A Bronze Snake on a Pole

[psalms109:31]

John 3:
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[The Greek for lifted up also means exalted.] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[Some interpreters end the quotation with verse 21.]

Numbers 21:
The Bronze Snake
4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,[Or the Sea of Reeds] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”

6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

8 The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

Do you think that the bronze snake had a prejudice, or respecter of person or favoritism of who got healed, did it turn away anyone who turned to it?

Do you think there was people who didn't believe and died?

My two kids are so different, I can't deal with them the same way. I can't expect one to be like the other. In fact there is no one like me, when I look around me I can see I am different than everyone else.

Since we are all different can anyone be saved like me or come to the same conclusion as me?

Jesus say's come follow me and I will make you fishers of men, He say's He will change you.

Does Jesus have prejudice, or respecter of person or favoritism of who got healed, did He turn away anyone who turned to Him?

Our we exalting Jesus or our method of salvation?

 

[David Lamb]

(snip)
Do you think that the bronze snake had a prejudice, or respecter of person or favoritism of who got healed, did it turn away anyone who turned to it?

No I don't. The bronze snake was just that: a model of a snake made out of metal. It had even less ability to show favouritism than the real snakes did! It certainly had no power to turn away people who looked to it for healing. Almighty God had pronounced that when anyone bitten by a real snake obeyed His command, and looked at the bronze snake, he would live. How could a lifeless object change what God had said?

Do you think there was people who didn't believe and died?

I may be missing some obvious scripture reference, but I am not awareof anywhere in the bible that tells us. All we know is that if anyone bitten had disobeyed God's command, they would have died.

My two kids are so different, I can't deal with them the same way. I can't expect one to be like the other. In fact there is no one like me, when I look around me I can see I am different than everyone else.

Since we are all different can anyone be saved like me or come to the same conclusion as me?

Of course the fine details of your testimony will be different to every other Christian's testimony, but the basic truth of salvation only in Jesus Christ and through His completed work on the cross is the same for all Christians.

Jesus say's come follow me and I will make you fishers of men, He say's He will change you.

Does Jesus have prejudice, or respecter of person or favoritism of who got healed, did He turn away anyone who turned to Him?

Our we exalting Jesus or our method of salvation?

No, Jesus never did (and never will) turn away anyone who comes to Him. He Himself said:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." John 6:37 (my emphasis)
​

 

[Winman]

All the people were being bitten and would have died. This represents mankind, we are all sinners, and the wages of sin is death.

The bronze serpent on the pole of course represents Jesus being made sin for all the people.

The promise was to all the people who were bitten, not an elect few. Anyone who was willing to believe God's promise and look (faith, dependence) to the bronze snake was instantly healed. This shows regeneration follows faith.

 

[convicted1]

All the people were being bitten and would have died. This represents mankind, we are all sinners, and the wages of sin is death.

The bronze serpent on the pole of course represents Jesus being made sin for all the people.

The promise was to all the people who were bitten, not an elect few. Anyone who was willing to believe God's promise and look (faith, dependence) to the bronze snake was instantly healed. This shows regeneration follows faith.

That which I bolded was the first thing that came to my mind when I thought about that bronze serpent. :thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

That which I bolded was the first thing that came to my mind when I thought about that bronze serpent. :thumbsup:

That IS what the bronze snake on the pole represents, the scriptures say Jesus was made sin for us. And the pole represents the cross, which represents Jesus being made a curse for us, as the scriptures say anyone hung on a tree is accursed of God.

Some teach a person is regenerated to have the ability to have faith, this story refutes that, no one was healed (regenerated) until AFTER they looked to the bronze snake in faith, already having believed God's promise given to them through Moses.

This story also refutes Limited Atonement, the bronze snake provided healing for everyone who was bitten, not a select few.

 

[revmwc]

That IS what the bronze snake on the pole represents, the scriptures say Jesus was made sin for us. And the pole represents the cross, which represents Jesus being made a curse for us, as the scriptures say anyone hung on a tree is accursed of God.

Some teach a person is regenerated to have the ability to have faith, this story refutes that, no one was healed (regenerated) until AFTER they looked to the bronze snake in faith, already having believed God's promise given to them through Moses.

This story also refutes Limited Atonement, the bronze snake provided healing for everyone who was bitten, not a select few.

It required faith for them to look upon the serpent. They needed to believe that to look up would bring healing.
We looked up to see Jesus we called upon Him in Faith for salvation, Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The bronze = judgement and Christ took our judgement upon Himself by hanging on a pole (cross) so that faith in Him has become the issue, He paid for or Atoned for man's sin and we just need to look up to Him for Salvation by calling on His name.
That is seen so beautifully in the bronze serpent hanging on the pole.

 

[preacher4truth]

Did all of Israel, every single person, get bitten?

 

[revmwc]

Did all of Israel, every single person, get bitten?

Numbers 21:6 "...they bit the people and many Israelites died.." this is what scripture says. It bit the people, does this mean all the people or some of the people? To me it mean all of the people, now does that mean Moses and Aaron and the leaders were bitten? Were they part of the people?

 

[Winman]

Did all of Israel, every single person, get bitten?

