A Baptist History Question

[rlvaughn]

Bro. Glen, how long has it been since we've had a Baptist History thread go for 6 pages?? Look what you started!

Concerning arrogance among Campbell's "Churches of Christ" and Baptists - I don't think it is any more commendable in one than the other. But in my experience, which is admittedly limited, I have found a far greater consistency of arrogance among "Campbellites" than among Baptists. And at least most Baptists don't think everyone will go to hell simply because they forgot to dot an i or cross a t. The logical extension of the doctrine of some of the strictest Campbellites I know would require absolute knowledge and correct practice in all things in order to get heaven. For example, it's not enough to immersed in obedience to the Lord's command; one must also believe he is being immersed in order to be saved. And that kind of thing just goes on and on without end. But I think the Renewing God's People book helps one to look a little more "kinder and gentler" toward the origins of these people (not that I think they were right, but many did have a sincere desire for Christian unity and a knowledge of the truth). Perhaps the C'sOfC and D'sOfC represent the two extremes of the movement and that something wasn't right in the middle.

 

[rlvaughn]

rsr, yes, you certainly may call me Bro. Robert. You can even call me Robert if you wish. It's the name my parent's gave me and the one to which I mostly commonly answer. After 45 years, I've kinda grown to like it. Besides it's the name of my grandfather and General Lee. On official documents, I am usually R. L.

Jeff, I have visited among some of the Duck River Baptists, New Hope Baptists in GA & AL, and Jasper & Pleasant Valley Associations in Georgia. Many denominational experts consider them to be Separate Baptists in the historical Baptist tradition. They are somewhat different from the Separate Baptists found in the South Kentucky Assn. et. al. - http://www.separatebaptist.org. This later group is soteriologically closer to Free Will Baptists and Wesleyans and may be heir to some General Baptist thinking. I am not that familiar with them. The first group comes from a stronger "predestinarian" tradition, but are at varying degrees along the scale, and might be close to Regulars and Old Regulars on that. They're certainly not thorough-going Calvinists.

Here are some things that denominational writer had in mind in describing their worship as being "like the holiness."

Very unstructured service which depended as much or more on leadership of the Spirit as any kind of order of service.
Very spirited singing; likelihood of someone shouting or getting otherwise rambunctious.
Extemporaneous preaching, with no preacher appointed ahead, but called on when it was time for preaching. Preaching style would be what some would refer to as sing-song. Some of us know what that means; I don't know if I could explain it, but it's still quite standard among Black Baptists.
Concert prayer - in which everybody prays out loud all at the same time.
Footwashings, river baptisms, untrained preachers, etc.

These are some things I can remember that he would have had in mind. Probably their worst crime, though, was that many of these kinds of churches (none of the above mentioned associations) were nominal members of the Georgia Baptist Convention - in name only, but supported the work in absolutely no way at all. There is one entire local association that the GBC lists in their annual that has not one single church that sends anything to them, not even membership reports. Don't really know why they even list them. This was true ten years ago, but could have changed to some extent by now. The GBC is always working toward bringing these people more completely into their fold.

 

[Jim1999]

Your American church history is so fascinating, I have been just sitting back reading about it.

Our church history in Canada is rather bland. The oldest Baptist Church in York (now Toronto) was a Black church, and it is still functioning to-day, although mixed now.

Some of our early churches came from the Scottish Baptists and settled in Lower Canada (Quebec). Tow I served as pastor were at Dalesville and Lachute, Quebec, built by the early Scottish masons (builders, not Masonic). The walls are four foot thick.

Someone mentioned the old Covenant Baptist Churches. We had one in southwestern Ontario near Guelph, but they had infrequent services because they waited for a pastor to come from the USA to preach. I don't think the exist anymore.

Cheers lads, always a delight to meet with you, the gents of the board,

Jim

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Jeff, I have visited among some of the Duck River Baptists, New Hope Baptists in GA & AL, and Jasper & Pleasant Valley Associations in Georgia.

I would be interested in a report about the Duck River Baptists. I have never had any exposure to them.

Many denominational experts consider them to be Separate Baptists in the historical Baptist tradition. They are somewhat different from the Separate Baptists found in the South Kentucky Assn. et. al. - http://www.separatebaptist.org. This later group is soteriologically closer to Free Will Baptists and Wesleyans and may be heir to some General Baptist thinking. I am not that familiar with them.

