3 Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ

[Edward 1689er]

Do you also spiritualize the Gospel of John? What other Book of Scripture do you feel doesn't mean what it says?

The "Last Trump" is the last trump for the Church, and just as Revelation goes on to show that the Seventh Trumpet is not the end of the Tribulation, even so you will be hard pressed to impose Christ's Return, the resurrection of both living and dead believers, and then reconcile everything else John writes after the Last Trumpet Judgment.

Good luck with that, my friend.


God bless.

Would it not be better to understand the 7 Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls as concurrant rather than chronological. They seem to to be a Recapulation with an increased intensity.

For example, Rev. 11: 15-ff seem to be referring to the End

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[revmwc]

Would it not be better to understand the 7 Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls as concurrant rather than chronological. They seem to to be a Recapulation with an increased intensity.

For example, Rev. 11: 15-ff seem to be referring to the End

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

If you look at what occurs on each trumpet and vial you will see that in most cases they chronologically follow the plagues which hit Egypt in God's battle with Pharaoh to free Israel. God brings judgments Chronologically to mankind. First the flood occurred and destroyed all but 8. Then God brought fire down on Sodom and Gomorrah, God worked those chronologically. Then the plagues on Egypt to free the Israelite people all chronologically. Why would it change in God's judgment of the Tribulation and become concurrent when His past judgment have been Chronological. God is a God of order not a God who works concurrently, everything in its order. Even creation went in order and followed a 6 day Chronological order.

Secondly understand if you see the seven sealed book as a scroll like the scroll or document of redemption in Levitical times, then you understand that it too is done chronologically.
When a man in Levitical times had to sell a piece of property, the terms for redemption were written on a scroll. Sealed with seven seals. Each seal was opened and each contained the terms of redemption, which the kinsman redeemer would need to meet in order to redeem that property. Each had to be met Chronologically.
The seven sealed scroll or book in Revelation contains the terms for the redemption of the earth from the curse, you know the curse when Adam fell, man wasn't the only thing that fell under the curse. The earth did too, thorns and thistles would be fought by man.
Christ must chronologically meet each term to redeem all of creation. He met the terms for mankind's salvation with His death and the blood and He proved He was mans redeemer by His resurrection.
The plagues and the Trumpets, the vials and bowls all follow the chronological order of the opening of the seals. Therefore the trumpets are not concurrent, they must follow God's order of redeeming creation (earth, animal life etc.). When Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation all the terms will have been met and all of creation will have been redeemed.
The Kingdom will see the lion lay down with the Lamb and man and beast will revert back to pre-fall state. With one exception, man will still have an Old Sin Nature, a nature to sin, we see at the end of the Kingdom age, a rebellion against Christ in Revelation 20 and satan musters an army which scripture sands numbers as the sands of the the sea. That is why it must Revelation and the trumpets, plagues and vials must be seen as Chronological not as concurrent.

 

[Edward 1689er]

The recapitulation view of Revelation is very respected by most experts.

Premillennialist Robert Mounce: writes “the continuous chronological approach is not accepted by the majority of contemporary writers” (Revelation, 31). Also “While there is a rather clearly discernible literary development [between the seals, trumpets, and bowls], it is not to represent a corresponding chronological development. The three series cover the same period of travail” (Revelation, 168–69).

Premillennialist Henry Alford (Alford’s Greek Testament, 4:665) states of 11:15, for instance, that “all this forms strong ground for inference that the three series of visions — the seals, trumpets, and vials — are not continuous, but resumptive.”


G. K. Beale (Revelation, 532, 534) writes... “the trumpets go over the same ground as the seal woes, but from a different perspective” and “the bowl woes are temporally parallel with the trumpets.”

 

[Darrell C]

Would it not be better to understand the 7 Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls as concurrant rather than chronological.

Not really, no, because as I said it is the differences, just as the OP points out in regards to the differences which disqualify the events as the same in the two passages.

And how much different do they need to be in order to distinguish them as separate events?

For example:


Revelation 8:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.



Revelation 16

King James Version (KJV)

3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.



While similar in nature, there is a discrepancy in the total of those who die, demanding a separate event, excluding the possibility of concurrence.

It is the differences that tell us we are not looking at concurrence, but that each judgment proceeds after the one before it.

They seem to to be a Recapulation with an increased intensity.

Many take this view. I cannot.

