A Call to Biblical Truth

[Protestant]

and that is where sda goes off into heresy, as they raise their freedom to observe sat as now mandatory for all to do such in order to be really saved!

So true. A few years ago I debated their doctrines when there were 3 SDAs posting their heresies on this board. Thankfully, they have taken their wicked beliefs elsewhere. Examining the writings of Ellen White proved to be eye opening as to the impossibility she was a prophet of God.
In your opinion is the Roman Catholic Church a true Christian Church?

 

[JesusFan]

So true. A few years ago I debated their doctrines when there were 3 SDAs posting their heresies on this board. Thankfully, they have taken their wicked beliefs elsewhere. Examining the writings of Ellen White proved to be eye opening as to the impossibility she was a prophet of God.
In your opinion is the Roman Catholic Church a true Christian Church?

There are saved persons in there, but saved by the grace of God, as the official doctrines and theologies of Rome in regards to salvation is heresy, as they hold to grace and good works saves, condemned by scriptures!

 

[Protestant]

There are saved persons in there, but saved by the grace of God, as the official doctrines and theologies of Rome in regards to salvation is heresy, as they hold to grace and good works saves, condemned by scriptures!

So you do NOT believe the RCC is a true Christian Church???

 

[37818]

So you do NOT believe the RCC is a true Christian Church???

I do not. There are Catholics who are genuine Christians who, of course, believe their membership Church is a true Christian church.

 

[Protestant]

I do not. There are Catholics who are genuine Christians who, of course, believe their membership Church is a true Christian church.

Hi 37818, thanks for entering the discussion. With your permission I would like to delve into the question of whether it is possible to be born again of the Spirit of God and remain in a Church which is not true to biblical Christianity.

Both you and Servant of Lord Jesus believe there are genuine, regenerated by the Spirit, Christians who remain in the Roman Catholic Church, despite the fact the Church of Rome is heretical, preaching and teaching a counterfeit Christianity.

In other words, it is a Church of lies.

No lie of the truth (1John 2:21).

Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6).

Therefore, the Roman Catholic Church is not of Jesus.

It is not Christian because it does not follow the truth of Christ.

Paul teaches the impossibility of following both the teachings of Christ and the Devil:

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Paul, who cannot lie or teach error, declares it is not until one leaves the idolatrous, lying, satanic Church of Rome that God will be his Father. Before then that person is not a child of God, not a part of God's true family, not a Christian.

Any comment??

 

[JesusFan]

Hi 37818, thanks for entering the discussion. With your permission I would like to delve into the question of whether it is possible to be born again of the Spirit of God and remain in a Church which is not true to biblical Christianity.

Both you and Servant of Lord Jesus believe there are genuine, regenerated by the Spirit, Christians who remain in the Roman Catholic Church, despite the fact the Church of Rome is heretical, preaching and teaching a counterfeit Christianity.

In other words, it is a Church of lies.

No lie of the truth (1John 2:21).

Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6).

Therefore, the Roman Catholic Church is not of Jesus.

It is not Christian because it does not follow the truth of Christ.

Paul teaches the impossibility of following both the teachings of Christ and the Devil:

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Paul, who cannot lie or teach error, declares it is not until one leaves the idolatrous, lying, satanic Church of Rome that God will be his Father. Before then that person is not a child of God, not a part of God's true family, not a Christian.

Any comment??

The Lord still saves out his own even in the church of Rome, as fully agree with you that Rome teaches heresies, but would see the Holy Spirit still can and does save out his own , and that once saved, should come out from among them!

 

[JesusFan]

I do not. There are Catholics who are genuine Christians who, of course, believe their membership Church is a true Christian church.

They really though should,depart from that church once saved!

 

[Protestant]

The Lord still saves out his own even in the church of Rome, as fully agree with you that Rome teaches heresies, but would see the Holy Spirit still can and does save out his own , and that once saved, should come out from among them!

Thanks for continuing the dialogue, Servant. Respectfully, the Scriptures I cited do not agree with your opinion. Paul explains it isn’t until that person actually leaves false Christianity that the Father will receive that person as a son or daughter of the Most High.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

There is no ambiguity in this teaching. Either Paul is correct or the many who believe otherwise (such as yourself, agedman and 37818) are correct, making Paul a false prophet.