Did God heal any person that was bitten that did not first look to the bronze serpent?

Were they healed to have the ability to look on the bronze serpent, or did they have to look upon the bronze serpent to be healed?

And so it is to be born again also;

Jn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Does verse 15 teach you must have life to believe, or does it teach you must believe to have life?

No man that was bitten was healed and lived unless he first looked to the bronze serpent.

God doesn't say "Be saved and look unto me", he says, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."

You must submit to God to be saved, you must look to him only and no one else. Believeing is not a work, it is submission to God.

 

[preacher4truth]

Did God heal any person that was bitten that did not first look to the bronze serpent?

Were they healed to have the ability to look on the bronze serpent, or did they have to look upon the bronze serpent to be healed?

And so it is to be born again also;

Jn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Does verse 15 teach you must have life to believe, or does it teach you must believe to have life?

No man that was bitten was healed and lived unless he first looked to the bronze serpent.

God doesn't say "Be saved and look unto me", he says, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."

You must submit to God to be saved, you must look to him only and no one else. Believeing is not a work, it is submission to God.

Is the above to be a rebuttal of:

Did all of Israel, every single person, get bitten?

Where did I ever say what you are arguing against with yourself?

If this is some "rebuttal", you've developed an argument based upon not one thing I've implied nor stated, and are thus arguing against your ownself Winman.

You have a very difficult time following logic and reason and see things that are not there and then develop an argument based upon these things unseen and unsaid.

 

[Winman]

Is the above to be a rebuttal of:




Where did I ever say what you are arguing against with yourself?

If this is some "rebuttal", you've developed an argument based upon not one thing I've implied nor stated, and are thus arguing against your ownself Winman.

You have a very difficult time following logic and reason and see things that are not there and then develop an argument based upon these things unseen and unsaid.

Well then, what was the point of your question, what are you getting at?

 

[preacher4truth]

Well then, what was the point of your question, what are you getting at?

I'll get to that when you admit you go down rabbit trails of your own device and then argue against yourself in pretence to be rebutting another.

 

[revmwc]

I'll get to that when you admit you go down rabbit trails of your own device and then argue against yourself in pretence to be rebutting another.

Well I did answer your post as I thought you meant it. So can we get back on track with this?

 

[Aaron]

Do you think that the bronze snake had a prejudice, or respecter of person or favoritism of who got healed, did it turn away anyone who turned to it?

Do you think there was people who didn't believe and died?

Anyone who looked to the bronze snake was healed. The snake was not Christ, and it didn't save anyone's soul. It was a carnal type of Christ, and it had a carnal effect on a carnal situation in response to a carnal act.

But no one who was physically dead could look, and none of them were healed.

 

[psalms109:31]

Anyone who looked to the bronze snake was healed. The snake was not Christ, and it didn't save anyone's soul. It was a carnal type of Christ, and it had a carnal effect on a carnal situation in response to a carnal act.

But no one who was physically dead could look, and none of them were healed.

John 3:
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[The Greek for lifted up also means exalted.]

It looks to me as it is no difference than Jesus being lifted up exalted, but life eternal being healed physically from sin and only at the cross is where sinful man and God see face to face just for a split second to say I believe or not before He turns His back on us to forsake us for eternally.

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm checking out this passage, and also how our Lord used it in John 3:14-21.

I also don't believe this to be a serpent on a pole, but looks more like a serpent on a banner, or on a flag.

I know this doesn't lend itself to a cross, as many think it had to be a "pole" because Jesus was crucified upon a cross.

This is a poor hermeneutic in my opinion.

One thing I find interesting is some died, then the cure was brought. I see both justice and grace in this passage.

- Peace

 

[revmwc]

I'm checking out this passage, and also how our Lord used it in John 3:14-21.

I also don't believe this to be a serpent on a pole, but looks more like a serpent on a banner, or on a flag.

I know this doesn't lend itself to a cross, as many think it had to be a "pole" because Jesus was crucified upon a cross.

This is a poor hermeneutic in my opinion.

One thing I find interesting is some died, then the cure was brought. I see both justice and grace in this passage.

- Peace

The problem lies in part because of our image of the cross, check into the true configuration of a roman cross and you might get an answer to what it actually was.

 

[preacher4truth]

The problem lies in part because of our image of the cross, check into the true configuration of a roman cross and you might get an answer to what it actually was.

Share with us what you mean and know here about the true configuration of a cross.

 

[revmwc]

Crux simplex, a simple wooden stake. Image by Justus Lipsius
The crucifixion of Jesus.

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Justus_Lipsius_Crux_Simplex_1629.jpg

 

[Aaron]

I'm checking out this passage, and also how our Lord used it in John 3:14-21.

I also don't believe this to be a serpent on a pole, but looks more like a serpent on a banner, or on a flag.

I know this doesn't lend itself to a cross, as many think it had to be a "pole" because Jesus was crucified upon a cross.

This is a poor hermeneutic in my opinion.

One thing I find interesting is some died, then the cure was brought. I see both justice and grace in this passage.

- Peace

"lifted up"

Compare John 8:28 and John 12:32-33.