3 Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ

[convicted1]

Edward 1689er, are you an historic-premill?

 

[Edward 1689er]

Gentle Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I do not want my tone to upset or anger anyone, but please remember this section is called "Baptist DEBATE" :tonofbricks:

Grace to you!

 

[Edward 1689er]

Edward 1689er, are you an historic-premill?

Dear fellow friend in Christ,


Why do you ask?

Thanks for your sweet comment. It was nice.


:tonofbricks::tonofbricks::tonofbricks::tonofbricks:

 

[Edward 1689er]

Old Sport

Hello little Old Sport, no Books in Your area? That's ok. Just worship your own Glousious AUTHORITY!!!!!

 

[Darrell C]

Gentle Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I do not want my tone to upset or anger anyone, but please remember this section is called "Baptist DEBATE" :tonofbricks:

Grace to you!

Which means we either we need to debate the Rapture or...eat.

Right?

God bless.

 

[Edward 1689er]

Which means we either we need to debate the Rapture or...eat.

Right?

God bless.

Dear friend In Christ,

If, that is what you want to say...Sure.

You are a spiritual person.

I only wanted to tell YOU how much YOU are KIND to me.

You are, Of course super kind for interacting with me.

May Our Lord Love You!!!

 

[Darrell C]

In 2 Thess. 1:5-11, Paul is:

1. Addressing a church experencing persecution

2. Comforting them that they (the church) will, in the future, have rest from the persecution

3. That cessation of persecution will not come until the Second Coming of Christ (not some secret rapture 7 years ealier)


The passage refutes explicitly any pretrib rapture. The churches future deliverance from persecution and the retribution that will come on her persecutors will be at the Second Coming, after the Tribulation.



Do you deny Paul is writing to a church?

Do you deny that the Coming of Christ referenced in the passage is His Second Advent?

The simple teaching of the passage is that the church can expect persecution, but has the future hope of relief for the church at the Second Coming. This destroys the pretrib rapture theory, which would place that relief 7 years earlier, and in no way connected with the Second Coming.

Have to get going but I will come back to address this post. I will just leave you with a question: if you say that the Church receives rest at Christ's Return, could you show where in the timeline of events in Revelation, which clearly depicts Christ's Return...where exactly Paul's teaching is fulfilled?

I see no resurrection of both living and dead believers in those events. Only those who died during the Tribulation.

God bless.

 

[Edward 1689er]

Have to get going but I will come back to address this post. I will just leave you with a question: if you say that the Church receives rest at Christ's Return, could you show where in the timeline of events in Revelation, which clearly depicts Christ's Return...where exactly Paul's teaching is fulfilled?

I see no resurrection of both living and dead believers in those events. Only those who died during the Tribulation.

God bless.

Do you deny Paul is writing to a church?

Do you deny that the Coming of Christ referenced in the passage is His Second Advent?

The simple teaching of the passage is that the church can expect persecution, but has the future hope of relief for the church at the Second Coming. This destroys the pretrib rapture theory, which would place that relief 7 years earlier, and in no way connected with the Second Coming

Got it!

 

[revmwc]

You have typed stuff, but you have not answered anything.

So you deny that Paul is referring to the Second Advent. Curious and clever twist. Please reference scholars/commentators who agree with your very unique interpretation.

So it is a postmillennial passage, according to you.

So the church is promised relief from their persecution , only after the millennial kingdom??

There will be no peace until the Millinnial Kingdom. However, their are folks who see it the way I just described, J. Vernon McGee states in His Commentary1 Corinthians through Revelation that in his commentary on this passage verse 6 states "...God is righteous in sending the Tribulation. It is a judgment of sinners."

We see Spurgeon on verses 4-5 "One of the clearest proofs of the judgment to come is to be found in the present sufferings of the saints through persecutions and tribulations; for if they, for the very reason that they love God, have to suffer here, there must be a future state and time for rectifying all this that is now so wrong."

What is the time for rectifying the wrong, the Tribulation period as seen in Revelation 6-19.

Spurgeon:
5-7 "For us who believe in Jesus there is a long Sabbath yet to come, to be spent with the apostles and the other holy ones around the throne of God and of the Lamb, even as Paul wrote to the Hebrews, “where remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.”

What does the doctrine of dispensations teach? That while the Tribulation is occurring on earth the Church will be seated around the throne of God at rest with the Apostles and other Holy ones.


H.A. Ironside intro to Verses 1-12 "Evidently some Christians in Thessalonica misunderstood the teaching in that letter. They seem to have jumped to the conclusion that since the Lord’s coming might take place at any moment, it was useless for them to work for a living. And since they were going through some very trying and distressing experiences, they thought that perhaps they were already entering the great tribulation."
Ironside again "But Christ will take care of His persecuted people when He descends “to recompense tribulation.” Paul told the Thessalonians that God would recompense rest to those the wicked have sought to injure (1:7).
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 refers not to the coming of the Lord for His own (as in 1 Thessalonians 4) but to the day of the Lord (as in 1 Thessalonians 5)."