Just as a suggestion, try giving Revelation a look with a sequential order in view, and see if it does not make more sense than it does when we try to force a more symbolic interpretation of it. You will be able to create a timeline which makes it easier to understand.

For example, Rev. 11: 15-ff seem to be referring to the End

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Many believe it does, Those who are Post-Tribulation believers also take this view, however, this requires we ignore the order given by John. Christ's Return is clearly depicted in Revelation 19, and this depiction stands in harmonious consistency with Old Testament Prophecy.

What is in view here, if you stop to think about it, is the fact that the rule of Satan and Antichrist, meaning the leeway they have been given up to this point...ends. From this point out they become powerless against the efforts of God and become players on the stage.

Just as Satan told Christ...


Matthew 4:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.


...and Paul wrote...


2 Corinthians 4:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


...we understand Satan has been given a certain amount of authority in this world. That does not negate the rule and reign of God, nor that He is the Only God, but we have to take this into account.

At the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet Judgment we see God step into physical world and His authority becomes the only authority. We do not see Christ return at this time, and in fact we see that still pending are the Seven Vial judgments, which can be distinguished from the previous two sets of judgments. Unless we discount the fact that these take place we are forced to leave Scripture intact and keep the order of events as they have been given to us.

When Christ does Return, those enemies who suffer through the Seven Vial Judgments are destroyed, and following is that depicted in Matthew 25, which is the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which is not a Rapture event, but in fact is a physical judgment upon the unbelieving, who are destroyed because nothing that offends shall enter into that Kingdom He establishes upon His return.

We see this made clear here:


Luke 17:34-37

King James Version (KJV)

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Some mistake this for a Rapture event, but the opposite is true. Those "taken" (and look at the Greek, lol, very interesting) are, as taught by Christ, physically destroyed, there flesh left as carrion, as taught also in Ezekiel 39.

This corresponds to another Second Coming teaching:


Matthew 24:27-28

King James Version (KJV)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


So you see, when we keep everything in it's proper order, we see that the Return of Christ does not result in a Rapture event, but instead results in believers who are physically alive being "left" to enter into the Kingdom, and unbelievers being "taken" in judgment. And when it comes to resurrection at this time the only resurrection spoken of are those who die in the Tribulation. The dead in Christ are not raised at this time.

He shall gather all for this purpose, setting the believers to one side, and unbelievers to the other. Believers remain alive (not glorified, as in the Rapture described by Paul), and unbelievers die physically (not eternally, as they do in the Great White Throne Judgment which takes place after the Millennial Kingdom). This makes it an impossibility to place the Rapture of the Church during these events. And if we maintain the Word of God we see that after this event comes the Millennial Kingdom, which also coincides with not just the testimony of Biblical Prophecy, but the very Promise of God.

No Promise of God goes unfulfilled my friend, and while some of our brethren see all promises fulfilled, they are hard pressed to keep Scripture intact and have those fulfillments not come up short. For example, seeing the First Century as fulfilling Revelation might seem plausible, and I would go so far to say that it would be in keeping with the multiple applications we see concerning Bible Prophecy, but...in no way can it be said to be fulfilled to the jot and tittle.

That still remains.


God bless.

 

[Edward 1689er]

Not really, no, because as I said it is the differences, just as the OP points out in regards to the differences which disqualify the events as the same in the two passages.

And how much different do they need to be in order to distinguish them as separate events?

For example:


Revelation 8:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.



Revelation 16

King James Version (KJV)

3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.



While similar in nature, there is a discrepancy in the total of those who die, demanding a separate event, excluding the possibility of concurrence.

It is the differences that tell us we are not looking at concurrence, but that each judgment proceeds after the one before it.




Many take this view. I cannot.

Just as a suggestion, try giving Revelation a look with a sequential order in view, and see if it does not make more sense than it does when we try to force a more symbolic interpretation of it. You will be able to create a timeline which makes it easier to understand.




Many believe it does, Those who are Post-Tribulation believers also take this view, however, this requires we ignore the order given by John. Christ's Return is clearly depicted in Revelation 19, and this depiction stands in harmonious consistency with Old Testament Prophecy.

What is in view here, if you stop to think about it, is the fact that the rule of Satan and Antichrist, meaning the leeway they have been given up to this point...ends. From this point out they become powerless against the efforts of God and become players on the stage.

Just as Satan told Christ...


Matthew 4:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.


...and Paul wrote...