The group with which I am familiar is part of the General Association of Separate Baptists. My sister-in-law was a member of one their churches prior to her marrying my brother. Both are now Southern Baptists. I have been to the General Association session of General Baptists on two occasions. I wrote a lengthy paper on them for a History of Religion class in college. I wish I could find it. I did several interviews with their (Separate Baptist) leadership in the late 1970s.

The first group comes from a stronger "predestinarian" tradition, but are at varying degrees along the scale, and might be close to Regulars and Old Regulars on that. They're certainly not thorough-going Calvinists.

Just an aside, you know that Old Regulars are called Soft-shells as opposed to Primitives being called hard-shells? My fathers family were Regulars, and am quite familar with this group. I wish one of them would show up and participate here, but it is doubtful.

Here are some things that denominational writer had in mind in describing their worship as being "like the holiness."

Very unstructured service which depended as much or more on leadership of the Spirit as any kind of order of service.

Robert, I realize you didnt write this, but will make the comment for those that might happen by this thread here on the BB. -- There are many non-holiness type baptists who would understand this as well. It seems to be more of a "country" baptist thing than one of simply being of the holiness persuasion.

Very spirited singing; likelihood of someone shouting or getting otherwise rambunctious.

Again, a condesending comment there at the end -- the choice of the word rambunctious.

Extemporaneous preaching, with no preacher appointed ahead, but called on when it was time for preaching. Preaching style would be what some would refer to as sing-song. Some of us know what that means; I don't know if I could explain it, but it's still quite standard among Black Baptists.

It isn;t just common among Black Baptists, it is typical of Appalachia as well. I know exactly what you mean there as well. The style isn't exclusive to those of a holiness persuasion. As for no preacher being appoint ahead of time. That is our practice here in Appalachia as well. You never know who is going to preach until the arrangements are made about 5 minutes before the preaching begins. It is the practice in these parts (and I don't agree with it, but I am in the minority) that one of the deacons will inquire of the congregation who is to preach. And that is that.

Concert prayer - in which everybody prays out loud all at the same time.

You will hear this occasionally in some Regular, Separate, and Southern (probably others as well) Baptist churches in some parts of the country. I don't think it is as prevalent as in days past.

Footwashings, river baptisms, untrained preachers, etc.

Again, not exclusive to holiness types.

These are some things I can remember that he would have had in mind. Probably their worst crime, though, was that many of these kinds of churches (none of the above mentioned associations) were nominal members of the Georgia Baptist Convention - in name only, but supported the work in absolutely no way at all. There is one entire local association that the GBC lists in their annual that has not one single church that sends anything to them, not even membership reports. Don't really know why they even list them. This was true ten years ago, but could have changed to some extent by now. The GBC is always working toward bringing these people more completely into their fold.

Well, isn't that special.

Southern Baptists in many places have the same problem. I know of cases of a local Southern Baptist Association that has carried a church on its roles for years that hasn't sent a delegate to their meetings or a dime to its coffers. One church that immediately comes to mind, at ont point called a Southern Baptist minister as their pastor, and got them in the association, but after that they returned to their "Old Regular" Baptist roots, and they consider themselves Old Regular, but the Southern Baptists still claim it as a member. Why in the world they do this is beyond me as well. I am sure you know our (Primitive Baptist) practice. If a church doesn't send delegates or letter to the local association, a group is dispatched to determine why, and if the next year they don't represent themselves, they are dropped from the roles.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Jim1999 noted:

Someone mentioned the old Covenant Baptist Churches. We had one in southwestern Ontario near Guelph, but they had infrequent services because they waited for a pastor to come from the USA to preach. I don't think the exist anymore.

Jim

That would have been me.

The churches were served for years by Elder George Rushton, but after he died Elder Stewart McColl assumed the pastorate of these congregations. Elder McColl had some unorthodox ideas (as I understand it, I don't know him, nor have I conversed with him about it). At any rate, there was dissension there and he was no longer their pastor. Elder David Gardner was travelling up there once a month from Eastern North Carolina for a while, but he was/is (I don;t know if he still living or not) elderly. When I lived in Northern Virginia, and was healthier than now, I considered going up there, but never did. I did visit with the Old School Baptists in New York, who were also having their minister come from eastern North Carolina at the time. Those churches in New York have their pastor coming from Maryland. They are very small in number. The pastor of the last Old School Baptist church in Maine also travelled there from Salisbury, Maryland. It is exceedingly difficult to pastor a church if you must live some distance away. I have attempted it, but dont recommend it as a general practice. I pastored the First Baptist Church of Wilmington, Delaware (Old School aka Primitive) for a number of years but lived in the Washington, DC area. I drove the 120 miles each way nearly every Saturday afternoon and again on Sunday afternoon.

