A Bronze Snake on a Pole

[psalms109:31]

Exodus 17 ]
The Amalekites Defeated
8 The Amalekites came and attacked the Israelites at Rephidim. 9 Moses said to Joshua, “Choose some of our men and go out to fight the Amalekites. Tomorrow I will stand on top of the hill with the staff of God in my hands.”

10 So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill. 11 As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning. 12 When Moses’ hands grew tired, they took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held his hands up—one on one side, one on the other—so that his hands remained steady till sunset. 13 So Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword.

14 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven.”


Wasn't Moses staff Considered a Banner?

What is the purpose of a Banner being raised up?

Can we win this Battle without lifted up the Banner?

James 5:
17 Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.

19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

 

[preacher4truth]

Then why the big fuss from you? .

This is typical of you, take that I find it is flag, and turn this it saying I'm denying it is a figure of Christ. No form of liogic nor reason can bring it to that end. None. But this is how you attempt to malign others and hope it sticks.

The only big "fuss" is coming from you. I'm only telling others what I've found.

You on the other hand insist on taking something and turning it into a denial of Christ. Quite unchristian of you Winman, and a huge farse.

 

[Winman]

This is typical of you, take that I find it is flag, and turn this it saying I'm denying it is a figure of Christ. No form of liogic nor reason can bring it to that end. None. But this is how you attempt to malign others and hope it sticks.

The only big "fuss" is coming from you. I'm only telling others what I've found.

You on the other hand insist on taking something and turning it into a denial of Christ. Quite unchristian of you Winman, and a huge farse.

Show where I said you denied Christ, I would love to see that. It was Revmwc that said some deny this was a figure of Christ. I never said you denied it was a figure of Christ, I simply argued that it was a figure of Christ because Christ himself compared his crucifixion to the serpent on a pole. I never said anything about you.

I personally don't care whether it was a solid brass serpent on a pole, or a flattened piece of brass mounted on a flag, I hardly see what difference it would make. Whatever it was, when the people looked in faith they were healed, they were not healed first so they could have the ability to look.

 

[revmwc]

This is typical of you, take that I find it is flag, and turn this it saying I'm denying it is a figure of Christ. No form of liogic nor reason can bring it to that end. None. But this is how you attempt to malign others and hope it sticks.

The only big "fuss" is coming from you. I'm only telling others what I've found.

You on the other hand insist on taking something and turning it into a denial of Christ. Quite unchristian of you Winman, and a huge farse.

Blame me for the thought in his post, my post whcih is #30 I said "To make it not on a pole removes the type of Christ from it and that is what a lot of folks don't believe that it is a type. Many don't believe that there are types in the O.T. showing spiritual things in the N.T. To me this is a type of Christ as it is to those who believe in types, while those who don't believe in types will try to explain it away. Whether that is what "preacher4truth" is doing I am not sure.

This also brought to mind the one on the pole conquered the power of the serpant and Christ defeated the serpant (satan) with His death on the Cross and the Ressurection is proof of it. It is just awesome how God reveals His plan in scripture." so I probably planted that there sorry.

Keep in mind that Christ was not alone on that pole, there was a sign on the pole with Him, just the standard could have been on the pole too. That would really make a complete picture of the cross.

 

[preacher4truth]

Show where I said you denied Christ, I would love to see that. It was Revmwc that said some deny this was a figure of Christ. I never said you denied it was a figure of Christ, I simply argued that it was a figure of Christ because Christ himself compared his crucifixion to the serpent on a pole. I never said anything about you.

I personally don't care whether it was a solid brass serpent on a pole, or a flattened piece of brass mounted on a flag, I hardly see what difference it would make. Whatever it was, when the people looked in faith they were healed, they were not healed first so they could have the ability to look.

Winman, you said it:

Those who would make a big fuss over this are obviously trying to argue away that it was a figure of Christ,

...concerning whether it was a flag or pole, as argued by me, saying I made a big fuss, then you said the above in response. If you can't remember what you've said, how can you undertand what others have said?

 

[revmwc]

Winman, you said it:



...concerning whether it was a flag or pole, as argued by me, saying I made a big fuss, then you said the above in response. If you can't remember what you've said, how can you undertand what others have said?

Again blame me and move on with it. Sorry to cause such a stink over this.

 

[Winman]

Winman, you said it:

I was responding to Revmwc's post where he said many deny the serpent on a pole was a figure of Christ. I didn't say one word about you. I simply said that those who do make a big fuss over whether it was a solid brass serpent mounted on a pole, or simply a flag or banner were obviously trying to deny it was a figure of Christ. That was what we call a GENERAL statement. If I wanted to say you specifically were doing this I would do so, I did no such thing.

You know, there are such things as GENERAL statements, perhaps you do not recognize them. Even Revmwc did not say you were denying this was a figure of Christ.

 

[preacher4truth]

I was responding to Revmwc's post where he said many deny the serpent on a pole was a figure of Christ. I didn't say one word about you. I simply said that those who do make a big fuss over whether it was a solid brass serpent mounted on a pole, or simply a flag or banner were obviously trying to deny it was a figure of Christ. That was what we call a GENERAL statement. If I wanted to say you specifically were doing this I would do so, I did no such thing.

You know, there are such things as GENERAL statements, perhaps you do not recognize them. Even Revmwc did not say you were denying this was a figure of Christ.

Not so Winman. In post #40 you admit it was in reference to me.

- Peace

 

[revmwc]

Not so Winman. In post #40 you admit it was in reference to me.

- Peace

I planted the seed so blame me and move on. Please get back on track.

Thanks and chill

 

[Winman]

Not so Winman. In post #40 you admit it was in reference to me.

