A Biblical Defense of Arminianism #1

[Steven Yeadon]

Essentially both systems teach Lordship salvation .

Both systems do not corrupt the Gospel of say 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 if they are wrong. Instead, they are possibly false doctrine accepted with no purposeful ill intent.

 

[Yeshua1]

Then how is it that you are an arminian?

There are some in of their ranks that hold to OSAS!

 

[Yeshua1]

Depends on what you mean by " the work of the Holy spirit ' We have no verse that says the Holy Spirit ' draws ' anyone .

The Father does that!

 

[Barry Johnson]

Both systems do not corrupt the Gospel of say 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 if they are wrong. Instead, they are possibly false doctrine accepted with no purposeful ill intent.

I believe Calvinism does violate 1 cor 15 verse 3
how that Christ died for our sins; according to the scriptures..

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I believe Calvinism does violate 1 cor 15 verse 3
how that Christ died for our sins; according to the scriptures..

That is an interesting critique, I hope some Calvinists will defend their position vis a vis the idea limited atonement compromises the Gospel if incorrect.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I believe God needs to show mercy and not harden for anyone to be saved. That said, I believe at some point in their lives God wants to show mercy to everyone.

However, as in the case of Pharaoh, God can harden to damnation if He wants. That said, I do not doubt Pharaoh had opportunities to repent before God lost patience with him and his genocide of Israelites.

I'm not sure i would use Pharaoh as an example of new testament salvation.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Agreed, I'll call myself a synergist.

I'd Just not answer the Calvinst philosophy questions as they are given as a shaming tactic to impose what they consider a superior position. Monergism/Synergism is a false dichotomy invented in the 1890s. Calvinists are synergists based on their own definitions of these terms.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I'm not sure i would use Pharaoh as an example of new testament salvation.

I feel the best way forward is to take the bull by the horns in relation to Romans 9. Did God ever desire the salvation of Pharaoh or Judas? If not, then the average synergist position lacks accuracy.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I'd Just not answer the Calvinst philosophy questions as they are given as a shaming tactic to impose what they consider a superior position. Monergism/Synergism is a false dichotomy invented in the 1890s. Calvinists are synergists based on their own definitions of these terms.

Wow, can you explain? I would like to know if the monergism/synergism debate is an artificial construct.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I feel the best way forward is to take the bull by the horns in relation to Romans 9. Did God ever desire the salvation of Pharaoh or Judas? If not, then the average synergist position lacks accuracy.[/QUOTE

Romans 9 is about the Tempory hardening of Israel who had rejected their messiah first.

 

[atpollard]

I believe Calvinism does violate 1 cor 15 verse 3
how that Christ died for our sins; according to the scriptures..

You would be mistaken. I am a Calvinist and Christ died for my sins. Steve is an Arminian and Christ died for Steve's sin. Therefore neither Calvinism nor Arminianism prevented Christ from dying for OUR sins (as 1 Cor 15:3 claims).

 

[Barry Johnson]

You would be mistaken. I am a Calvinist and Christ died for my sins. Steve is an Arminian and Christ died for Steve's sin. Therefore neither Calvinism nor Arminianism prevented Christ from dying for OUR sins (as 1 Cor 15:3 claims).

according to the scriptures Jesus died for not just my sins ,or just your sins , nor just Steve, s sins ,or Calvinists/ Arminain sins . But every single person head for head ,soul for soul. 2cor 5.19

 

[atpollard]

according to the scriptures Jesus died for not just my sins ,or just your sins , nor just Steve, s sins ,or Calvinists/ Arminain sins . But every single person head for head ,soul for soul. 2cor 5.19

You are adding words to 2 Cor 5:19 and ignoring the context of the rest of the chapter.
(Of course you will just respond to any attempt to exegete with another round of "Scripture Pong", so I will simply let anyone interested in the word of God read what scripture says for themselves:

[2 Co 5:11-21 NASB]
11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences. 12 We are not again commending ourselves to you but [are] giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have [an answer] for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know [Him in this way] no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, [he is] a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all [these] things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Romans 9 is about the Tempory hardening of Israel who had rejected their messiah first.

Agreed, Romans 9-11 are a unit. Paul is talking about his hardened Jewish Brethren the whole time. Paul's argument ends with Paul saying they were hardened so that they may be shown mercy through the Gentile believers.

