A Bronze Snake on a Pole

[menageriekeeper]

Numbers 21:6 "...they bit the people and many Israelites died.." this is what scripture says.
So are you saying that this verse says they bit some of the people and many died or should it read they bit many of the people and many of those died, or was it maybe they bit the people God chose them to bite and those would look at the serpent and not die and the rest needed not to lok at the serpent because the serpents only bit a few of the pwopel.
Seems the verse says they bit the people and many died. So God had the serpent placed on a pole for all to see.

Seems clear who was bitten, the people (all) were bitten and when they were bitten they needed to look upon the serpent on the pole.

Nope, it doesn't say 'all' the people were bitten and it doesn't say that all the people who were bitten died. It says the people were bitten. What people? the Isaelites. The word 'people' might also designate only the general population and not Moses and Aaron, but we aren't given that specific.

We also aren't told how many were bitten. "Germany had an e-coli outbreak a few weeks ago". Can you tell from the previous sentence how many cases of e-coli constitutes an outbreak? No, neither can you tell from the passage how many of "the people" were bitten. It was significant but not specific.

Now lets look on, the passage also doesn't say that all who were bitten died, but "many died". So what did these "bitten but not dead" people possess that kept them alive without having a pole to look at? Did they become the undead? (yes, that was a vampire reference ) Were they elect? Were they "not totally depraved"?

What I said earlier stands. Either take the passage in its plain sense or explain all the details and perhaps lose some of your fav theological beliefs in the process.

.........They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2:17

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for Him.

Fortunate are those that have been made to feel the serpent's awful sting. Fortunate indeed are those that have been made to hunger and thirst after righteousness.

Umm, so those who lived without having looked up the serpant, who were they? Some "super Jew" who kept the Law and didn't complain? Some form of human not under sin's curse? Who were they? And if so, what does that say about Total Depravity.

Again, when the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense.

Christ said "If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me." Will they all come? No, for the same reason not every Isrealite looked at the serpant. No faith. Or maybe they were just plain angry that God sought to punish them in the first place. Or whatever reason men use today to turn to Christ. But the offer is there.

Here's another. Was it a "work" for the Isrealites to look at the pole or was it simple obedience that gained healing? Could the Isrealites boast "I healed myself by looking at the serpant?"

 

[revmwc]

Nope, it doesn't say 'all' the people were bitten and it doesn't say that all the people who were bitten died. It says the people were bitten. What people? the Isaelites. The word 'people' might also designate only the general population and not Moses and Aaron, but we aren't given that specific.

We also aren't told how many were bitten. "Germany had an e-coli outbreak a few weeks ago". Can you tell from the previous sentence how many cases of e-coli constitutes an outbreak? No, neither can you tell from the passage how many of "the people" were bitten. It was significant but not specific.

Now lets look on, the passage also doesn't say that all who were bitten died, but "many died". So what did these "bitten but not dead" people possess that kept them alive without having a pole to look at? Did they become the undead? (yes, that was a vampire reference ) Were they elect? Were they "not totally depraved"?

What I said earlier stands. Either take the passage in its plain sense or explain all the details and perhaps lose some of your fav theological beliefs in the process.



Umm, so those who lived without having looked up the serpant, who were they? Some "super Jew" who kept the Law and didn't complain? Some form of human not under sin's curse? Who were they? And if so, what does that say about Total Depravity.

Again, when the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense.

Christ said "If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me." Will they all come? No, for the same reason not every Isrealite looked at the serpant. No faith. Or maybe they were just plain angry that God sought to punish them in the first place. Or whatever reason men use today to turn to Christ. But the offer is there.

Here's another. Was it a "work" for the Isrealites to look at the pole or was it simple obedience that gained healing? Could the Isrealites boast "I healed myself by looking at the serpant?"

Exodus 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:
18 But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt.
19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

So how many of the people did God led about through the wilderness.

In Exodus 14:31 And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.

The people feared the Lord the same people He led about in the wilderness, and how many didn't cross the Red Sea?


