OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You Darby-pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalists can twist Scripture until you destroy the Word of God! Pathetic blasphemy!
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3 Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ
- Thread starter Revmitchell
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You Darby-pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalists can twist Scripture until you destroy the Word of God! Pathetic blasphemy!
A beautiful Harmony of scripture. I would like to know in Revelation which was written in approximately A.D. 93 -95 where you are able to see Christ reigning and satan already bound with your other scriptural beliefs and make them Harmonize, like the Holy Spirit intends for scripture to do! Old Testament Prophecy fulfilled literally that deals with Christ reign over Israel, just as the O.T. prophecy harmonizes with their fulfillment in the Gospels concerning Christ 1st Advent and that literally occurred. Because there are so many Prophecies concerning Christ Christ and Israel that have yet to be fulfilled.
We know according to Paul God has not set aside His people Israel then if prophecy concerning Christ 1st Advent was literal then those on the second advent must be literal too. Romans 11:1-8, 1 "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day."Israel as a nation is still in the spirit of slumber, have eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear' it will remain that way until Christ returns at the second advent and establishes Israel as a nation again. Before that occurs, the church must be removed and the Tribulation must end.
Daniel spoke of the last week and t hat week has yet to be fulfilled. Zechariah spoke of Christ setting His foot on the Mount and it would cleave, that is seen too in Revelation. But according to what I believe you wrote you don't see any prophecy fulfilled for Israel. Jeremiah and Isaiah spoke of Christ having the Government upon His shoulders, prophecy says when the Messiah reigns the lion and the lamb will lidown togteher, that hasn't occurred but it will and Revelation speaks of His reigning.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
A beautiful Harmony of scripture. I would like to know in Revelation which was written in approximately A.D. 93 -95 where you are able to see Christ reigning and satan already bound with your other scriptural beliefs and make them Harmonize, like the Holy Spirit intends for scripture to do! Old Testament Prophecy fulfilled literally that deals with Christ reign over Israel, just as the O.T. prophecy harmonizes with their fulfillment in the Gospels concerning Christ 1st Advent and that literally occurred. Because there are so many Prophecies concerning Christ Christ and Israel that have yet to be fulfilled.
We know according to Paul God has not set aside His people Israel then if prophecy concerning Christ 1st Advent was literal then those on the second advent must be literal too. Romans 11:1-8, 1 "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
Israel as a nation is still in the spirit of slumber, have eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear' it will remain that way until Christ returns at the second advent and establishes Israel as a nation again. Before that occurs, the church must be removed and the Tribulation must end.
Daniel spoke of the last week and t hat week has yet to be fulfilled. Zechariah spoke of Christ setting His foot on the Mount and it would cleave, that is seen too in Revelation. But according to what I believe you wrote you don't see any prophecy fulfilled for Israel. Jeremiah and Isaiah spoke of Christ having the Government upon His shoulders, prophecy says when the Messiah reigns the lion and the lamb will lidown togteher, that hasn't occurred but it will and Revelation speaks of His reigning.
You quote the Apostle Paul and then ignore what he said:
Romans 11:1-5
1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Notice that little word: "foreknew". Notice that statement: "at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
God foreknew Israel before He created mankind He foreknew Israel and foreknew they would as a nation reject Jesus. Just as He foreknew who would and wouldn't accept Christ for salvation. But Paul said and made it very clear God has not set Israel aside and He will fulfill all the prophecy concerning Christ. Dispensational teaching supports Prophecy. The only thing is the Old Testament prophets had the Age in which we are living hidden from them. God didn't want them to see it, but He had this the church age planned and done before the beginning of time for man.
God also foreknew Israel before the time we live in, knew this as His people and knew they would reject Christ, so God has not set them aside forever just for this little season. During the Tribulation they will be back but not all, they will not be fully restored until the Kingdom and for that 1000 year period.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Interesting mythology!
You need to study Scripture, all of it. Not just what you think supports your error. Paul also tells us:
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
That means that not all the Israelites were among the elect!
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Just like not all Gentiles are of the elect, for that matter not all church members are of the elect. Paul's point was that God has not set Israel aside permanently.