There are several underlying factors which when misunderstood cause a person to believe it is possible to worship both the true God and many false gods of Catholicism.

1. The holiness of God which demands holiness from His children (1 Peter 1:15-16; Hebrews 12:14; 2 Timothy 1:9; Leviticus 20:26).

2. The holiness of God which demands repentance when a child of God sins. Without repentance there is no salvation (Luke 5:32; Luke 24:47; Acts 20:21).

3. The almighty power of God to transfer His chosen elect from the power of darkness to the kingdom of His dear Son (Col. 1:13).

4. All that are taught of God will come to Jesus, the Light of the world, leaving Satan, the Prince of Darkness (John 6:45).

5. Jesus is the Good Shepherd who leads His elect sheep to green pastures beside still waters in the paths of righteousness (Psalm 23). He does not leave them beside putrid, corrupt, poisonous waters or in paths of wickedness.

6. The promise of Jesus that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth who will guide His people into all truth (John 16:13). To do so He will guide His people out of lies which blaspheme the name of the true God.

These are but a few Scriptures which teach the impossibility of a truly regenerated child of God remaining in a religion of wickedness and lies. Thus, proof of regeneration requires leaving anti-Christian Catholicism for biblical Christianity.

Any thoughts??

 

[JesusFan]

Thanks for continuing the dialogue, Servant. Respectfully, the Scriptures I cited do not agree with your opinion. Paul explains it isn’t until that person actually leaves false Christianity that the Father will receive that person as a son or daughter of the Most High.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

There is no ambiguity in this teaching. Either Paul is correct or the many who believe otherwise (such as yourself, agedman and 37818) are correct, making Paul a false prophet.

There are several underlying factors which when misunderstood cause a person to believe it is possible to worship both the true God and many false gods of Catholicism.

1. The holiness of God which demands holiness from His children (1 Peter 1:15-16; Hebrews 12:14; 2 Timothy 1:9; Leviticus 20:26).

2. The holiness of God which demands repentance when a child of God sins. Without repentance there is no salvation (Luke 5:32; Luke 24:47; Acts 20:21).

3. The almighty power of God to transfer His chosen elect from the power of darkness to the kingdom of His dear Son (Col. 1:13).

4. All that are taught of God will come to Jesus, the Light of the world, leaving Satan, the Prince of Darkness (John 6:45).

5. Jesus is the Good Shepherd who leads His elect sheep to green pastures beside still waters in the paths of righteousness (Psalm 23). He does not leave them beside putrid, corrupt, poisonous waters or in paths of wickedness.

6. The promise of Jesus that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth who will guide His people into all truth (John 16:13). To do so He will guide His people out of lies which blaspheme the name of the true God.

These are but a few Scriptures which teach the impossibility of a truly regenerated child of God remaining in a religion of wickedness and lies. Thus, proof of regeneration requires leaving anti-Christian Catholicism for biblical Christianity.

Any thoughts??

It all depends on if the person is trusting in the Lord jesus alone to save him, or has bought into must be water baptized, take sacraments, do penance and confession etc to save them!

 

[Protestant]

It all depends on if the person is trusting in the Lord jesus alone to save him, or has bought into must be water baptized, take sacraments, do penance and confession etc to save them!

Respectfully Servant, you offer no Scripture which proves a child of God can remain in a false religion which demeans the sacrifice of Christ, demoralizes holiness and promotes idolatry. In other words, your alleged born- again Catholic child of God has no problem worshipping with those who are anti-Christ.

I am sorry to say this, but it is apparent you are woefully deficient in the knowledge of God, His power, and His requirements.

What is truly sad is the fact that too many professing Christians are equally deficient. May the efficacious gracious power of God reverse that deficiency.

Who will you believe and trust?..........Your personal opinion or the infallible God-breathed Scriptures?

 

[JesusFan]

Respectfully Servant, you offer no Scripture which proves a child of God can remain in a false religion which demeans the sacrifice of Christ, demoralizes holiness and promotes idolatry. In other words, your alleged born- again Catholic child of God has no problem worshipping with those who are anti-Christ.

I am sorry to say this, but it is apparent you are woefully deficient in the knowledge of God, His power, and His requirements.

What is truly sad is the fact that too many professing Christians are equally deficient. May the efficacious gracious power of God reverse that deficiency.

