A ambassador,a ranch, a V-POTUS, and not a peep from Lynne Cheney

[Bro. Curtis]

We are being lied to. Period.

 

[poncho]

Yeah but the question is why Bro Curtis. I mean why lie about an accident? What purpose would it serve?

I am also supremely doubtful that he was shot from 15-20 feet, because in that case I think he'd be dead!

That's how the evidence stacks up. You have much experience with shotguns BTW?

 

[Petrel]

Not a lot of experience. I've shot clay pigeons a couple of times.

My medical examiner source says in his opinion the injuries are consistent with being shot at 30 yards with birdshot. I'm afraid I'm going to have to decline to join the conspiracy theorists.

 

[poncho]

OIC. When one cannot discredit the evidence one turns to demonizing those examining it. Fully expected and quite normal among "rational people" these days.

I suggest you and your medical examiner source view this video of someone actually doing ballistics tests with a 28 gauge shotgun loaded with #7 1/2 birdshot at various targets and various ranges. CLICK HERE.

You may just come to the same conclusion as Bro Curtis and I. We're being lied too.

 

[Petrel]

So we have established the distance of the shot. Now we wanted to see if we could match the wound penetration. As I already stated the shots at the dummy torso from 90 feet had little to no effect. Alex then decided to shoot the game hen and the watermelon from 90 feet. The results of these shots were penetrations of 1 to 2 millimeters, this means they were just under the outer layer of skin. There was also evidence of impacts that bounced off, leaving black smudges on both targets. At shots taken from 30 feet slightly deeper penetrations, but nothing that went passed the most outer layers of the actual meat. The last shot was taken at the game hen from 15 feet and that shot yielded the kind of results that Mr. Whittington experienced, a tight cluster of pellet hits penetrating into the internal cavities of the body.

He's assuming that the shot penetrated the chest cavity (based on faulty reporting by idiot reporters, imo), when the doctor who first treated Whittington said that the injuries were superficial and required only antibiotics. If Whittington indeed had shotgun pellets penetrate his heart and lungs, he wouldn't be walking about at home today.

Once again, consistent with a range closer to the 30 yards reported. I'm not going to quibble about 5 yards one way or the other, but it definitely was not 15-20 feet.

 

[poncho]

The general rule of thumb for shot spread is one inch spread for each foot of distance after leaving the barrel. The pattern of the spread shown in the report is consistant with a range of 15 to 20 feet or 15 to 20 inches.

30 yards is 90 feet which works out to 1,080 inches. There are 258 pellets in an average 3/4 oz or 1.5 dram shot load how many pellets would hit a mansized target at 30 yards and would they be concentrated into a pattern as that shown in the report? Nope.

The external velocity of number 7.5 shot is 1200 fps at the muzzle slowing down to 765 fps at 30 yards the average 7.5 shot is .094 dia, the energy of a single pellet at 30 yards is 1.5 fpe (foot pounds of energy). Do these pellets have enough energy left at 30 yards to penetrate 3 layers of clothing at that distance? Highly doubtful.

These numbers were taken from my Reloading For Shotgunners 2nd edition. I am not a mathmatician so anyone that is better at math than I please feel free to correct my numbers.

 

[Petrel]

You can actually see the picture on that report well enough to get any detail out of it?? I sure can't!

Considering the only injuries I've heard of were to his face and neck, how many layers of clothes he was wearing is irrelevant.

 

[ASLANSPAL]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Was she the real shooter???? just a question
and the scrutiny would have been blinding upon her.

name: Pamela Willeford
race: white
age: 50ish
sex: f
occupation: US Ambassadress to Switzerland
last seen: Sat. 2/11/06, on a ranch in Texas, in the company of the V-POTUS
details: Ms. Willeford is missing after an incident involving firearms and alcohol

VP Accident Tale Filled With Discrepancies By CALVIN WOODWARD and NANCY BENAC, Associated Press Writers
Sat Feb 18, 3:52 AM ET



WASHINGTON - Vice President Dick Cheney said he didn't immediately disclose his hunting accident because he wanted the confusing details to come out right. Instead, authorized accounts came out slowly — and often still wrong.

The result: a week of shifting blame, belatedly acknowledged beer consumption (not "zero" drinking after all) and evolving discrepancies in how the shooting happened, its aftermath and the way it was told to the nation.

"There's a reason they call this crisis management," said corporate damage-control specialist Eric Dezenhall, "and that's because it's a mess."

