A ambassador,a ranch, a V-POTUS, and not a peep from Lynne Cheney

[RockRambler]

I think the newsmedia missed the most important part of the story. Why didn't law enforcement talk to Mr. Cheney immediately? By talking 12 hours later, any sign of alcohol use was gone.

I don't blame the Vice-President for this, just local law enforcement. This just shows how the rich and powerful (Democrat or Republican) are treated different than the rest of us.

Call your local law enforcement and tell them that you shot someone in a hunting accident and see if they give you 12 hours before they want to interview you.

Sure, it was just one beer for lunch...I'd stick with that story too if I had just been involved in a hunting accident.

 

[poncho]

Originally posted by Petrel:
There're a ton of assumptions being made here. There was an assumption that Whittington actually received penetrating chest wounds, now there's the assumption that Whittington was directly behind Cheney. Cheney said before that Whittington was off to the right, meaning he'd only have to turn to his side to accidentally shoot him, rather than twirling around like a ballerina (and most likely landing on his rear). Now there's the assumption that Cheney's shotgun muzzle was pointed directly at Whittington's chest. I haven't tried out the math, but I suspect that if you aimed a shotgun level at someone's chest from 30 yards and pulled the trigger, most pellets would hit the ground before reaching the target. (This thing called gravity, you know. ) The target certainly wouldn't end up being hit in the face and neck.

So my point of view is that Whittington approached from the side, Cheney turned and fired up at a quail moving on a diagonal at a range much closer than 30 yards, and the pellets travelled in an arc (as is their wont) and intercepted Whittington on the way down.

And in reply to your critique, I think he's using bb's as slang for pellets. If you can find more substantial mistakes with the analysis, go for it!

Oh my very good friend I can and will. Give me a couple minutes. I'll be back.

 

[poncho]

Twenty-eight gauge shotgun shell accuracy, or load patterning is determined by counting the number of pellets which strike a target within a 30 inch diameter circle at forty yards.

He's talking pattern in a 30 inch circle. This is to fix that 30 inches firmly in your mind. He's working the propaganda hard here.

Patterns are normally expressed as a percentage such as 50%, 60%, 70% etc. This is the commonly accepted method comparing pattern density. In a 50% pattern ½ of all the pellets contained in the shell will strike inside of a circle of 30 inches in diameter. To find the percentage of any given load divide the number of hits inside the circle by the total number of pellets contained in the shell.

He is correct about patterning a shotgun but, he's working that 30 inch pattern to form another pattern in your mind my friend. He's engineering consent.

While it's probably safe to conclude that a Vice President who is an avid hunter, one who carries a shotgun worth thousands of dollars, would take advantage of the latest technology - steel shot, custom choke setting, etc., designed to maximize his targeting effectiveness, we don't have to go to such lengths to debunk the video. We can do it based upon standard stock ammunition and shotgun characteristics.

He's trying to debunk what your eyes can plainly see in the video. Watch the video. He's using terms that shotgunners should know in ways to confuse the non hunter shotgunners in the crowd. How many experienced hunters shotgunners do we have in this crowd? How many experienced reloaders do we have here in this crowd. Don't all your raise your hands at the same time now.

BTW, I own much cheaper shotguns and the only reason I would put that barrel damaging steel
shot in my guns is because I am forced to by law. This stuff will scratch up the innards of even the most expensive shotgun barrels in a rather short amount of time. Why spend a thousand dollars on a gun and then ruin it using this stuff?

It's quite possible Cheney was using steel shot as is common today which would increase the number of shot in the above load to approximately 350, though we likely don't need that edge. Also, 28 gauge guns typically have light recoil, pattern well, and point like a dream.

I thought Mr. Cheney was uh hum, an experienced hunter? Experienced hunters and real gun guys hate I mean absolutly hate steel shot. As a matter of fact I hate the fact that in NY as most places we're forced to use it while hunting waterfowl, that ducks and geese.

Given a choice between steel and lead shot for shooting critters lead is the only way to go, unless you are forced by the greenies to use it of course. As we have been in the case of waterfowl.