 

[Barry Johnson]

You are adding words to 2 Cor 5:19 and ignoring the context of the rest of the chapter.
(Of course you will just respond to any attempt to exegete with another round of "Scripture Pong", so I will simply let anyone interested in the word of God read what scripture says for themselves:

[2 Co 5:11-21 NASB]
11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences. 12 We are not again commending ourselves to you but [are] giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have [an answer] for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know [Him in this way] no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, [he is] a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all [these] things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

I have absolutely no idea of what your take on these verses are ? Am I to guess?

 

[Barry Johnson]

You are adding words to 2 Cor 5:19 and ignoring the context of the rest of the chapter.
(Of course you will just respond to any attempt to exegete with another round of "Scripture Pong", so I will simply let anyone interested in the word of God read what scripture says for themselves:

[2 Co 5:11-21 NASB]
11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences. 12 We are not again commending ourselves to you but [are] giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have [an answer] for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know [Him in this way] no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, [he is] a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all [these] things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

How else are we supposed to understand: ?

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

I have some posts I will make to explain why I am Arminian from scripture. This post centers on the doctrine God wants all saved. Another will center on the doctrine of human moral agency, as opposed to the terribly named doctrine of "free will." I confess no one is saved unless God shows mercy first as Romans 9 teaches. A third will look at the reality that faith in Jesus is not a work according to scripture.

The evidence thus adds up to a scriptural understanding in which God wants all saved, synergism is a valid interpretation of scripture, and we do not do a good work by putting faith in Jesus Christ. Thus, there cannot be boasting in synergism.

Here are scriptures affirming God wants all saved. I will start here, and I hope we have a good and respectful discussion.

Romans 11:32 NASB
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

2 Peter 3:9 NASB
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the [c]knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 23:37 NASB
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Ezekiel 18:23 NASB
Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “[k]rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32 NASB
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Ezekiel 33:11 NASB
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

Lamentations 3:33 NASB
For He does not afflict willingly
Or grieve the sons of men.

While scripture clearly says that God is not pleased with the death of anyone, none the less, that is the ultimate condition of all sinners. Since we were/are all conceived in sin, we were/are dead. Those of us who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ are born again and have spiritual and physical life.

I do not believe God granted mankind free will. I believe the doctrine of free will can be clearly traced to Lucifer since he was first created to invoke his will.

[Isa 14:13-14 KJV] 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Do you agree Lucifer was the first to invoke his will free of God's will?

Besides, all scripture instructs God's children to submit to His will.

The consequences of invoking our will:
[Jas 4:13-16 KJV] 13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 14 Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15 For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. 16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

While scripture clearly says that God is not pleased with the death of anyone, none the less, that is the ultimate condition of all sinners. Since we were/are all conceived in sin, we were/are dead. Those of us who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ are born again and have spiritual and physical life.

I do not believe God granted mankind free will. I believe the doctrine of free will can be clearly traced to Lucifer since he was first created to invoke his will.

[Isa 14:13-14 KJV] 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Do you agree Lucifer was the first to invoke his will free of God's will?

Besides, all scripture instructs God's children to submit to His will.

The consequences of invoking our will:
[Jas 4:13-16 KJV] 13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 14 Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15 For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. 16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

I don't want to go beyond scripture, but it does seem the serpent is the first rebel. He spawns rebellion in mankind and even angels.

I will have to think on your argument against free will. I will have to answer it in my third thread.

 

[Barry Johnson]

While scripture clearly says that God is not pleased with the death of anyone, none the less, that is the ultimate condition of all sinners. Since we were/are all conceived in sin, we were/are dead. Those of us who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ are born again and have spiritual and physical life.

I do not believe God granted mankind free will. I believe the doctrine of free will can be clearly traced to Lucifer since he was first created to invoke his will.

[Isa 14:13-14 KJV] 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Do you agree Lucifer was the first to invoke his will free of God's will?

Besides, all scripture instructs God's children to submit to His will.

The consequences of invoking our will:
[Jas 4:13-16 KJV] 13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 14 Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15 For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. 16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

Conceived in sin ?

 

[Van]

Lets look at just one of the many statements from the OP:

The evidence thus adds up to a scriptural understanding in which God wants all saved, synergism is a valid interpretation of scripture, and we do not do a good work by putting faith in Jesus Christ. Thus, there cannot be boasting in synergism.​

Lets say a person hears and understanding the gospel and then puts their faith in Christ. Ok so far.
Now does this result in "automatic salvation" where the person is immediately born anew, becoming a new creation, a child of God. Or does "the will of God" play a part, i.e. He alone decides whether to credit your faith as righteousness or not?

I think Arminians say salvation occurs automatically when you trust in Christ.