___

BLAME

In the first days after the vice president wounded attorney Harry Whittington while shooting at quail last Saturday in Texas, blame was placed on the victim for not announcing his presence to fellow hunter Cheney.

"The vice president did everything right," Katharine Armstrong, the ranch owner approved by Cheney to disclose the accident, said Monday. Whittington, 78, should have shouted that he was rejoining the hunting group after drifting off to retrieve a downed bird. "The mistake exposed him to getting shot," she said. "It's incumbent on him. He did not do that."

The White House picked up on that theme the same day in attempting to deflect any responsibility from the vice president. "If I recall," Bush spokesman Scott McClellan said of Armstrong, "she pointed out that the protocol was not followed by Mr. Whittington, when it came to notifying the others that he was there."

The about-face came Wednesday when Cheney made his first public comment on the accident.

"It was not Harry's fault," he said. "You can't blame anybody else. I'm the guy who pulled the trigger and shot my friend."

___

DRINKING

Although there is no evidence that beer impaired Cheney's judgment, initial denials that he had consumed alcohol were wrong.

"No one was drinking," Armstrong said at the outset. "No, zero, zippo." She said the hunters washed down lunch with Dr Pepper. Later, she qualified her comments and said beer might have been in the cooler but she did not think anyone drank any.

The investigating officer from the Kenedy County sheriff's department, after interviewing Whittington in the hospital, reported that the victim "explained foremost there was no alcohol during the hunt."

Authorities did not investigate the accident until the next day. The Texas Parks and Wildlife accident report, dated two days after the shooting, checked "No" on the question of whether Cheney appeared under the influence of intoxicants. It did not address whether the hunters had been drinking at all. (The report also included a diagram depicting Whittington's wounds on the wrong side of his body.)

Cheney acknowledged Wednesday, "I had a beer at lunch" several hours before the group's afternoon hunt, asserting "nobody was under the influence."

___

VICTIM'S CONDITION

In the rush to assure everyone Whittington was "just fine," some important details were left out.

Initial reports had him treated at the scene, then taken by ambulance to the hospital, where in no time he was cracking jokes with the nurses. It turned out that after being taken to the emergency room of a local, small hospital, he was flown by helicopter to the intensive care unit of the larger hospital in Corpus Christi.

According to Armstrong's initial account of the accident scene: "He was talking. His eyes were open." Later, Cheney said that when he rushed up to the stricken man and talked to him, Whittington had one eye open and did not respond. He was, however, conscious.

Doctors said Tuesday that Whittington suffered a mild heart attack while in the hospital when one of the pellets migrated to his heart. He was released Friday.

___

LICENSE

Cheney did not have all his hunting papers in order, as suggested by the White House and initially stated by Texas authorities.

On Sunday, a spokesman for the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department said Cheney was legally hunting with a license he bought in November. While that was true, the department's accident report the next day stated that he was in violation of a law requiring him to have an upland game bird stamp.

___

DISCLOSURE

The accident raised questions about the flow of information into and out of the White House communications apparatus.

Asked why no one released news of the shooting on Saturday night, McClellan said "the vice president's office was working to make sure information got out" but that details were slow to reach Washington that evening.

Armstrong, for her part, said no one at the ranch even discussed releasing the news on Saturday.

She said her family realized Sunday morning that it would be a story and decided to call the local newspaper, the Corpus Christi Caller-Times. She said she then discussed news coverage with Cheney for the first time.

"I said, 'Mr. Vice President, this is going to be public, and I'm comfortable going to the hometown newspaper,'" she told The Associated Press. "And he said, 'You go ahead and do whatever you are comfortable doing.'"

___

TELLING WASHINGTON

McClellan said President Bush was told shortly before 8 p.m. EST Saturday that Cheney had shot Whittington, less than half an hour after Bush first heard there had a been an accident of some sort involving Cheney's hunting party. Confirmation that Cheney was the shooter was obtained when deputy chief of staff Karl Rove called Armstrong, McClellan said.

However, McClellan said he didn't personally know Cheney was the shooter until the next morning, about 6 a.m. EST Sunday, when he was awakened with the news.

He said he only knew the previous evening that someone in Cheney's party had been involved in a hunting accident.


My comment and take a risk here imho the the closest witness to the shooting was involved but
yet we have not heard from her and it really is
questionable Ms. Armstrong was exactly on the scene.

So where is the press in trying to interview her
I think she is already back in Switzerland in some Castle Keep and is not available.