No experiened hunter worth his salt would even consider using steel shot on upland game. And Mr. Cheney is supposed to be considered an uh hum experienced hunter is he not? Now I can see John Kerry stuffing steel shot in his gun to down tweety birds but a he man republican NRA member like Cheney. Don't make me laugh.

This guy is working all the propaganda angles. Do I really have to go any farther than this Petrel?

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by RockRambler:
I think the newsmedia missed the most important part of the story. Why didn't law enforcement talk to Mr. Cheney immediately?

Apparently in Texas you aren't even required to report nonfatal hunting accidents to the police. So he actually did more than was required.

Poncho, haven't had time to read your posts!

 

[poncho]

That's cool Petrel. It would take forever to give you personalized lessons on deciphering propaganda anyways. It took me months to learn it myself. That's a study better done at ones own pace I reckon.

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by poncho:
That's cool Petrel. It would take forever to give you personalized lessons on deciphering propaganda anyways. It took me months to learn it myself. That's a study better done at ones own pace I reckon.

Oh, been there, done that, I'm a ex-young earther.

I read through the article again and your response, and there still isn't enough information to conclude that Cheney is lying. I prefer to believe people are telling the truth until it is shown that they are lying, even if this does make things a bit boring.

For instance, if it was proven that 200 pellets struck Whittington's face and neck only, not hitting his chest as well and being blocked by his clothing, then we could say that he is lying because that would be far too small a pattern. However, we don't know where the 200 figure comes from (I didn't see anywhere near that number of wounds on his face and neck, and I doubt they were picking through his clothing to find every last one), and we don't know the exact number of pellets that penetrated the skin on his face and neck. Additionally, if it could be proved that the pellets struck his chest, travelled through his clothing, and embedded under his skin, that again would prove Cheney is lying. But we have no evidence of this.

At this point it's a matter of opinion based upon which assumptions one chooses to hold as fact!

 

[Rocko9]

Originally posted by poncho:

Rocko9, I've never hunted quail here in the northeast like they do in Texas so correct me if I'm wrong okay?

From what I understand the hunters walk in more or less a straight line firing out in front them with a pre determined angle of swing always in front and never to the rear. As a hunter downs a bird he drops out behind the line of fire to retrieve it then rejoins the line after he's picked up the still live bird (in most cases) breaks it's little neck to put it out of it's misery.
QUOTE]
----------------------------------------
That was the way I was always taught, Poncho.
Another thing that makes me somewhat curious is that this covey of quail would have had to fly toward the line of hunters and then behind, this seem to contradict the nature of a hunted prey such as quail. How many times have you seen quail do this , I suppose it is possible but for the most part it is their nature to fly from a hunting party and not toward and then behind.

 

[poncho]

Rocko9,

My step father, the guy that taugh me about hunting shooting and caring for guns would have slapped my head off my shoulders if I did a 180 on the firing line with an unloaded gun. I doubt I'd even be here today if ever I did it with a loaded gun.

I haven't hunted quail enough to qualify as an expert. I can only go by what the experts teach.

I have hunted rabbits and squirrel with a quiver full of flu flu arrows though, using my 10 buck bow, that's the old recurve I found at a garage sale for 10 bucks with no sights. Instinctive shooting is great ever try it? And no, I don't figure I would miss any meals if all had was this setup and small game for targets. I usually score a 230 - 240 out of 300 points that's 60 arrows. And a 260 - 280 with my Hoyt huntmaster recurve set up for 3D shooting with three sight pins and a rear peep sight. Not to brag or nuthin.


Petrel,

I can't help if you have poor eye sight and can't see the wound on the Wildlife report. Sure it's fuzzy and on the wrong side but it plainly shows the wounds going from the head to the chest. He's lying. I'm sorry you have to hear this but that's just the way it is.

[ February 20, 2006, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: poncho ]

 

[RockRambler]

Apparently in Texas you aren't even required to report nonfatal hunting accidents to the police. So he actually did more than was required.

Again, not blaming Cheney at all for the 12 hour lapse...but I still find it hard to believe that law enforcement, having the report of a shooting, would wait 12 hour hours to interview someone. Yes, they might for the rich and powerful, but I really doubt they would wait that long for the average hunter.

More and more it appears to me that the alcohol use might be what everyone was wanting to hide. It appears they succeeded.