2 Corinthians 4:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


...we understand Satan has been given a certain amount of authority in this world. That does not negate the rule and reign of God, nor that He is the Only God, but we have to take this into account.

At the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet Judgment we see God step into physical world and His authority becomes the only authority. We do not see Christ return at this time, and in fact we see that still pending are the Seven Vial judgments, which can be distinguished from the previous two sets of judgments. Unless we discount the fact that these take place we are forced to leave Scripture intact and keep the order of events as they have been given to us.

When Christ does Return, those enemies who suffer through the Seven Vial Judgments are destroyed, and following is that depicted in Matthew 25, which is the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which is not a Rapture event, but in fact is a physical judgment upon the unbelieving, who are destroyed because nothing that offends shall enter into that Kingdom He establishes upon His return.

We see this made clear here:


Luke 17:34-37

King James Version (KJV)

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Some mistake this for a Rapture event, but the opposite is true. Those "taken" (and look at the Greek, lol, very interesting) are, as taught by Christ, physically destroyed, there flesh left as carrion, as taught also in Ezekiel 39.

This corresponds to another Second Coming teaching:


Matthew 24:27-28

King James Version (KJV)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


So you see, when we keep everything in it's proper order, we see that the Return of Christ does not result in a Rapture event, but instead results in believers who are physically alive being "left" to enter into the Kingdom, and unbelievers being "taken" in judgment. And when it comes to resurrection at this time the only resurrection spoken of are those who die in the Tribulation. The dead in Christ are not raised at this time.

He shall gather all for this purpose, setting the believers to one side, and unbelievers to the other. Believers remain alive (not glorified, as in the Rapture described by Paul), and unbelievers die physically (not eternally, as they do in the Great White Throne Judgment which takes place after the Millennial Kingdom). This makes it an impossibility to place the Rapture of the Church during these events. And if we maintain the Word of God we see that after this event comes the Millennial Kingdom, which also coincides with not just the testimony of Biblical Prophecy, but the very Promise of God.

No Promise of God goes unfulfilled my friend, and while some of our brethren see all promises fulfilled, they are hard pressed to keep Scripture intact and have those fulfillments not come up short. For example, seeing the First Century as fulfilling Revelation might seem plausible, and I would go so far to say that it would be in keeping with the multiple applications we see concerning Bible Prophecy, but...in no way can it be said to be fulfilled to the jot and tittle.

That still remains.


God bless.

Thanks for your interaction with the idea of Recapitulation in Revelation. I agree that there are important differences among the Seals/Trumpets/Bowls which should not be brushed aside.

 

[Darrell C]

Thanks for your interaction with the idea of Recapitulation in Revelation. I agree that there are important differences among the Seals/Trumpets/Bowls which should not be brushed aside.

It's a great study, regardless of the particular view one embraces. I think we can all benefit by looking at it more closely. I have a greater respect for eschatology now, and feel that we cannot properly balance our soteriology apart from a sound grasp of eschatology. Primarily...resurrection. As we study resurrection the importance and impact of it is made clear and just how much understanding the Gospel relies on it.

Okay, hope you and all here have a blessed day, I have been here too long, lol.


God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Would it not be better to understand the 7 Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls as concurrant rather than chronological. They seem to to be a Recapulation with an increased intensity.

For example, Rev. 11: 15-ff seem to be referring to the End

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Edward, I commend you on at least seeing the parallelism in the seals, trumpets, and bowls, and understanding that Revelation does not present a chronological picture of end time events!

A number of expositors of Scripture see the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls as concurrent, with each of the successive series of events being broader in scope and taking on an increased intensity. A term ‘progressive parallelism’ has been used to describe this observation.

Hendriksen [More Than Conquerors, page 21] and Kistemaker [Revelation, page 11] see seven parallel sections in the Book of Revelation and identify the parallel sections as follows:

• 1. Chapters 1-3 Christ in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks.
  2. Chapters 4-7 The book with seven seals.
  3. Chapters 8-11 The seven trumpets of judgment.
  4. Chapters 12-14 The woman and the man-child persecuted by the dragon
  and his helpers [the beast and the harlot].
  5. Chapters 15-16 The seven bowls of wrath.
  6. Chapters 17-19 The fall of the great harlot and of the beasts.
  7. Chapters 20-22 The judgment upon the dragon [Satan] followed by the new heaven and earth, New Jerusalem.