How close to these folks are you Jim? I am not sure any of them are still living, but will inquire if you are interested.

Jeff.

 

[rsr]

A (temporary?) quirk of SBC polity.

FBC Oklahoma City has cut its ties with the SBC. However, it is still a member of the Capitol Baptist Association and the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

rsr

I don't know how temporary the quirk is. I have documents going back decades, and it seems to be the practice that unless a church specifically asks to me removed from the rolls it wont be. The results tend to inflate Southern Baptist statistics, IMO. I think this has been discussed before, but I don't believe they have anywhere close to the numbers they claim as to the number of churches or members. One local association a couple of counties away from where I live, lists 60 churches, but at least 15 of them haven't represented or sent a contribution in at least 10 years, some long than that, one nearly 40 years. Other associational annuals I have seen usually have a church or two that haven't represented for awhile. How pervasive is this? Just curious.

 

[tyndale1946]

Originally posted by Jeff Weaver:Bro. Glen wrote:

This is probably the quietest forum on the BB Well see what a fine mess you have gotten us to this time Ollie?

Okay I'll take the blame I started it

It just gets better from here on out with facts and circumstances.

I attend a Black Church sometimes actually it meets when we don't and you who are PBs and know of our ways and mannerism know where I'm coming from... Little Bethany meets 1st and 3rd Sunday... And Mt. Calvary the black congregation meets 2nd and 4th.

Maybe it is just in this part of the country or maybe it is the mannerism of the black preachers or just there way but I have seen some dancing preachers... I guess the white brethren are more reserved but the black... darkies... colored brethren let it all hand out so to speak. I have two questions... The first one is more of an observation... I have been to meetings with my congregation and others of the white brethren but it seems that we are afraid to say anything during the preaching... Expressing ourselves in joy whereas the black brethren are not afraid to let go... Is that a cultural thing or what?... I've heard tales of hillfolk in Jeffs part of the country that on Sunday would raise the roof. Whats up?... We can shout our head off at a football game but come to church and we are suppose to sit there quiet as a church mouse and many do!... I'm not speaking of an amen corner either... Some would holler "Amen Brother" if we were adjorning for lunch. Your thought on how you are suppose to behave yourself in worship service?... Or are we suppose to be so staunch and strict because our forefathers were?

Question two... I told you I attend service with a black congregation when I am able... During the Civil War when the blacks were slaves what was there religious upbringing like and why were they usually Baptist?... Did the master allow them to go to church or did they have church among themselves?... I think I have heard of slave preachers?... As much as I would like to say it doesn't exist prejudism does run deep and if one of the black brethren should happen to read this I would like his view also!... Here I go stirring up the pot again but like an Old Baptist ... Brother Glen

 

[rsr]

I think it's probably temporary because the SBC leadership won't put up with it for long.

I may well be wrong. I hope I am. Time for some backbone in the associations and state conventions.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. Glen noted:

The first one is more of an observation... I have been to meetings with my congregation and others of the white brethren but it seems that we are afraid to say anything during the preaching... Expressing ourselves in joy whereas the black brethren are not afraid to let go... Is that a cultural thing or what?... I've heard tales of hillfolk in Jeffs part of the country that on Sunday would raise the roof. Whats up?... We can shout our head off at a football game but come to church and we are suppose to sit there quiet as a church mouse and many do!... I'm not speaking of an amen corner either... Some would holler "Amen Brother" if we were adjorning for lunch. Your thought on how you are suppose to behave yourself in worship service?... Or are we suppose to be so staunch and strict because our forefathers were?

Decorum in church? Never. Actually we do have written rules of conduct, but there is nothing in them about raising the roof, and it is common in these mountains among Primitive Baptists and other groups out of the "mainstream" of religious thought. I've never seen it in an Episcopal, Methodist or Presbyterian meeting. I have seen it, though rarely in Southern Baptist meetings. In older style churches (Primitive Baptists, Old Regulars, Free Wills, Separates) it is common to hear shouting. Doesn't necessarily happen every meeting time, but isn't so unusual as to draw stares either. A more common emotional expression is crying. That is usually the way I express the emotion that is within me. That doesn't draw a stare either. Some of the preachers when they get carried out (a mountain term) with the spirit will wander all over the meeting house. Doesn't draw a stare or warrant a second thought among us, but it is unusal for those not brought up in that environment. I realized some of these things after I left the mountains. I do notice them more since we have come back as well. I feel perfectly at home among African American Primitive Baptists. Their mannerisms seem perfectly normal to me. As to how we are supposed to act -- I dont honestly have an answer for that one.

