre-trib-rapture-dispensationalism just as Ellen G. White is the mother of Seventh Day Adventism!