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by poncho:
My step father, the guy that taugh me about hunting shooting and caring for guns would have slapped my head off my shoulders if I did a 180 on the firing line with an unloaded gun. I doubt I'd even be here today if ever I did it with a loaded gun.

Here too!

"Treat every gun as if it were a loaded gun." "When someone hands you a gun, check to make sure it's unloaded, even if you already know it is." "Never point a gun at something that you wouldn't want shot." "When you go downrange, unload your gun, open the action, and notify all other shooters." "Always be sure of your backstop." I've heard it all many times!

I can't help if you have poor eye sight and can't see the wound on the Wildlife report. Sure it's fuzzy and on the wrong side but it plainly shows the wounds going from the head to the chest. He's lying. I'm sorry you have to hear this but that's just the way it is.

I can't help if you can't read.

Right next to the picture it states that Whittington was shot in the face and neck. I wouldn't base anything off of that picture, especially since it is colored on the wrong side!

 

[Rocko9]

Originally posted by RockRambler:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Apparently in Texas you aren't even required to report nonfatal hunting accidents to the police. So he actually did more than was required.

Again, not blaming Cheney at all for the 12 hour lapse...but I still find it hard to believe that law enforcement, having the report of a shooting, would wait 12 hour hours to interview someone. Yes, they might for the rich and powerful, but I really doubt they would wait that long for the average hunter.

More and more it appears to me that the alcohol use might be what everyone was wanting to hide. It appears they succeeded. </font>[/QUOTE]Right now it is the only thing that makes any sense as to how they conducted their PR campaign.If Cheney and the group he was with had been found out that they were not sober it would have created a scandal and would have put the American trust in Cheney into a tailspin.

Poncho, I haven't handled a recurve since I was a kid on a Navajo reservation. It is one of my most fondest memories of being taught how to shoot the bow and arrow from a Navajo Chief. I still like to drool over the Recurves every time I hit the BassPro Shop In Springfield Missouri.

 

[poncho]

Well, ya got me cold there Petrel I do sometimes struggle with the new PC english langauge. But I can read this just fine.

Armstrong, in an interview with The Associated Press, said Whittington, 78, was mostly injured on his right side, with the pellets hitting his cheek, neck and chest during the incident, which occurred late Saturday afternoon.

She said emergency personnel traveling with Cheney tended to Whittington until the ambulance arrived.

Cheney's spokeswoman, Lea Anne McBride, said the vice president met with Whittington and his wife at the hospital on Sunday. Cheney "was pleased to see that he's doing fine and in good spirits," McBride said.

The shooting was first reported by the Corpus Christi Caller-Times on its Web site Sunday. The vice president's office did not disclose the accident for nearly 24 hours.

Armstrong said she was watching from a car while Cheney, Whittington and another hunter got out of the vehicle to shoot at a covey of quail.


Whittington shot a bird and went to look for it in the tall grass, while Cheney and the third hunter walked to another spot and discovered a second covey.

Whittington "came up from behind the vice president and the other hunter and didn't signal them or indicate to them or announce himself," Armstrong said.


"The vice president didn't see him," she continued. "The covey flushed and the vice president picked out a bird and was following it and shot. And, by God, Harry was in the line of fire and got peppered pretty good."

SOURCE

Poncho, I haven't handled a recurve since I was a kid on a Navajo reservation. It is one of my most fondest memories of being taught how to shoot the bow and arrow from a Navajo Chief. I still like to drool over the Recurves every time I hit the BassPro Shop In Springfield Missouri.

Cool Rocko9! My ole man taught me in the back yard. He was showing off with his new fangled compound bow one day loosed an arrow with a field point it bounced off a tree limb and stuck in our bird dogs short rib. Guess who got the blame? I'll give ya hint...it wasn't the ole man!

The dog was okay, broke a rib but didn't penetrate more than a quarter inch or so. He was one sore puppy for a couple weeks though. That dog had some bad luck he went ice fishing with my brothers and I one day and his back legs dropped down an old hole and wasn't the same after that. I liked that old dog too.

[ February 20, 2006, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: poncho ]

 

[poncho]

Looks like you were right Gina.