Question two... I told you I attend service with a black congregation when I am able... During the Civil War when the blacks were slaves what was there religious upbringing like and why were they usually Baptist?... Did the master allow them to go to church or did they have church among themselves?... I think I have heard of slave preachers?... As much as I would like to say it doesn't exist prejudism does run deep and if one of the black brethren should happen to read this I would like his view also!... Here I go stirring up the pot again but like an Old Baptist ... Brother Glen

There is a book that I wish I could get for you that addresses this question, but it is out of print, called the Chalice and the Covenant by Mark Sexton. I had a couple of copies, but they have long since wandered away from home. BTW, Mark is a white person, and had wonderful cooperation from African Americans he interviewed for the book. It is an excellent resource in this area, but limited in its geographic/theological scope.

First, however, it is a fallacy to think that most African-Americans were Baptists in the antebellum period. (I think we discussed this before). They usually attended the church their master approved them attending. The switch happened after the war, when the former slaves wanted their own churches. While many denominations had formal educational requirements, Baptists did not, and thus African Americans found it easier to find an African-American to pastor a church. That is why most African Americans of a religious persuasion now are members of Baptists or Baptist deriviative churches.

Some types of Baptist Churches went out of their way in the after-math of the Civil War to establish churches for the freedmen. Primitive Baptists and Old Regulars certainly did this. The Old Regulars were more successful in the areas where they were than the Primitives because Old Regulars are almost always Republicans and Primitives (in Appalachia) are almost always Democrats. The Chalice and the Covenant book covers this. Some predominately white churches continued to have African-American members even into the period of Jim Crow. The church where I am currently a member had African American members until the 1920s. I have seen this in other church records as well.

That all said, there were some masters who allowed slaves to have their own churches in the antebellum period. There was a considerable amount of trouble associated with this however. Some states had laws which prohibited more than X number of black people congregating without a white person in attendance. Some slave owners insisted on their slaves attending services where they attended, perhaps out of theological ideals, but just as likely so they could "keep an eye on them." Still other slave owners would have wanted these folks out in the fields working, and not getting any "uppity" ideas.

I would likewise like some contribution from any African Americans who might have a contribution on this subject.

Jeff.

[ January 04, 2003, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]

 

[Jim1999]

Brother Jeff, I am a good 250 miles one-way from where that church would be, and too far for these old bones to travel on a Sunday.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Jeff Weaver:
I would be interested in a report about the Duck River Baptists. I have never had any exposure to them.

They are basically modified Calvinistic "Country" Baptists as described above. In his History of Middle Tennessee Baptists, J. H. Grime indicates that they were early influenced by the "Restoration" movement, split off from the main body of Baptists, then sluffed off the "Campbell-Stone" movement to remain much as they are today. That somewhat explains their modified Calvinism. He called them Separate Baptists, and evidently they may have referred to themselves as such early on. I have heard other Baptists in north Alabama refer to them as Separates, but never heard them thus refer to themselves. But that may just be a lack on my part.

There are many non-holiness type baptists who would understand this as well. It seems to be more of a "country" baptist thing than one of simply being of the holiness persuasion.

I think you're right. In some areas of the country, I have heard some non-cooperative Baptists simply refer to themselves as "Country Baptists." By non-cooperative, I mean old Baptists who have no real identifiable name (such as Primitive, Old Regular, United), they just call themselves Baptists, nor they do not cooperative with any group such as SBC, ABC, BBF, etc. The "holiness" term used by the writer I mentioned earlier was probably as much derogatory as explanatory. My point is that what many people may associate with "holiness" (as did this writer) was actually historically Baptist, and the Holiness people that have some of the same practices and traits may have gotten them from the Baptists - especially Separate Baptist influence. The original Particular/Regular services seem to have been more orderly/reserved. Several holiness/pentecostal/charismatic groups originating in the late 1800's came out of the Baptists.

It isn't just common among Black Baptists, it is typical of Appalachia as well.

I mentioned the Black preaching style because of the likelihood of more people being familiar with it. A true sing-song style is seldom heard in these parts among white Baptist preachers, even Primitive Baptists. There are some exceptions, this is just a generalization.

It is the practice in these parts (and I don't agree with it, but I am in the minority) that one of the deacons will inquire of the congregation who is to preach. And that is that.