By the way mythology is an untruth, everything I posted was backed up by the truth of scripture.
Well, I believe you believe it, and that is perfectly okay, for you at least.
But let's look at it:
If you notice what is said is that the time of His wrath has come, a general statement concerning the Tribulation in general. It does not, however, negate the fact that John goes on to continue describing the pouring out of the wrath of God upon the earth. This passage does not replicate Paul's teaching, which the OP has mentioned, in case anyone missed that. After this we see the opening of the final series of judgments, the Seal Judgments.
We can't possibly mistake this for the "Last Trump" Paul speaks about.
Some will take the statement emboldened here...
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
...to signify the end they see in this passage, but, as already noted...we're still within the pouring out of wrath, and to insist upon the end of the Tribulation is more than a stretch.
We see the same statement here:
Revelation 12:10-14
King James Version (KJV)
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Does this mean the Tribulation is over?
Read on:
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
We see that there is still yet 3 1/2 years, which correlates to Daniel 12. Antichrist is empowered by Satan (who has but a short time), Israel falls into open persecution, part of which is harbored in safety in the wilderness, and what follows is not, as our A-mil brethren would suggest, the end of the Tribulation where we can clearly see the Rapture, but in fact precisely what John relays...
...the rest of the Tribulation.
From this time we will see the Vial Judgments opened, and then shall Christ physically return, in accordance with Zechariah 14:
Zechariah 14
King James Version (KJV)
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
We see the Vial Judgments unleashed prior to Christ's Return, which is depicted here:
Revelation 19:11-16
King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
Now the student can go back and read what takes place between the Return spoken of in Scripture and the return some so desperately want to see in Revelation 11. Our Progressive Dispensational brethren have taken an approach that would make the Seal, Trumpet, and Vial Judgments all the same Judgments, however, the careful student can easily dispel that notion by comparing the judgments, which though similar, can be seen to be different, enough to clarify that the judgments are consecutive, not concurrent.
Continued...
Again I would refer the reader back to the OP, which makes solid points, pointing out the differences between the last trump spoken of by Paul and the last Trumpet Judgment. Clearly the Last Trumpet Judgment is not the end of the Tribulation, which makes those trying to fit this together...Mid-Trib believers, and they are not really aware of it.
Above we see that all of the Church is resurrected at the same time, yet if we make Revelation 11 the time of the "Last Trump," then we indeed establish two different types of believers, excluding those resurrected in Revelation 20 from the Church. There is One Shepherd, One Fold, one Christian. That is Paul's point in teaching God making one man of Twain (Jew and Gentile).
Christ does not return in Revelation 11, and when He does return, we see only those, presumably murdered in the Tribulation (they refused to follow Antichrist), raised from the dead. There is no mention of resurrection of the living saints, and indeed this would create a conflict in Biblical Prophecy, because if all believers were resurrected at that time, and we know that all unbelievers are destroyed physically (and will not be raised again until after the thousand years), then we must enforce the passing away of this current Creation and insist the creation of the New Heavens and Earth take place at that time.
Which we know cannot be, because Scripture tells us the timeline:
Revelation 19:17-21
King James Version (KJV)
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
We just saw the Return of Christ in vv.11-16, here we see the destruction of the enemies of God that have amassed to war against Christ. This correlates to Ezekiel 39, which without question makes it clear this current creation stays intact for no less than seven years. Furthermore, we have John's account, which depicts in Revelation 20 the binding of Satan, the Millennial Kingdom, and then...
...the general resurrection of the dead, at which time unbelievers are raised to stand in judgment before the Great white Throne:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
But back to the Eternal State:
Revelation 20:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Can we see the Eternal State begin in Revelation 11? Only if we ignore what Scripture actually states. Here we see this creation pass away, the dead judged, and the new heavens (not a "New Heaven") and earth brought into existence. This is reiterated by John here:
Revelation 21
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
So what we can conclude is that an a-mil view not only does injustice to Bible Prophecy, it absolutely ignores what is written in an easy to understand manner.