On page 35 Hendriksen writes regarding the increased intensity of events described in the various sections:

So although all the sections of the Apocalypse run parallel and span the period between the first and Second Comings of Christ and are rooted in the soil of the old dispensation, yet there is also a degree of progress. The closer we approach the end of the book the more our attention is directed to the final judgment and the events beyond it. The seven sections are arranged, as it were, in ascending climactic order. The book reveals a gradual progress in eschatological emphasis.

The New Geneva Study Bible, page 2005 {now the Reformation Bible] gives a slightly different division for the parallel sections, again based on seven cycles of judgment, but limiting these cycles to events in Chapters 4 through 20. Their divisions are as follows for the cycles of Judgment[25] :

• A Chapters 1-3 Christ and the seven churches.
  B Chapters 4-20
  1. Chapters 4-7 The book with seven seals.
  2. Chapters 8-11 The seven trumpets of judgment.
  3. Chapters 12-14 The Church in tribulation and triumph.
  4. Chapters 15-16 The seven vials of wrath.
  5. Chapters 17-19:10 The harlot and the Bride.
  6. Chapter 19:11-19:21 The King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
  7. Chapter 20 The Victory of the Lamb.
  C. Chapters 21-22: The new heaven and earth and the glory of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

[Note: The chapter divisions are from the New Geneva Bible, I have supplied the notations. }

Some years ago I taught through the Book of Revelation for an Adult Class in SS. I made use of the parallelism presented in the New Geneva Bible because I believe it is supported by careful study of Revelation understanding that the book does not present a chronological record of events. Following are come comments from that study.

Each of these seven parallel sections, the approach taken in this study, lead to a description of the Second Coming as shown in the following paragraphs:

• The first such picture in Revelation occurs at the opening of the sixth seal [Revelation 6:12-17]. The terror of those under judgment, the complete despair of those who have rejected the grace of God, as manifested in the sacrificial death of His Son Jesus Christ, will be held in common by all classes of man and is best described by the words: hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? As terrible as is the picture presented the reality of God’s final judgment will be far worse than language can convey.
  
  The second such picture of the end of the age occurs at the sound of the seventh trumpet [Revelation 11:15-19] when it is announced: The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ. Voices ring out, the praise of all the host of heaven, the great multitude, the four beasts, and the twenty four elders. The coming of the Kingdom brings the resurrection to life, the Blessed Hope, of those who are redeemed to God by the blood of the Lamb. However, those who have rejected the grace of God, who have trampled underfoot the Blood of the Covenant, who have loved darkness rather than light will learn that death is no escape. Theirs is the resurrection to judgment, the ultimate woe, the second death, the lake of fire.
  
  The third such picture of the end of the age is shown by the dual harvest [Revelation 14:14-20]. The first harvest, by the Son of Man, is that of ones who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who have persevered, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. These will sing the new song, the song of redemption. These will enter into the joy of the Lord. Their redemption is complete. The second harvest is in stark contrast to the first. A command is given and the vine with its fully ripe grapes is reaped and cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God. With the thrust of the sharp sickle the wrath of God is visited on all unrighteousness.
  
  The fourth such picture of the end of the age occurs when the seventh vial, the final cup of the wrath of God is poured out [Revelation 16:17-21]. The voice of God comes from the throne within the temple saying It is done. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found signifying the final shaking of the heavens and the earth [Hebrews 12:26, 27]. The great harlot, Babylon, is judged.
  
  The fifth picture of the end of the age [Revelation 19:1-10] contrasts the marriage of the Lamb and His Bride, the glory Church, the New Jerusalem, with the judgment of that great harlot, Babylon, the counterfeit church and the bride of the antichrist
  
  The sixth picture of the end of the age [Revelation 19:11-21] shows the return of the One who is Faithful and True, the Word of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to execute judgment upon the beast, the false prophet, and those who bear the mark of the beast in the battle of that great day of God Almighty [Revelation 16:14] at a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon [Revelation 16:16].
  
  The seventh picture [Revelation 20: 7-10] of the end of the age presents a second account of the ‘battle’ of Armageddon. Satan is released to gather the ‘nations’ to battle against the camp of the saints, the beloved city. The nations, referred to as Gog and Magog, encompass the camp of the saints, the beloved city. Here, as in Ezekiel 38 & 39, Gog and Magog represent the opposition of the world to the people of God. It is very likely, as some expositors believe, that the account in Ezekiel is prophetic of the battle of Armageddon. The camp of the saints and the the beloved city are the people of God, the Church, who are alive on earth. The battle is not a physical battle between the Church and the forces of Satan. Neither is it a physical battle between the returning Saviour with His army and Satan with his army. Rather this is a spiritual battle in which the outcome is certain: fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. We see pictured here the final defeat and judgment of Satan, he is cast into the lake of fire.