Ironside sees verse 7 Christ will bring rest to the church, (Rapture), then he will bring Tribulation to those who persecuted his church. Then the Kingdom would come and at the end of the Kingdom God would recompence His eternal judgment upon all those who rejected Christ.

 

[Edward 1689er]

Dear Ones,

You are right. Only if one could explain how "we have to run away" do they excplain.:tonofbricks::tonofbricks::tonofbricks::tonofbricks:

 

[Darrell C]

Dear friend In Christ,

If, that is what you want to say...Sure.

You are a spiritual person.

I only wanted to tell YOU how much YOU are KIND to me.

You are, Of course super kind for interacting with me.

May Our Lord Love You!!!

Well, kindness is always assumed...until disagreement arrives, lol. But, I will do my best to have a discussion with you concerning the Rapture of the Church. You present a good argument in regards to Paul's statement "Rest with us," however, I would just mention that Paul has as an intent a reassurance to the saints who were needlessly concerned about those, in Christ, who had already passed away, that they would be excluded from events at the time of Christ's Return. The statement does not preclude the necessity of balance with all teachings regarding the resurrection of the dead, which in regards to the Church Paul makes it clear that when they are resurrected, the dead rise first, then we who remain (still alive) will be caught up to meet them in the air. Now it is difficult to reconcile that to events described in Revelation. Not just difficult, but impossible. We also take into account that promised by God is a Kingdom which Revelation 20 states will be 1000 years. During this time prophesy such as lengthened life-span and removal of enmity between man and animals is fulfilled. Prior to this thousand years we see those who died during the Tribulation raised again to rule with Christ one thousand years. Knowing that Christ has taught that nothing that offends, meaning no unbeliever, will enter into that Kingdom, and seeing it described in Matthew 25 that unbelievers enter into eternal separation from God, leaving, as Christ taught, only believers, we encounter an issue which for me settles the issue...

...if the Church is resurrected according to Paul's teaching, which is all inclusive of every member of the Church, then we have nobody left to populate the Kingdom we are told Christ will establish. That Kingdom can be denied, however, all prophecy will be fulfilled even as it is written. That is how God has always fulfilled prophecy.

In regards to the length of the Tribulation, I too take a view that it will be seven years, and this based upon the fact that just as Revelation describes Antichrist's ascension to power to the point where the Abomination of desolation is set up, even so Daniel 12 establishes that from the time of the Abomination of desolation until the "end" there will be...3 1/2 years. Daniel includes also 75 days beyond the 3 1/2 years which I personally see as the period in which all things which offend are gathered and destroyed, meaning all unbelievers are destroyed, leaving only living physical believers, who turned to Christ during the Tribulation, to populate that kingdom and produce the unbelieving offspring that rebels against God and joins forces with the recently released Satan.

But again, have to get going, so look forward to discussing this with you.

God bless.

 

[Edward 1689er]

There will be no peace until the Millinnial Kingdom. However, their are folks who see it the way I just described, J. Vernon McGee states in His Commentary1 Corinthians through Revelation that in his commentary on this passage verse 6 states "...God is righteous in sending the Tribulation. It is a judgment of sinners."

We see Spurgeon on verses 4-5 "One of the clearest proofs of the judgment to come is to be found in the present sufferings of the saints through persecutions and tribulations; for if they, for the very reason that they love God, have to suffer here, there must be a future state and time for rectifying all this that is now so wrong."

What is the time for rectifying the wrong, the Tribulation period as seen in Revelation 6-19.

Spurgeon:
5-7 "For us who believe in Jesus there is a long Sabbath yet to come, to be spent with the apostles and the other holy ones around the throne of God and of the Lamb, even as Paul wrote to the Hebrews, “where remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.”

What does the doctrine of dispensations teach? That while the Tribulation is occurring on earth the Church will be seated around the throne of God at rest with the Apostles and other Holy ones.


H.A. Ironside intro to Verses 1-12 "Evidently some Christians in Thessalonica misunderstood the teaching in that letter. They seem to have jumped to the conclusion that since the Lord’s coming might take place at any moment, it was useless for them to work for a living. And since they were going through some very trying and distressing experiences, they thought that perhaps they were already entering the great tribulation."
Ironside again "But Christ will take care of His persecuted people when He descends “to recompense tribulation.” Paul told the Thessalonians that God would recompense rest to those the wicked have sought to injure (1:7).
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 refers not to the coming of the Lord for His own (as in 1 Thessalonians 4) but to the day of the Lord (as in 1 Thessalonians 5)."

Ironside sees verse 7 Christ will bring rest to the church, (Rapture), then he will bring Tribulation to those who persecuted his church. Then the Kingdom would come and at the end of the Kingdom God would recompence His eternal judgment upon all those who rejected Christ.

Old Sport, throwing up quotes is not Answering ANTHING!!!!

You think Thess. 1:5-11 has to do with postmill. I asked you who agrees with you? NNE!!!!!!!!!!

 

[revmwc]

Old Sport, throwing up quotes is not Answering ANTHING!!!!

You think Thess. 1:5-11 has to do with postmill. I asked you who agrees with you? NNE!!!!!!!!!!