Folks, just a little advice: the primary reason most people stumble through Bible Prophecy is because somewhere along the line they hear someone say that Revelation is not to be understood in linear fashion, or that it does not keep a sequential order.
Nothing could be further from the truth. If you simply follow what is written the same way you would read the Gospel of John, not assuming that the Lord has given you a riddle-book, but as is His fashion, has simply given you revelation of what He wants you to know...you will do well.
You can create a sequential timeline which, when you have done so, will allow you not only to follow the sequence of events in Revelation, but will also help you to better understand Old Testament Prophecy.
Continued...
On the contrary, we see much death after the Lord's Return, and specifically when He returns. We see one thousand years in which the dead continue to collect in Sheol/Hades, from whence they are not brought out of until the end of that time. Old Testament Prophecy tells us the length of years for a man will be extended in that time. It also speaks of the conditions for the false prophet, who will not, as today, openly blaspheme God, but will do his best to conceal his heresy.
Only if we ignore what is written could we come to such a conclusion.
According to the Word of God, there will be a Millennial Reign:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
We can further dismantle the view of those who deny a Pre-Tribulation Rapture by examining their argument that the "First Resurrection" here means no resurrection has taken place prior to this, which can be seen not to be accurate because we see, for one, the Rapture of the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11, which if you remember, is the time this post suggests the Lord Returns, the Tribulation ends, and the Eternal State begins.
However, if we look at the Greek we will find that protos is not always used to represent the first in a sequential order, but also speaks of something that is first...
...in rank.
Such as the "Chief Priests" and "Chief Estates," which were certainly not the "first" priests or estates.
Scripture teaches two resurrections:
John 5:29
King James Version (KJV)
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The Tribulation Martyrs of Revelation 20 are raised according to the Resurrection unto life. The "dead" are raised, after the Millennial Reign, unto the resurrection of damnation, at which time final judgment is imposed on them for their rejection of the will of God.
That, my friends, is why this is called the First Resurrection, because it is the chief resurrection taught in Scripture.
When we take a deeper look into Scripture, and take it as it is written, rather than trying to make it symbolic to the point it loses all meaning except for that which the student seeks to give to it, then we find that people like Darby and La Haye...
...are not as crazy as some would have you to believe, lol.
God bless.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
It would not be a mistake because the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet. Your mistake is in attempting to interpret Revelation literally and assuming that Revelation presents a chronological picture of the "Grreeaat Tribulation"!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The seventh trumpet is the last trumpet! Your mistake is in attempting to interpret Revelation literally and assuming that Revelation presents a chronological picture of the "Grreeaat Tribulation"!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I said you would not believe Scripture and you don't. The Apostle Paul clearly teaches that there will be no more death after the resurrection!
No Paul says those who are raised and changed will defeat death. I don't see where He says there is no more death.
We see that one place, Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
But this doesn't happen until all the rest has been accomplished.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This clearly occurs after the 1000 year reign,
Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
It appears Christ will reign for 1000 years on the earth while satan is bound. Who reigns with Him the folks who went through the tribulation, the army He brought with Him in Revelation 19 which is the Bride, as well the Old Testament saints.
Death is not conquered until the 1000 year reign is completed, that is very clear in Revelation 21.
We see Revelation 19:19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."
Again it is clear that before Christ returns at His second advent, that is when He comes all the way to the earth, there is a period of time in which the world is in chaos and anti-christian and anti Christ sentinment is all that occurs. There is a beast or leader who is in charge and the Armies of the world are gathered to fight against Christ who is coming with His Army. That army which accompannies the Lamb is His Bride, the church and she comes with Him out of heaven,
Revelation 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. "
How do we know this is the church the Bride look at Revelation 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."
