All about Grace
New Member
Typical. You get sidetracked with the rabbit and overlook the bear in the road.
If you can't answer the question, just admit so.
If you can't answer the question, just admit so.
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40 days of purpose
- Thread starter spurgeon2004
- Start date
C.R. Gordon
New Member
I guess i don't know what you mean by "INSENSITIVE"
let me give you a good example
we had a couple come to our church...and they attended faithfully, and work in the VBS and did all kinds of stuff, they even came down and “gave their hearts to Jesus”...but there was a problem...they were not married, and living in sin...the pastor and deacons went in a gracious manner and told them they needed to be married...they made the excuse we can’t afford it…the church said “We’ll pay for everything” they still said forget it…they wanted to join the church we said no…you may attend, but you can not join until you are married…they left. Is that "INSENSITIVE"
They were not committed to Christ, they were looking to get something…
Some churches would say we were not “seek friendly” to them…but I say that they were not true believers…false converts…and that was revealed.
If that is "INSENSITIVE" then I guess I am.
does that answer your question?
let me give you a good example
we had a couple come to our church...and they attended faithfully, and work in the VBS and did all kinds of stuff, they even came down and “gave their hearts to Jesus”...but there was a problem...they were not married, and living in sin...the pastor and deacons went in a gracious manner and told them they needed to be married...they made the excuse we can’t afford it…the church said “We’ll pay for everything” they still said forget it…they wanted to join the church we said no…you may attend, but you can not join until you are married…they left. Is that "INSENSITIVE"
They were not committed to Christ, they were looking to get something…
Some churches would say we were not “seek friendly” to them…but I say that they were not true believers…false converts…and that was revealed.
If that is "INSENSITIVE" then I guess I am.
does that answer your question?
All about Grace
New Member
The example you gave has nothing to do with being "seeker-sensitive."
Perhaps you should seek to understand terms more clearly before you pounce in opposition against them.
Perhaps you should seek to understand terms more clearly before you pounce in opposition against them.
C.R. Gordon
New Member
All "SEEKER FRIENDLY" means is to make an inviorment that is "tolerant" where everyone is excepted, and no is picked on.Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
The example you gave has nothing to do with being "seeker-sensitive."
Perhaps you should seek to understand terms more clearly before you pounce in opposition against them.
now when you talk about sin, and depravity you are bound to pick on someone, just because the holy spirit, will convict them...and people don't like to come face to face with THEIR sin, but if it's SOMEONE ELSES SIN, then its all good.
But i think we should be VERY NICE to lost people...and do what we can to help them see the light, but to not talk to them about sin and a coming judgement is just not happening.
We need to IN LOVE tell them they have broken God's law, and they need to repent of their sins...
once again watch the video i posted earlier!
Good stuff!
I agree with SBC. The example given was totally irrelevant. I've never seen being "seeker-sensitive" equated to turning a blind-eye to sinfulness before. There is no connection between the two, regardless of C.R.'s misconception of the former.The example you gave has nothing to do with being "seeker-sensitive."
A furthur statement demonstrating that C.R. is misinformed. I've been around for a while; let me give some specific examples of how we IFB's can sometimes be seeker-unfriendly:All "SEEKER FRIENDLY" means is to make an inviorment that is "tolerant" where everyone is excepted (Sic) , and no is picked on.
1. Churches that demand that bus-kid girls (of any age) wear dresses or skirts by at least their second week of attendance. I know a church that will refuse to pick-up bus-kid girls (e.g. 7 years old: Doesn't matter!) if they try to board the bus in pants after their first attendance.
2. I visited an IFB church a few years ago (say 4-5 years or so), wearing tailored dress slacks, a custom-fitted, collared dress shirt, and a nice sweater. An usher (name-tag & all) actually scolded me for "not being properly dressed for church" (i.e. not wearing a jacket & tie!) This usher had never seen me before, and had no way of knowing if I was a believer or not- but he sure succeeded in making me feel unwelcome!
3. In the same church as in example #2, I saw the pastor stop in mid-sermon (!) to scold a man who I think was an obvious visitor for his too-long hair! The man simply stood up & walked out.
4. In another IFB church I've visited, the prime parking spots near the entry doors are all marked as "Reserved" for the pastor, asst. pastor, etc. To a visitor who has to park farther away & walk past all these reserved spots, I think the message they get is that unless you're a "big-shot" at this church you don't matter as much.