I think she is the shooter..my opinon ..sure would like to hear her version. And my goodness nothing from Lynne Cheney.


link Chicago Sun Times
CHENEY CHATTER: Don't know if this had anything to do with the delay in reporting Vice President Dick Cheney's shooting accident, but the Internet is buzzing about Lynne Cheney's jealousy of a member of the veepster's shooting party -- U.S. Ambassador to Switzerland Pamela Willeford. The second lady reportedly is none too keen about the close relationship her husband maintains with the diplomat and longtime Republican mainstay

 

[Gina B]

Why in the world would you assume we're being lied to?
HAHAHA
Ok, forget that...but do listen to this.

I had a relative who died of a heart attack shortly after a knee surgery.
What had happened was this: While having the surgery, a tiny piece of bone was chipped off his knee. It got into his bloodstream, travelled to his heart, and resulted in the heart attack.

It only takes a minute bit of a foreign object to cause a heart attack. Blood travels into the heart, that's its job. If you got a tiny bit of pellet in your big toe, there's still a risk of a heart attack.

It happens.

It's not conspiracy, it's how bodies work. Blood is taken to the heart. Very simple.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
[qb] Was she the real shooter???? just a question
and the scrutiny would have been blinding upon her. ...

More blah, blah, blah about nothing of national political importance. It was a hunting accident.

The man who was injured is, thankfully, doing fine. The man who accidently shot him has acknowledged the mistake and, thankfully, is also doing fine. Both men are still friends and will probably go hunting together again some day.

 

[The Galatian]

If alcohol wasn't an issue, why did they first try to cover up the fact that there had been drinking?

Why are this man's injuries inconsistent with the story we got from Cheney?

And why didn't we find out who was involved at first?

One more bit of evidence that the republicans have become democrats.

 

[poncho]

Originally posted by Petrel:
You can actually see the picture on that report well enough to get any detail out of it?? I sure can't!

Considering the only injuries I've heard of were to his face and neck, how many layers of clothes he was wearing is irrelevant.

I can see it well enough to know that a good amount of the shot supposedly penetrated the three layers of clothing Mr. Whittington was reportedly wearing at the time and actually became wounds in the skin on his chest. Highly unlikely from 30 yards.

Another thing I noticed was the pattern in the report was drawn on the wrong side. Who ever drew it wasn't exactly on top of their game that day either I guess.

 

[poncho]

Originally posted by Gina L:
Why in the world would you assume we're being lied to?
HAHAHA
Ok, forget that...but do listen to this.

I had a relative who died of a heart attack shortly after a knee surgery.
What had happened was this: While having the surgery, a tiny piece of bone was chipped off his knee. It got into his bloodstream, travelled to his heart, and resulted in the heart attack.

It only takes a minute bit of a foreign object to cause a heart attack. Blood travels into the heart, that's its job. If you got a tiny bit of pellet in your big toe, there's still a risk of a heart attack.

It happens.

It's not conspiracy, it's how bodies work. Blood is taken to the heart. Very simple.

It also takes a certain amount of energy to drive even a small fragment to get close to the heart. In this shooting as described that energy simply didn't exist. That isn't conspiracy it's math.

Whether the man had a heart attack or not is irrelevant here, so is what the dems are saying or whether the Sheriff did a good enough investigation or not which obviously from the math and ballistics evidence they didn't nor is any of the other strawmen that the media is throwing out there to confuse the issue and the beholder. If that pellet didn't have enough energy to go through his clothing then it couldn't have reached his heart at 30 yards. Simple. If there wasn't enough energy to go through his clothing at 30 yards it couldn't have caused the damage it did. It's ballistics that's how it works.

They're simply lying. And it's no surprise. Is the VP, press and the Kennedy county Sheriff's dept lying to the public about how an accident happened a big deal? Probably not to most people, but then we aren't most people we're people that claim to want the truth.

But anyway, this story will go the same route as all the rest have gone. Come next news cycle it will all be forgotten and we can move on to being comforted by the people in power lying to us "for the greater good of all".

Bernay's called it engineering consent. I call it deception.

[ February 18, 2006, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: poncho ]

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by poncho:
The general rule of thumb for shot spread is one inch spread for each foot of distance after leaving the barrel. The pattern of the spread shown in the report is consistant with a range of 15 to 20 feet or 15 to 20 inches.