Who will you believe and trust?..........Your personal opinion or the infallible God-breathed Scriptures?

I stated VERY clearly that when one is saved, they should depart from the Church of Rome, same way would advise someone say in Sda who is saved to depart, but if they choose to remain, that will not undo their salvation, just will a conflict to if they should observe or not what that group upholds as the truth

 

[37818]

Any comment??

Your arguments are to be well taken.

See 1 John 5:1 with 2 John 1:9. One's salvation is not do to works. But believing correctly in God's Christ. Who died for one's sins and was bodily resurrected. Being wrong about works is works too. The bottom line is trusting in God's Christ, not works. God does the saving and does the keeping, John 10:28-30. 1 John 5:1, It does say baptism. It says what God does. I hope this helps.

My thinking someone is saved does not make that person saved. Nor my thinking a person is not yet saved does not make that person not yet saved.

 

[Protestant]

I stated VERY clearly that when one is saved, they should depart from the Church of Rome, same way would advise someone say in Sda who is saved to depart, but if they choose to remain, that will not undo their salvation, just will a conflict to if they should observe or not what that group upholds as the truth

Respectfully, Servant, You are assuming to be fact that which is the very question under debate. You are claiming there are Catholics born of the Holy Spirit of God who remain in the anti-Christian Catholic Church, despite all admonitions for them to depart. Those admonitions may come from you, the Word of God, the Spirit of God, and their conscience. Yet they remain steadfast worshipping with those who oppose the very teachings of Christ the 'born again Catholics' hold dear to their hearts.

Scriptures declare this to be an impossibility. I have listed several Scriptures to prove this point. I do not rely on my feelings or personal opinion. Rather I rely on the Word of God, which is my only authority. You, on the other hand, have yet to cite one Scripture which admits a born-again child of God can remain in a state of sin -- unwilling to leave anti-Christianity -- while at the same time be a holy, faithful, loving child of the Most High........ saved to the uttermost.

Although Christians are still capable of sin, our Father in Heaven will not allow His children to remain in sin. Hebrews 12 explains this truth. A Catholic who remains in anti-Christianity is no child of God. Granted, he may be quite religious, giving an outward appearance of salvation. Yet, by remaining, he proves God is not his Father, nor is Jesus his Lord and Savior.

 

[Protestant]

Your arguments are to be well taken.

See 1 John 5:1 with 2 John 1:9. One's salvation is not do to works. But believing correctly in God's Christ. Who died for one's sins and was bodily resurrected. Being wrong about works is works too. The bottom line is trusting in God's Christ, not works. God does the saving and does the keeping, John 10:28-30. 1 John 5:1, It does say baptism. It says what God does. I hope this helps.

My thinking someone is saved does not make that person saved. Nor my thinking a person is not yet saved does not make that person not yet saved.

I especially liked your reference to 2 John 1:19. The Scriptures which refute the position that it is possible to worship within an anti-Christian community, and at the same time be a regenerated child of God who refuses to separate from it, are so numerous, clear and without controversy.

I would like to explore your statement "My thinking someone is saved does not make that person saved. Nor my thinking a person is not yet saved does not make that person not yet saved."

You are correct. Our personal opinions and feelings are not the judge of one's eternal destiny. We have the authority of God's Word which is the measuring rod of truth. The Word lists many specific sins which, unless repented of, guarantees damnation. 1 Cor. 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:5; Rev. 21:8, 22:15. The Roman Catholic Church is guilty of many of the sins listed, if not all.

Rev. 18:4 warns those who remain in anti-Christianity will be judged harshly.

Jesus warns His disciples of false prophets and false brethren (Matthew 7). We are to judge their fruit. "Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" Do true Christians seek God's truth in an anti-Christian Church of thorns and thistles? Of course not.

By the authority of God's Word I can make an eternal judgment concerning the Roman Pontiff. He is no Christian. Those who remain faithful to him and his Church will fall with him.

 

[JesusFan]

Respectfully, Servant, You are assuming to be fact that which is the very question under debate. You are claiming there are Catholics born of the Holy Spirit of God who remain in the anti-Christian Catholic Church, despite all admonitions for them to depart. Those admonitions may come from you, the Word of God, the Spirit of God, and their conscience. Yet they remain steadfast worshipping with those who oppose the very teachings of Christ the 'born again Catholics' hold dear to their hearts.