I didn't say it was post-mill. You previously requested in post 79, "Please reference scholars/commentators who agree with your very unique interpretation." Therefore, I gave you quotes. I have said that 2 Thessalonians 1:5-11 deals with the church as persecuted in the early years along with the time in which it went through stages of apostasy and persecution. Then it will be Snatched Away and God will recompence the Tribulation on the unbelievers, while some will be saved during that tribulation and be persecuted even die for the cause of Christ, they are to find rest as the church is in heaven resting with Christ. Then the Millennial reign i.e. 1000 years, followed by the final judgment. It is all seen in 2 Thessalonians 1:5-11.

 

[revmwc]

Perhaps, Old Sport, you should go to a Bible bookstore, and purchase some commentaries written by Bible Believers, and read them. Perhaps you believe yourself to be an Apostlic Authority Unto Yourself......and have no need to consider whether Your Very Curious "interpretation" should be Questioned. If so, then please leave the discussion of the Bible to humble folks who do not speak so ignorantly.

I have an immense library of books at my disposal. Commentaries from different well known writers. I have some from DeHaan, Chafer, Waalvoord, McGee, Ironside, Henry, MacArthur and many others.

I also have had great bible teachers (pastors) whom I was brought up under.

I believe any and all interpretation of scripture should be questioned no matter who the one is that wrote them or expounds them. The bible itself is not to be questioned, it was given by inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, but any commentary, any book or anyone who is a supposed authority or pastor should be subject to questioning. They should not feel threatened by questioning or resent questioning for that is how the Holy Spirit will guide us to the truth of His word. If you thought I resented questioning you were wrong, it just may be the way I answer some questions.

 

[OldRegular]

I have an immense library of books at my disposal. Commentaries from different well known writers. I have some from DeHaan, Chafer, Waalvoord, McGee, Ironside, Henry, MacArthur and many others.

All Darby-pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalists except Matthew Henry!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

Have to get going but I will come back to address this post. I will just leave you with a question: if you say that the Church receives rest at Christ's Return, could you show where in the timeline of events in Revelation, which clearly depicts Christ's Return...where exactly Paul's teaching is fulfilled?

I see no resurrection of both living and dead believers in those events. Only those who died during the Tribulation.

God bless.

Not that you will believe it but look at Revelation 11:15-19

15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Seventh and last trumpet and the Apostle Paul tells us:

1 Corinthians 15:51-57
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No more death after the return of Jesus Christ, therefore, no earthly millennial reign!

 

[convicted1]

Dear fellow friend in Christ,


Why do you ask?

Thanks for your sweet comment. It was nice.


:tonofbricks::tonofbricks::tonofbricks::tonofbricks:

The historic pre-mill position seems more biblically correct that dispensationalism. I am amil myself, but the historic pre-mill is pretty close in eschatology...

 

[revmwc]

Not that you will believe it but look at Revelation 11:15-19

15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Seventh and last trumpet and the Apostle Paul tells us:

1 Corinthians 15:51-57
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No more death after the return of Jesus Christ, therefore, no earthly millennial reign!

different trump of a different time. The word for last eschatos used in 1 Corinthians 15 verse 52, trumpet the last in time, for the last of time for what? The church, the ressurrection, The sound of the trumpet ofr judgment?

It is the last trump for time of the church age in this case, because we are told that the trumpets in Revelation are bringing judgments.

By your teaching all the judgments which take place in revelation 6-19 will have the church suffering right along with the unsaved. Christ in redeeming the earth through these judgements according to you belief will punish the saved with the unsaved as He completes the redemption of creation. The earth must be redeemed, the book opened at the beginning of chapter 6 is the book or scroll of redemption which like the one in the Levitical law that had the terms by which the kinsman redeemer would have to meet in order to redeem the property of His near kinsman.

The terms for earth's redemption the judgments which are announced with seven trumpets. Until the redemption terms are all met. Once met the Lamb with His Bride will return to earth to rule for the 1000 years as seen in Revelation 19-20. Then the lion will lay down with the lamb. Isaiah's prophecy will be fulfilled. Then after the 1000 years the Great White Throne takes place according to Revelation 20 and all those who rejected Christ are cast into the Lake of fire, death and Hell are consumed in the Lake of fire, and satan and his angels are cast in with the Beast and False prophet, that means that everything in Revelation will be a literal event.

so the Trumpet call for the church is not part of the seven trumpets of judgment seen in Revelation, it is the one heard in Revelation 4 a voice as if it were a trumpet, calling out come up hither!

A Beautiful harmony of scripture, which can't be found in anyother teaching than that of dispensations.

 

[revmwc]

All Darby-pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalists except Matthew Henry!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Henry believed in a literal snatching away of the church and a literal 1000 year reign of Christ. I would need to llok at some of the other authors I have books on. It takes about 5 book 3 foot wide book cases to hold them all.

 

[OldRegular]

Henry believed in a literal snatching away of the church and a literal 1000 year reign of Christ. I would need to llok at some of the other authors I have books on. It takes about 5 book 3 foot wide book cases to hold them all.

Then you are completely unable to comprehend Henry!