We see too Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
Notice what the Bride and those who overcometh will be clothed in "fine linen, clean and white" it appears before the kingdom comes that the church is with Christ as He comes to defeat the unholy trinity in Revelation 19 and the Bride reigns with the Lamb for 1000 years then death and hell are done away with at the Great White Throne of Judgment at the end of the 1000 year Kingdom. Throughout the book of Revelation we see the church in Heaven as the Tribulation occurs on earth. We see the army clothed in white coming with Christ at His second coming and HE defeats satan, the Beast and False prophet (unholy trinity) along with the kings and armies of the world. HE (Christ) then reigns for 1000 years all according to Revelation 19-20. Finally in Revelation 21 all the tears are wiped away and the former things are pass away, Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
It doesn't happen until all the rest has been accomplished.
Don't forget who the prophet is that is giving us the book of Revelation, Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
Since Jesus shows the church in heaven while the 7 year Tribulation is occurring and no more death until after He has reigned 1000 years on earth, I am going to believe Jesus.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No! You are mistaken. Jesus Christ does not show that at all! You will never learn the truth as long as you wear those Darby/Scofield blinders!
Breakdown those verses I listed and show where they are incorrect. Just those verses as they were listed.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You reconcile the passages I presented earlier {post 112} then perhaps I will take the time to respond to the Scripture you posted. By reconcile it is not sufficient to say "by decree", since neither you or Darby are God, that the seventh and last trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15!
1 Corinthians 15:51-57
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
We believers in the church will be changed at the Coming of Christ, in the Clouds.
Where 1 Thessalonians 4 states 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
We will all be changed those of us in that belong to the church. By faith in christ. How quickly, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The term last means at the end of a period of time, that period of time for the trumpet to sound is as stated on these verse in my post #98. The word for last eschatos used in 1 Corinthians 15 verse 52, trumpet the last in time, for the last of time for what? The church, the ressurrection, The sound of the trumpet of judgment?
It is the last trump for time of the church age in this case, because we are told that the trumpets in Revelation are bringing judgments. Two totally seperate periods of time in God's plan.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
We who are alive and remain have a corruptible body and when Christ returns and the church is caught up as 1st Thessalonians says then the corruptible body we have will put on incorruption, and death for us is swallowed up in the Victory that Christ won on the Cross and in Him who we placed our trust in.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
For those of the church resurrected and who are the grave and death have lost their sting and victory has come because they have a resurrected body at that point. For us who were caught up alive at that point death has no sting we don't taste the sting of death, The grave will never be seen by us.
Christ will have fulfilled that His promise if He goes He will return.
We see Revelation 4 here where the call come up hither takes place. The church is seen in multitudes in heaven and the 24 elders seen with their rewards as 1st Corinthians 3 states we will receive our rewards.
Death doesn't cease according to Revelation 20 and 21 until after the 1000 year reign and satan is finally and forever cast into the lake of fire.
Here in 1st Corinthians 15:51-57 we see the Rapture and our receiving our eternal resurrected bodies. Changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye ate the end of a period the trump will sound to end that period of time. In 1st Thessalonians Paul said the trumpet would sound, in 1st Corinthians he said at the last of a time the trump would sound.
Very simple when you see the Greek eschatos meaning the last in time, instead saying it is the last trump of all. It is the last in time trump for a specific period of time.
Do you also spiritualize the Gospel of John? What other Book of Scripture do you feel doesn't mean what it says?
The "Last Trump" is the last trump for the Church, and just as Revelation goes on to show that the Seventh Trumpet is not the end of the Tribulation, even so you will be hard pressed to impose Christ's Return, the resurrection of both living and dead believers, and then reconcile everything else John writes after the Last Trumpet Judgment.
Good luck with that, my friend.
God bless.
Quick, somebody notify the staff...there's an echo in here!
Did not Christ Himself say...
Matthew 24:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
If you want to deny there will be great tribulation, then, ahem, great.
But events described in Revelation do in fact correlate to Christ's teaching, it will indeed be great tribulation. Not the tribulation believers are said to endure on a daily basis, but the tribulation the Lord promises to keep those who overcome (and in Johannine terms this means to be saved itself) from:
1 John 5:1-5
King James Version (KJV)
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
God bless.
Again, the OP points out the discrepancies between the two events.
If you could just reconcile what is written in Revelation with your view that the Seventh Trumpet signals the end of the Tribulation, perhaps we can work this thing out.
God bless.
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