I should note that many expositors define parallelism primarily in the context of the seals, the trumpets, and the vials. Here the parallelism is much more obvious, and each sequence clearly ends with a reference to the return of Jesus Christ as indicated above. These expositors generally see the intervening chapters as interludes between the events related to the seven seals, trumpets, and vials.

 

[Darrell C]

Edward, I commend you on at least seeing the parallelism in the seals, trumpets, and bowls, and understanding that Revelation does not present a chronological picture of end time events!

A number of expositors of Scripture see the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls as concurrent, with each of the successive series of events being broader in scope and taking on an increased intensity. A term ‘progressive parallelism’ has been used to describe this observation.

Hendriksen [More Than Conquerors, page 21] and Kistemaker [Revelation, page 11] see seven parallel sections in the Book of Revelation and identify the parallel sections as follows:

• 1. Chapters 1-3 Christ in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks.
  2. Chapters 4-7 The book with seven seals.
  3. Chapters 8-11 The seven trumpets of judgment.
  4. Chapters 12-14 The woman and the man-child persecuted by the dragon
  and his helpers [the beast and the harlot].
  5. Chapters 15-16 The seven bowls of wrath.
  6. Chapters 17-19 The fall of the great harlot and of the beasts.
  7. Chapters 20-22 The judgment upon the dragon [Satan] followed by the new heaven and earth, New Jerusalem.

On page 35 Hendriksen writes regarding the increased intensity of events described in the various sections:



The New Geneva Study Bible, page 2005 {now the Reformation Bible] gives a slightly different division for the parallel sections, again based on seven cycles of judgment, but limiting these cycles to events in Chapters 4 through 20. Their divisions are as follows for the cycles of Judgment[25] :

• A Chapters 1-3 Christ and the seven churches.
  B Chapters 4-20
  1. Chapters 4-7 The book with seven seals.
  2. Chapters 8-11 The seven trumpets of judgment.
  3. Chapters 12-14 The Church in tribulation and triumph.
  4. Chapters 15-16 The seven vials of wrath.
  5. Chapters 17-19:10 The harlot and the Bride.
  6. Chapter 19:11-19:21 The King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
  7. Chapter 20 The Victory of the Lamb.
  C. Chapters 21-22: The new heaven and earth and the glory of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

[Note: The chapter divisions are from the New Geneva Bible, I have supplied the notations. }

Some years ago I taught through the Book of Revelation for an Adult Class in SS. I made use of the parallelism presented in the New Geneva Bible because I believe it is supported by careful study of Revelation understanding that the book does not present a chronological record of events. Following are come comments from that study.



I should note that many expositors define parallelism primarily in the context of the seals, the trumpets, and the vials. Here the parallelism is much more obvious, and each sequence clearly ends with a reference to the return of Jesus Christ as indicated above. These expositors generally see the intervening chapters as interludes between the events related to the seven seals, trumpets, and vials.

Progressive Dispensationalists also take this view, though generally hold to a Post-Tribulation Rapture.

We still have to address the differences that exist between the judgments which can be seen not to be identical which suggests they are not the same judgments and do not take place at the same time, which in turn suggests a sequential order. And when we place events in a sequential order a number of issues are resolved.

One of the issues that I feel to be a primary issue is the denial of a literal thousand year period spoken of in Revelation 20. This period correlates beautifully with Old Testament Prophecy, as do many prophetic teachings.


God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Progressive Dispensationalists also take this view, though generally hold to a Post-Tribulation Rapture.

We still have to address the differences that exist between the judgments which can be seen not to be identical which suggests they are not the same judgments and do not take place at the same time, which in turn suggests a sequential order. And when we place events in a sequential order a number of issues are resolved.

Please read my second sentence!

A number of expositors of Scripture see the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls as concurrent, with each of the successive series of events being broader in scope and taking on an increased intensity. A term ‘progressive parallelism’ has been used to describe this observation.

One of the issues that I feel to be a primary issue is the denial of a literal thousand year period spoken of in Revelation 20. This period correlates beautifully with Old Testament Prophecy, as do many prophetic teachings.


God bless.