Exodus 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none

Did the people go out on the seventh day, no it says some of the people. So it would appear that when dealing with the children of Israel the Holy Spirit would say the people when He dealt with all the people and when some of the people failed God said some.

Numbers 21:4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way.
5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.

Notice it doesn't say some of the people but the people spoke against God and Moses. Because of this God sent the serpants in judgement.
It would appear that ALL the people in disobedieince were bitten, all mankind is in disobedience to God and needs to look to the one on the Pole. That is Jesus Christ.

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm still wondering why it doesn't say they were all bitten, as I said wayyyyy back on this thread. Seriously, Why not all of them?


- Peace

 

[Skandelon]

I'm still wondering why it doesn't say they were all bitten, as I said wayyyyy back on this thread. Seriously, Why not all of them?

Because those who are bitten represent mankind who has fallen and need help. Jesus came for those who are sick, not those who are well.

We know that all have been bitten by sin, but that doesn't mean they know it. I believe those who haven't been bitten by the snake represent those who think they are well and don't need to look to the one who can heal them. Just my opinion.

 

[preacher4truth]

Because those who are bitten represent mankind who has fallen and need help. Jesus came for those who are sick, not those who are well.

We know that all have been bitten by sin, but that doesn't mean they know it. I believe those who haven't been bitten by the snake represent those who think they are well and don't need to look to the one who can heal them. Just my opinion.

All points to consider. I remain intrigued by all the passages concerning all of this. Not all really know this though.

 

[revmwc]

All points to consider. I remain intrigued by all the passages concerning all of this. Not all really know this though.

The passage says the people. not some, then it says many Israelites died, sort of a negative light on the Israelites, as they had murmored against God and His leader.
To me that indicates all the people were bitten, and the Israelites that had murmored died.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Really Revwmc we can play dueling scriptures for a long time. I play well too. But I'm only going to post just one:

Num 11:33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.
Num 11:34 And he called the name of that place Kibrothhattaavah: because there they buried the people that lusted.

Now, who did the Lord smite with a plague? "the people" And how many did He smite? No one knows cause He didn't tell us. We do know one thing, in this case the ones that died were indeed the ones who actively "lusted" (in this case after food). Perhaps that is who was bitten in the passage of the OP. Perhaps not.

 

[revmwc]

Really Revwmc we can play dueling scriptures for a long time. I play well too. But I'm only going to post just one:

Num 11:33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.
Num 11:34 And he called the name of that place Kibrothhattaavah: because there they buried the people that lusted.

Now, who did the Lord smite with a plague? "the people" And how many did He smite? No one knows cause He didn't tell us. We do know one thing, in this case the ones that died were indeed the ones who actively "lusted" (in this case after food). Perhaps that is who was bitten in the passage of the OP. Perhaps not.

Wow an easy one it appears they all were smitten with a great plague and they buried the ones who lusted. Who are the ones that lusted? Verse 4 And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?

A mixed multitude of the people lusted and they were buried in that place. Not all the people lusted but they all cried out.

 

[psalms109:31]

What if this being bitten was a constant thing that was attacking the people and people were dying and they cried for help and those who got bit looked upon the snake on the pole God's cure to be healed.

We have all been bitten by this and poisoned and we need to turn to Jesus and be healed.

 

[Aaron]

Alternately, those who were NOT bitten didn't NEED to look. What does that say about Total Depravity?

That's right. Those who don't sin don't need to look to Jesus. Now find me one who is not dead in sins and trespass, and that's what I'll tell her.

Perhaps, when the plain sense makes sense we should seek no other sense?

Perhaps you're taking the type further than what was intended?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Perhaps you're taking the type further than what was intended?

Exactly Aaron! I am absolutely taking the type further than intended. That's the whole point of what I've been saying.

 

[kyredneck]

Alternately, those who were NOT bitten didn't NEED to look. What does that say about Total Depravity?...

So? The passover lamb, a type of Christ just as the brazen sperpent, was to save ONLY the firstborn, no others were in danger.