The imaging showed that a pellethad migrated to Whittington's heart. Dr. David Blanchard, director of emergency services at the Texas hospital, and one of Whittington's doctors, issued a statement yesterday saying that he was having irregular heart rhythms triggered by the birdshot. A hospital spokesman said that he was in stable condition. "He is being closely monitored," said Peter Banko, a hospital administrator.

This is the first I've seen anyone say anything about how many hits Mr. Whittington sustained.

Training in New York City, Graver saw many gun wounds, including some from birdshot. The lead pellets fan out and lodge just under the skin. He said it is virtually impossible to remove all pellets that lodge in a birdshot accident. Because it is mostly skin deep, the pellets are left alone. There are between six and 200 pieces of birdshot lodged in Whittington's body. His doctors said they are not intending to remove the pellets.

200 pieces? Does that mean only 59 LEAD pellets missed? Seems like alot of hits for a distance of 30 yards. So much for the steel shot theory. Petrel.

SOURCE

 

[Petrel]

Oops, this topic dropped off my radar yesterday.

That says 6-200 pellets? Couldn't they narrow the range any further? Surely that doesn't mean 6-200.

I was never a steel shot theory fan, and neither was my source, he just mentioned it as one variable.

 

[poncho]

Guess some people are afraid to commit. I mean the victim with all the holes is Dick Cheney's good hunting partner. Think about it man...Dick Cheney, just that name itself makes people quake in their cowboy boots. Or grovel on their knees in front of the republicrat altar or even perjure themselves.

 

[poncho]

The Rant
Secret Service agents say Cheney was drunk when he shot lawyer
By DOUG THOMPSON
Feb 22, 2006, 07:35

A written report from Secret Service agents guarding Vice President Dick Cheney when he shot Texas lawyer Harry Whittington on a hunting outing two weeks ago says Cheney was "clearly inebriated" at the time of the shooting.

Agents observed several members of the hunting party, including the Vice President, consuming alcohol before and during the hunting expedition, the report notes, and Cheney exhibited "visible signs" of impairment, including slurred speech and erratic actions, the report said.
According to those who have read the report and talked with others present at the outing, Cheney was drunk when he gunned down his friend and the day-and-a-half delay in allowing Texas law enforcement officials on the ranch where the shooting occurred gave all members of the hunting party time to sober up.

We talked with a number of administration officials who are privy to inside information on the Vice President's shooting "accident" and all admit Secret Service agents and others saw Cheney consume far more than the "one beer' he claimed he drank at lunch earlier that day.

"This was a South Texas hunt," says one White House aide. "Of course there was drinking. There's always drinking. Lots of it."

Cheney has a long history of alcohol abuse, including two convictions of driving under the influence when he was younger. Doctors tell me that someone like Cheney, who is taking blood thinners because of his history of heart attacks, could get legally drunk now after consuming just one drink.

If Cheney was legally drunk at the time of the shooting, he could be guilty of a felony under Texas law and the shooting, ruled an accident by a compliant Kenedy County Sheriff, would be a prosecutable offense.

But we will never know for sure because the owners of the Armstrong Ranch, where the shooting occurred, barred the sheriff's department from the property on the day of the shooting and Kenedy County Sheriff Ramon Salinas III agreed to wait until the next day to send deputies in to talk to those involved.

Sheriff's Captain Charles Kirk says he went to the Armstrong Ranch immediately after the shooting was reported on Saturday, February 11 but both he and a game warden were not allowed on the 50,000-acre property. He called Salinas who told him to forget about it and return to the station.


More at the SOURCE.

 

[LadyEagle]

10-page warning: this thread will be closed no sooner than 9:30 p.m. ET by one of the moderators.

Lady Eagle,
Moderator

 

[Rocko9]

And it looks like there may be some new job openings in the Secret Service. I don't expect we will be priviy to seeing a Secret Service report on the incident though.

 

[poncho]

I hear there is alot of good honest illegal immigrants looking for work.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Petrel:
Here's an alternate take on it, saying that the story is consistent with the facts.

The info presented in the site you posted seems to be consistent with the info I presented earlier in the following:

http://www.chambermates.com/background.htm </font>[/QUOTE]