The Old Testament says nothing about a 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth. In fact the 1000 year reign is mentioned only one time and that in Revelation 20. Furthermore John sees souls reigning with Jesus Christ, not resurrected bodies.

 

[Darrell C]

Please read my second sentence!

Perhaps you could explain how concurrence is denied? That is what was addressed.

The Old Testament says nothing about a 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth. In fact the 1000 year reign is mentioned only one time and that in Revelation 20. Furthermore John sees souls reigning with Jesus Christ, not resurrected bodies.

Actually it is mentioned 6 times in Revelation 20, and the Kingdom that God promised, though a specific duration withheld until Revelation 20, is not only seen throughout the Old Testament Prophecy...is also taught by Christ Himself.

It was the expectation of the Jews who did not recognize the import of Christ's eternal work in the First Coming.


God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Perhaps you could explain how concurrence is denied? That is what was addressed.

You denied concurrence as shown below!

Originally Posted by Darrell C
We still have to address the differences that exist between the judgments which can be seen not to be identical which suggests they are not the same judgments and do not take place at the same time, which in turn suggests a sequential order. And when we place events in a sequential order a number of issues are resolved.

Actually it is mentioned 6 times in Revelation 20,

Whether the word "thousand" appears more than once is irrelevant. This is the only place in the Bible where this 1000 year period is mentioned.

and the Kingdom that God promised, though a specific duration withheld until Revelation 20, is not only seen throughout the Old Testament Prophecy

And how long was that kingdom to last? Scripture please!

...is also taught by Christ Himself.

Scripture please!

It was the expectation of the Jews who did not recognize the import of Christ's eternal work in the First Coming.

They rejected their Messiah and His message and Jesus Christ rejected them! Consider the full import of what Jesus Christ tells the Jews:

Matthew 37-46
37. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41. They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Jesus Christ continues the parable of the vineyard. The householder {God} sends His son. The husbandmen {the Jews} kill His Son. Jesus Christ asks the Jews what the householder {God} will do?

41. They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

The Jews predict their own punishment, first exacted in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by Rome. Then the vineyard {the Kingdom, the Church} will be given to others. Jesus Christ then confirms what the Jews predict saying:

43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Now you show me Scripture where this Judgment is rescinded!

 

[revmwc]

You denied concurrence as shown below!



Whether the word "thousand" appears more than once is irrelevant. This is the only place in the Bible where this 1000 year period is mentioned.

And how long was that kingdom to last? Scripture please!

Scripture please!

They rejected their Messiah and His message and Jesus Christ rejected them! Consider the full import of what Jesus Christ tells the Jews:

Matthew 37-46
37. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41. They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Jesus Christ continues the parable of the vineyard. The householder {God} sends His son. The husbandmen {the Jews} kill His Son. Jesus Christ asks the Jews what the householder {God} will do?

41. They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

The Jews predict their own punishment, first exacted in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by Rome. Then the vineyard {the Kingdom, the Church} will be given to others. Jesus Christ then confirms what the Jews predict saying:

43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Now you show me Scripture where this Judgment is rescinded!

Evidently you just seem to exclude the Prophecy, the Revelation of Jesus found in Revelation 20, you seem to always post the Matthew passage and base all your beliefs on how you and others want to interpret that passage. Your interpretation doesn't fit in harmony with Old Testament prophecy nor the prophecy Jesus offered in Revelation, but God gave you the ability to interpret it your way right or wrong.

 

[OldRegular]

Evidently you just seem to exclude the Prophecy, the Revelation of Jesus found in Revelation 20, you seem to always post the Matthew passage and base all your beliefs on how you and others want to interpret that passage. Your interpretation doesn't fit in harmony with Old Testament prophecy nor the prophecy Jesus offered in Revelation, but God gave you the ability to interpret it your way right or wrong.

The Jews predict their own punishment, first exacted in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by Rome. Then the vineyard {the Kingdom, the Church} will be given to others. Jesus Christ then confirms what the Jews predict saying:

43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Now you show me Scripture where this Judgment is rescinded!

I exclude nothing in Scripture! Just show me from Scripture where this Judgment is rescinded!

 

[Yeshua1]

I exclude nothing in Scripture! Just show me from Scripture where this Judgment is rescinded!