- Peace

You do not read with comprehension, I asked you why you were making a fuss over this. That is called a QUESTION.

I'll ask you again, why the big fuss? You agree the serpent on a pole (whatever it was) was a figure of Christ. Why is it so important to know exactly what it was?

I do say that those who try to deny this is a figure of Christ do so because this story overthrows Total Inability. But you have already confirmed you agree it is a figure of Christ.

I will ask you this if you dare answer, does this story overthrow Total Inability? Does this story show those who were bitten and in a state of dying were ABLE to look in faith to the serpent on a pole and were AFTERWARD healed and lived?

Please answer that if you dare.

 

[Skandelon]

I think the example of the bronze serpent is a prime model for atonement as well. It shows how the atoning work can be provided for all, while only being effective for those who look in faith toward it for healing. God has made his truth very clear.

 

[Aaron]

I will ask you this if you dare answer, does this story overthrow Total Inability?

Nope. Those who were dead could not look.

Does this story show those who were bitten and in a state of dying were ABLE to look in faith to the serpent on a pole and were AFTERWARD healed and lived?

It took no faith. This was a physical type of a spiritual thing. Looking at the serpent saved no one's spirit. It provided a physical cure in response to a physical act, perfectly in the power of one who was physically alive.

As it is with our "looking unto Jesus." We don't physically look at Him. The spiritual reality provides a spiritual cure in response to a spiritual act, and only those who have been quickened have the power to look.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Nope. Those who were dead could not look.

Alternately, those who were NOT bitten didn't NEED to look. What does that say about Total Depravity?



Perhaps, when the plain sense makes sense we should seek no other sense?

 

[webdog]

Alternately, those who were NOT bitten didn't NEED to look. What does that say about Total Depravity?



Perhaps, when the plain sense makes sense we should seek no other sense?

Bingo! When you take a similie beyond it's intent it can also be taken the polar opposite way too. Not every human being alive at that time had been bitten

 

[Skandelon]

Bingo! When you take a similie beyond it's intent it can also be taken the polar opposite way too. Not every human being alive at that time had been bitten

Maybe that was what James was talking about when he wrote:

"...each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

Sounds like what the bite of sin can do to those who allow their hearts to grow hardened to the clearly seen and understood revelation of God.

 

[revmwc]

Alternately, those who were NOT bitten didn't NEED to look. What does that say about Total Depravity?



Perhaps, when the plain sense makes sense we should seek no other sense?

Numbers 21:6 "...they bit the people and many Israelites died.." this is what scripture says.
So are you saying that this verse says they bit some of the people and many died or should it read they bit many of the people and many of those died, or was it maybe they bit the people God chose them to bite and those would look at the serpent and not die and the rest needed not to lok at the serpent because the serpents only bit a few of the pwopel.
Seems the verse says they bit the people and many died. So God had the serpent placed on a pole for all to see.

Seems clear who was bitten, the people (all) were bitten and when they were bitten they needed to look upon the serpent on the pole.

 

[webdog]

Numbers 21:6 "...they bit the people and many Israelites died.." this is what scripture says.
So are you saying that this verse says they bit some of the people and many died or should it read they bit many of the people and many of those died, or was it maybe they bit the people God chose them to bite and those would look at the serpent and not die and the rest needed not to lok at the serpent because the serpents only bit a few of the pwopel.
Seems the verse says they bit the people and many died. So God had the serpent placed on a pole for all to see.

Seems clear who was bitten, the people (all) were bitten and when they were bitten they needed to look upon the serpent on the pole.

You prove my point perfectly. Since you are using that text in support of augustinianism, it says nothing of the other nations. Can we then conclude only israelites were affected by the fall and not gentiles? See what happens when you take it beyond it's intent?

 

[kyredneck]

Alternately, those who were NOT bitten didn't NEED to look. What does that say about Total Depravity?

.........They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2:17

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for Him.

Fortunate are those that have been made to feel the serpent's awful sting. Fortunate indeed are those that have been made to hunger and thirst after righteousness.

 

[Winman]

Nope. Those who were dead could not look.

It took no faith. This was a physical type of a spiritual thing. Looking at the serpent saved no one's spirit. It provided a physical cure in response to a physical act, perfectly in the power of one who was physically alive.

As it is with our "looking unto Jesus." We don't physically look at Him. The spiritual reality provides a spiritual cure in response to a spiritual act, and only those who have been quickened have the power to look.

Nonsense, Jesus directly compared his crucifixion with the serpent on a pole in Jn 3:14 and then begins verse 15 with the word "that" that ties it to verse 14, explaining that those who believe in him "should not" perish, but "have" eternal life. The believeing is the cause, the having life is the effect.

Jesus said you have to first believe to have life, just as those Israelites who were bitten by the fiery serpents were in a state of dying and were not healed until AFTER they looked in faith at the serpent on the pole. They weren't first healed and then looked at the serpent afterward.

But this is what Calvinism teaches, that a person must first be healed to have the ability to "look". Calvinism teaches the exact OPPOSITE of what scripture teaches.

 

[revmwc]

You prove my point perfectly. Since you are using that text in support of augustinianism, it says nothing of the other nations. Can we then conclude only israelites were affected by the fall and not gentiles? See what happens when you take it beyond it's intent?

what does augustinism teach? Haven't studied anything on his teaching.
I see the people representing all mankind and all who look to the cross and Christ crucified will be saved. Christ became the atonenment for all mankind He paid for our sins as well as the whole world.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Seems He is the propitiation (appeasement) for our sins but not ours only but the sins of the whole world. Pauls words and what Paul wrote inspired by the Holy Spirit I believe.