30 yards is 90 feet which works out to 1,080 inches. There are 258 pellets in an average 3/4 oz or 1.5 dram shot load how many pellets would hit a mansized target at 30 yards and would they be concentrated into a pattern as that shown in the report? Nope.

The external velocity of number 7.5 shot is 1200 fps at the muzzle slowing down to 765 fps at 30 yards the average 7.5 shot is .094 dia, the energy of a single pellet at 30 yards is 1.5 fpe (foot pounds of energy). Do these pellets have enough energy left at 30 yards to penetrate 3 layers of clothing at that distance? Highly doubtful.

These numbers were taken from my Reloading For Shotgunners 2nd edition. I am not a mathmatician so anyone that is better at math than I please feel free to correct my numbers.

Ft/sec doesn't mean much to most folks. 750 ft/sec is equivalent to 500+ miles/hour. I believe that a pellet less than .1 inches diameter traveling at that velocity would penetrate 3 layers of clothing unless one of them was body armor.

The following web site presents some interesting info and pictures on shot spread at 30 yards [Markedly different than what would be calculated from the info presented above.] that may shed some light on the issue.

http://www.chambermates.com/background.htm

 

[poncho]

Cool site OR I always wanted to now what would happen if a 28 gauge chamber sleeve was put into a 12 gauge shotgun. In other words they're firing 28 ga rounds through 12 gauge barrels. How does that compare to a straight 28 ga shotgun?

One and half foot pounds of energy isn't enough to go through three layers of clothing, unless of course you have magic pellets whether you believe it or not. Sorry.

 

[saturneptune]

Wait, wait, I have the answer. It just came to me. There was a second shooter from the grassy knoll.

 

[poncho]

Originally posted by saturneptune:
Wait, wait, I have the answer. It just came to me. There was a second shooter from the grassy knoll.

This theory has already been debunked. The only way this could be the case is if the grassy knoll was no further away from the vicitm than 15 to 20 feet. Maybe there was a second shooter wearing a magic invisibility ring or something because a man wearing even the best made ghillie suit in the would have been seen or stepped on even by people juiced up with Jack Daniels.

 

[Gina B]

It also takes a certain amount of energy to drive even a small fragment to get close to the heart. In this shooting as described that energy simply didn't exist. That isn't conspiracy it's math.

Poncho, why didn't you read what I said?

It doesn't have to be near the heart.

The easiest way to grasp this is to look at your hands and arms. Your veins are easily visible. Some are even sticking out.
Pick a vein on top of your hand. A tiny fragment could easily get to that.

Where do veins take blood?
Blood is sent to your heart and pumped back out.

That fragment could have been right under the skin and travelled to his heart. A fragment the size of a grain of sand can cause major trouble.

I remember having kidney stones. One of them honestly was no bigger than two pieces of sand put together. I was in the hospital because it irritated so much inside that it caused swelling and complete, COMPLETE blockage on one side.

A fragment wouldn't have to travel close to the heart to start with. It could have lodged right under the skin, been taken into the bloodstream, and caused this.

 

[poncho]

I read what you posted Gina I found it to be interesting and most likely quite true I haven't much education or experience in this area and I do not doubt what you are saying but the fact of the matter is that in this case it just doesn't matter. It's a side issue. I would suspect that with a 78 year old man depending on his health that just being peppered with shot from his buddies gun could give him a heart attack. Even if none of the little pellets broke the skin at all, which obviously they did.

If that little pellet only generates 1.5 foot pounds of energy at 30 yards. The chances of it or a bunch of them going through three layers of clothing to reach the skin on Mr. Whittington's chest inflicting the type of wound they did is what I would call impossible. I think the actual ballistics tests (in the video) and the math proves this.

It's easily provable by looking at the ballistics and the concentration of "hits" on Mr. Whittington's body that Cheney and Armstrong are lying about how this accident happened. And with that being the case it isn't that much of a stretch to say that the Secret Service the Kenedy county Sheriffs dept and the press are complicit in the lie and cover up.

All else after that imo are side issues and strawmen. People have been trying to get away from the scientifically provable fact that Mr. Whittington was shot from 15 to 20 feet by focusing on reporters and liberals and this, that and the other, all side issues that can be argued ad infinitum and come to nothing.

That is how this administration and the mainstream media have worked from the begining. Act dumb, lie, distract, distort, misinform, while always trying to instill fear and confusion. It's their Modus Operandi!

[ February 19, 2006, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: poncho ]

 

[Rocko9]

BTW,
Where is the spent shell casing?