In the teachings of paul in Romans 11, and by John in the book of the revelation, as both of them indeed saw that God still had dealings to do in the future right before the second coming with national Isreal

 

[OldRegular]

In the teachings of paul in Romans 11, and by John in the book of the revelation, as both of them indeed saw that God still had dealings to do in the future right before the second coming with national Isreal

Then quote the Scripture and prove me wrong. Fact is neither Romans 11 or Revelation say anything at all about rescinding that Judgment on Israel!

 

[Yeshua1]

Then quote the Scripture and prove me wrong. Fact is neither Romans 11 or Revelation say anything at all about rescinding that Judgment on Israel!

Paul saw that God was not totally done in dealings with national isreal, the Jewish peoples, and John saw that they would be receiving Jesus as promised messiah when he returned to reign over them!

 

[revmwc]

I exclude nothing in Scripture! Just show me from Scripture where this Judgment is rescinded!

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

Here is the judgment of the unbeliever. After the 1000 year reign the judgment comes, no trumpet blows here. The last of the 7 trumpets of judgment sounds in Chapter 11. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Notice nothing mentioned about the church coming to meet the Lord in the air. The third woe is come upon the earth, Christ Kingdom is coming.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Notice here these 24 elders representing the church in heaven are already there and have been since Chapter 4 when we see, verse 1-2.
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

The voice as if it were a trumpet sounds. Which is in perfect harmony with
1st Thessalonians 4:16-17,

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

A voice and a trumpet, John says a voice which sounded like a trumpet and said come up hither, the call for the church being caught up ready or not.
The voice and trumpet single The word for last in the Greek "eschatos" used in 1 Corinthians 15 verse 52, trumpet the last in time, for the last of time for what? The church, the resurrection or the end? The sound of the trumpet for judgment? Here . We see in Revelation 4:1 the trumpet sounding for the last of time for the church, she is called home.
Revelation 11 has the last trumpet of judgments, but the final judgment doesn't come until 1003 1/2 years has been completed after the trumpet in Revelation 11.

 

[OldRegular]

Paul saw that God was not totally done in dealings with national isreal, the Jewish peoples,

Scripture please!Unless you prove it by Scripture it is simply your opinion.

and John saw that they would be receiving Jesus as promised messiah when he returned to reign over them!

Scripture please. Unless you prove it by Scripture it is simply your opinion.

 

[OldRegular]

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

Here is the judgment of the unbeliever. After the 1000 year reign the judgment comes, no trumpet blows here. The last of the 7 trumpets of judgment sounds in Chapter 11. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Notice nothing mentioned about the church coming to meet the Lord in the air. The third woe is come upon the earth, Christ Kingdom is coming.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Notice here these 24 elders representing the church in heaven are already there and have been since Chapter 4 when we see, verse 1-2.
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

The voice as if it were a trumpet sounds. Which is in perfect harmony with
1st Thessalonians 4:16-17,

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

A voice and a trumpet, John says a voice which sounded like a trumpet and said come up hither, the call for the church being caught up ready or not.
The voice and trumpet single The word for last in the Greek "eschatos" used in 1 Corinthians 15 verse 52, trumpet the last in time, for the last of time for what? The church, the resurrection or the end? The sound of the trumpet for judgment? Here . We see in Revelation 4:1 the trumpet sounding for the last of time for the church, she is called home.
Revelation 11 has the last trumpet of judgments, but the final judgment doesn't come until 1003 1/2 years has been completed after the trumpet in Revelation 11.

There is absolutely nothing in the above Scripture that indicates God's Judgment on the Jews is rescinded. The Kingdom was taken from them, period!

 

[revmwc]

There is absolutely nothing in the above Scripture that indicates God's Judgment on the Jews is rescinded. The Kingdom was taken from them, period!

Romans 11:1-2, 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

This does God is not through with His people, Paul said that. The people He Foreknew, that is had knowledge of before they became His people, there is * or e meaning God hath not cast away His people which He He foreknew either, the either let's us know again that Paul is saying God has not permanently cast His people Israel away. It is right here in the Bible God is not through with Israel.

During the tribulation Revelation 11 says, 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

That there will be a temple in the Holy City, that is Jerusalem. It will be trodden under the gentiles feet for 42 months days, that is second 3 1/2 years of the tribulation. His two witnesses will prophesy 1260 days just shy of the end of the tribulation. Of course the Gentiles treading in the tmeple 42 months during the Tribulation fulfills Daniel 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. The he is the beast of Revelation. God is not through with Israel, Old Testament prophecy is clear and Paul made it clear.