If I thought for a while, I'm sure I could recall more specific examples.
Baptistgal
New Member
I have a question...
I saw a quote from Rick Warren that said basically we are where we are because it is God's will for us to be there. Does that ignore the consequences of our sin, when that puts us in a place of our own making that God would not have us in? Or does Mr. Warren address that in another passage?
Just seeing that one quote, without having read his entire book, I would be troubled. Sometimes we are in a place in our lives that God did NOT intend. If we are living in sin...shacking up unmarried, living in drug addictions, etc....that is not because it is God's will for our life, that is because we made bad choices and we need to let GOd turn us around.
In and of itself, seeing that quote from Rick Warren's book would make me think his point of view has some real theological problems. Can anyone tell me if that was or was not his intention? Perhaps I misunderstood.
I saw a quote from Rick Warren that said basically we are where we are because it is God's will for us to be there. Does that ignore the consequences of our sin, when that puts us in a place of our own making that God would not have us in? Or does Mr. Warren address that in another passage?
Just seeing that one quote, without having read his entire book, I would be troubled. Sometimes we are in a place in our lives that God did NOT intend. If we are living in sin...shacking up unmarried, living in drug addictions, etc....that is not because it is God's will for our life, that is because we made bad choices and we need to let GOd turn us around.
In and of itself, seeing that quote from Rick Warren's book would make me think his point of view has some real theological problems. Can anyone tell me if that was or was not his intention? Perhaps I misunderstood.
C.R. Gordon
New Member
A furthur statement demonstrating that C.R. is misinformed. I've been around for a while; let me give some specific examples of how we IFB's can sometimes be seeker-unfriendly:Originally posted by LarryN:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> All "SEEKER FRIENDLY" means is to make an inviorment that is "tolerant" where everyone is excepted (Sic) , and no is picked on.
1. Churches that demand that bus-kid girls (of any age) wear dresses or skirts by at least their second week of attendance. I know a church that will refuse to pick-up bus-kid girls (e.g. 7 years old: Doesn't matter!) if they try to board the bus in pants after their first attendance.
2. I visited an IFB church a few years ago (say 4-5 years or so), wearing tailored dress slacks, a custom-fitted, collared dress shirt, and a nice sweater. An usher (name-tag & all) actually scolded me for "not being properly dressed for church" (i.e. not wearing a jacket & tie!) This usher had never seen me before, and had no way of knowing if I was a believer or not- but he sure succeeded in making me feel unwelcome!
3. In the same church as in example #2, I saw the pastor stop in mid-sermon (!) to scold a man who I think was an obvious visitor for his too-long hair! The man simply stood up & walked out.
4. In another IFB church I've visited, the prime parking spots near the entry doors are all marked as "Reserved" for the pastor, asst. pastor, etc. To a visitor who has to park farther away & walk past all these reserved spots, I think the message they get is that unless you're a "big-shot" at this church you don't matter as much.
If I thought for a while, I'm sure I could recall more specific examples. </font>[/QUOTE]Please tell me your joking...if this is what you think "SEEKER FRIENDLY" means you have not done your home work...You need to stay away of "IFB" churches and go to a Southern Baptist church or better yet a Reformed Baptist Church...we are not "Seeker Friendly" at our church, and we NEVER have done anything like the above statements...and if anyone had...THEY would have bee picked apart, and scolded for doing that to a visitor.
Are you kidding? There are multitudes of calvinism/arminianism and freewill/predestination threads on that very topic.Originally posted by Baptistgal:
I saw a quote from Rick Warren that said basically we are where we are because it is God's will for us to be there. Does that ignore the consequences of our sin, when that puts us in a place of our own making that God would not have us in? Or does Mr. Warren address that in another passage?
I guess we'd have to see Rick Warren's quote in the context delivered.
No, I don't think this is what "seeker-friendly" means- my point is that these are examples of being "seeker-unfriendly". And the fact that I've visited these churches simply means that I was out-of-town over a weekend & went to a "recommended" Baptist church.Please tell me your joking...if this is what you think "SEEKER FRIENDLY" means you have not done your home work...
My own church is nothing like the examples I give. If it was I wouldn't be a member where I am.