That seems to be somewhat like the practice of the Absoluters here, especially in large meetings - the deacons make the preaching arrangements. In the regular meetings, there's usually no more than 3 preachers present, and all of them will be given time to speak. But in the separate/country Baptist churches and associations that I have mentioned, it appears to be the consistent practice that the moderator (pastor) is responsible for calling on whomever he feels led to call upon. In regular services only two preachers usually preach (plus whatever the moderator may have to say). I preached with them a little 10 or so years ago. You can be sitting there listening to the "introductory" sermon and the moderator will walk up and give you the Bible, indicating you're next. Realize this is anecdotal evidence, speaking only to actual churches I've visited, and may not be true of all of them.

[ January 04, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[Jeff Weaver]

RLV noted:

and the moderator will walk up and give you the Bible, indicating you're next. Realize this is anecdotal evidence, speaking only to actual churches I've visited, and may not be true of all of them.

It works the same way in Appalachia. I probably have been to 200 different churches around these parts, and it is a consistent practice among the majority here.

BTW, Robert, you have successfully avoided answering my question about preparing an Elmer Clark type listing for all the Baptist groups. I will help as best I can if you will undertake such a project.

There are lots of little Baptist groups here and there to which I have not been exposed, and it would be interesting to learn more about them.

Jeff.

[ January 04, 2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Brother Jeff, I am a good 250 miles one-way from where that church would be, and too far for these old bones to travel on a Sunday.

I can appreciate that. I dont like travelling distances much anymore either. Ravages of diabetes is something that I completely understand.

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Jeff Weaver:
BTW, Robert, you have successfully avoided answering my question about preparing an Elmer Clark type listing for all the Baptist groups...

I guess I wasn't successful enough, since you noticed that I was avoiding it.

BTW, I think of the majority of churches in the Duck River Associations probably use musical instruments, but I can't speak authoritatively. The two north Alabama associations are non-instrumental altogether, I think. So it seems that this group does not care whether one uses instruments or not.

 

[Jim1999]

In the early days in Wales,,I am thinking late 30's and early 40's, many of the churches allowed only a pitch pipe for the song leader, and the people sat in church according to their voices rather than as a family. These were the Welsh Methodists and Baptists.

We Anglicans, of course, had pipe organs and all.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[rlvaughn]

Interesting, Jim. We do that at singings - divide and sit according to voice parts - but I don't think I've every seen that done in actual church services. It was once the common practice, though, for men to sit on one side of the building and women on the other. It is my understanding that this is still practiced in some areas.

BTW, I've seen a pitch pipe used a few times, but it generally seems to be frowned upon among non-instrumental Baptists. The A. Campbell "Churches of Christ" commonly use them.

[ January 05, 2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[Jim1999]

I haven't been in Wales for years, but I understand it is still common in Northern Wales among the Methodists.

In England I can't recall it ever being so, except when I went to the Plymouth Brethren, where women were not permitted to speak and did sit on one side of the assembly.

It is so interesting to read about the different practices down through the centuries....aside from the apostasy, of course. Even that throws some light on reactions within the churches.

Cheers,

Jim

I don't know why some people find history boring!

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Back some years ago, when I was in the military, I had opportunity to attend a couple of Strict Baptist chapel services in or near London. (Don't remember the geographical fine points now). These folks didn't use musical accompanyment with the hymns. I have heard differing oppinions as to whether they all sing acapella or not. They used the hymnal complied by William Gadsby, and obtained a couple of copies and brought them back.

At any rate, the practices among the Strict Baptists differed to some degree from their kin here in America, but doctrinally were very much in agreement. About 25 years ago our folks hosted a Mr. Alexander (Strict Baptist) from England and he was allowed to preach in our meeting houses, and these meetings were well attended. I was in college at the time, but made time to attend a couple of services.

BTW, Bro. Robert, you promised to send me a link about a church in Florida using the Gadsby hymnal. Do you have it. If not, not a problem.

Have any of you all ever heard of a series of books called the Forest Fold Pulpit Series published by the Strict Baptist (Gospel Standard variety) in England. I obtained a partial set on ebay some time back -- good stuff.

At any rate, the question is basically for Jim. Did you encounter any Strict Baptists while you were in England, and if so what were your opinions of them.

BTW, I am not laying out of church this morning, we are having a bad snow storm and the roads are dangerous.

Jeff.

 

[tyndale1946]

I don't want to steal Jeffs thunder but I also have a question for Jim... Did you not say that there were Primitive Baptist in Canada or was that England and where are they?... Or am I in error and you never made that statement? How far do our Primitive Baptist roots run and are there others close to our beliefs and practices and who are they?... For you other brethren what ever happened to the Trumpet and Peace Baptist?... Brother Glen