Sadly though, I know for a fact (close friends with a family that currently belongs there) that the church from examples 2 & 3 slams Warren for some of the same misconceptions that you do. And also sadly, the attitudes I've witnessed & described aren't all that uncommon in Fundy circles.
Baptistgal
New Member
JohnV...my whole point in asking was to find out what the context was of the quote.
I have no desire to debate the point, so I'm not going to go to the other threads you mentioned. I'm just wondering where Warren stands.
I have no desire to debate the point, so I'm not going to go to the other threads you mentioned. I'm just wondering where Warren stands.
All about Grace
New Member
CR:
It is obvious we cannot have a legitimate discussion of this topic when your definition of "seeker-sensitive" is so skewed.
Your misinformed posts represent what is so flawed about what is known as "fundamentalism" today.
It is obvious we cannot have a legitimate discussion of this topic when your definition of "seeker-sensitive" is so skewed.
Your misinformed posts represent what is so flawed about what is known as "fundamentalism" today.
C.R. Gordon
New Member
I just called a "FUNDAMENTAL"...AWESOME!
thank you!
thank you!
C.R. Gordon
New Member
Once again,
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
HOW MUCH MORE PLAIN DOES IT HAVE TO BE.
the ONLY WAY a person can get spiritual understanding is by the Spirit of God opening their depraved and sinful eyes...they may get knowldge...but they won't ever REALLY understand.
I'm done talking.
have a good day.
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
HOW MUCH MORE PLAIN DOES IT HAVE TO BE.
the ONLY WAY a person can get spiritual understanding is by the Spirit of God opening their depraved and sinful eyes...they may get knowldge...but they won't ever REALLY understand.
I'm done talking.
have a good day.
C.R. Gordon
New Member
NO,
that's not it at all...I take my ideas from Scripture...not from the culture...it's silly to think we must do everything in our power to attempt to PULL pagans into church...church on sunday morning is not the place to evlaglize poeople. Sunday morning is for WORSHIP, not evanglizsm...the time to share Christ is when we are IN THE WORLD...the church is a place we are to exalt GOD, not man.
do your homework, and you'll see i'm right.
And we can't wittness effectily without using the law to bring people to Christ.
that's not it at all...I take my ideas from Scripture...not from the culture...it's silly to think we must do everything in our power to attempt to PULL pagans into church...church on sunday morning is not the place to evlaglize poeople. Sunday morning is for WORSHIP, not evanglizsm...the time to share Christ is when we are IN THE WORLD...the church is a place we are to exalt GOD, not man.
do your homework, and you'll see i'm right.
And we can't wittness effectily without using the law to bring people to Christ.
All about Grace
New Member
I agree with everything you write here. Again -- not the point. Seeker is simply a term employed.there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
HOW MUCH MORE PLAIN DOES IT HAVE TO BE.
the ONLY WAY a person can get spiritual understanding is by the Spirit of God opening their depraved and sinful eyes...they may get knowldge...but they won't ever REALLY understand.
I guess you could say that you are kind of like the person you describe in your final paragraph, no matter how long this dialogue continues, you probably "won't ever really understand."
Sin and Depravity are not the only things that blind.
The problem is that you have a misconception of what "seeker-sensitive" means (if your understanding were correct, I and several others, would agree with you). Several on this board have attempted to clarify what the term means, and you refuse to listen.Originally posted by C.R. Gordon:
that's not it at all...I take my ideas from Scripture...
I, too, take my ideas from scripture. As I posted earlier in this thread, Jesus was often quite seeker sensitive.
Our Church has a "seeker" class. I have never understood why the unsaved and unchurched continue to visit our church. They do not hear a watered down version of the truth, they hear the Word preached strongly. But the efforts to remove the other barriers that many Baptist churches I have been in put up has been eye-opening.
You cannot expect the ungregerate person to act like a Christian. They will bahave in a way that is consistent with their nature. Change their nature, and the other stuff will follow along.
If anyone is going to get offended at our church, or put off, I would hope it is by the message of the gospel, not by anything unimportant and unbiblical. Too often that is sadly the case.
You cannot expect the ungregerate person to act like a Christian. They will bahave in a way that is consistent with their nature. Change their nature, and the other stuff will follow along.
If anyone is going to get offended at our church, or put off, I would hope it is by the message of the gospel, not by anything unimportant and unbiblical. Too often that is sadly the case.