Scriptures declare this to be an impossibility. I have listed several Scriptures to prove this point. I do not rely on my feelings or personal opinion. Rather I rely on the Word of God, which is my only authority. You, on the other hand, have yet to cite one Scripture which admits a born-again child of God can remain in a state of sin -- unwilling to leave anti-Christianity -- while at the same time be a holy, faithful, loving child of the Most High........ saved to the uttermost.

Although Christians are still capable of sin, our Father in Heaven will not allow His children to remain in sin. Hebrews 12 explains this truth. A Catholic who remains in anti-Christianity is no child of God. Granted, he may be quite religious, giving an outward appearance of salvation. Yet, by remaining, he proves God is not his Father, nor is Jesus his Lord and Savior.

One can be really saved, have eternal life, and yet be staying in a group have that all undone now then?

 

[JesusFan]

I especially liked your reference to 2 John 1:19. The Scriptures which refute the position that it is possible to worship within an anti-Christian community, and at the same time be a regenerated child of God who refuses to separate from it, are so numerous, clear and without controversy.

I would like to explore your statement "My thinking someone is saved does not make that person saved. Nor my thinking a person is not yet saved does not make that person not yet saved."

You are correct. Our personal opinions and feelings are not the judge of one's eternal destiny. We have the authority of God's Word which is the measuring rod of truth. The Word lists many specific sins which, unless repented of, guarantees damnation. 1 Cor. 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:5; Rev. 21:8, 22:15. The Roman Catholic Church is guilty of many of the sins listed, if not all.

Rev. 18:4 warns those who remain in anti-Christianity will be judged harshly.

Jesus warns His disciples of false prophets and false brethren (Matthew 7). We are to judge their fruit. "Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" Do true Christians seek God's truth in an anti-Christian Church of thorns and thistles? Of course not.

By the authority of God's Word I can make an eternal judgment concerning the Roman Pontiff. He is no Christian. Those who remain faithful to him and his Church will fall with him.

All depends on if the person is fully trusting in the finished work of the Lord Jesus to have saved them, or else relying upon catholic dogmas for salvation!

 

[Protestant]

One can be really saved, have eternal life, and yet be staying in a group have that all undone now then?

Respectfully, Servant, may I inquire as to your native language? I mean you no disrespect, but your sentences sometimes reflect English may be your second language. Should that be the case, I applaud you for your effort and desire to learn another language.

If I understand your question correctly, you ask if it is possible for a regenerated child of God to lose his salvation due to the fact of ongoing, continuous sin (such as remaining as an active member of anti-Christianity). The Bible clearly states (1 John 3):

"9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

The Apostle speaks of a life in which sin is habitual and persistent. Thus, the Catholic who claims to be a saved, born-again believer, yet remains part of the anti-Christian Catholic Church, is not a child of God, but rather a child of the Devil. That religious Catholic is deluded with a false sense of security. Sadly, the same can be said of many professing Evangelicals. I was listening to a sermon preached by the brilliant, Spirit-filled Reformed Baptist preacher, Henry Mahan, in which he stated his belief that the largest mission fields ripe for evangelizing are the local churches, due to their religious, but lost, condition.

 

[Protestant]

All depends on if the person is fully trusting in the finished work of the Lord Jesus to have saved them, or else relying upon catholic dogmas for salvation!

Servant, you fail to understand that salvation is the work and gift of God. It is an ongoing work of sanctification, growing, failing, repenting, etc. God's love and election go hand in hand. He loves them, cares for them, provides for them, chastises them, is the author and finisher of their faith, secures them from falling away from the faith, promises there is nothing or no one more powerful than the Father who holds us tightly -- nothing or no one can permanently separate us from the love of God.

Our God is a jealous God. He will not sit by idly when one of His chosen is in a state of rebellion and disbelief. The history of the Protestant Reformation's founding fathers were all ex-Catholics whom God had graciously opened their minds and hearts to the eternal truths taught in the Bible.

Those He loves He 'saves to the uttermost.'

When our Lord saves someone, He saves them from their erroneous beliefs and practices, along with their eternally damning consequences.

It is one thing to declare 'Jesus is Lord,' but another to walk the walk.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

 

[JesusFan]

Servant, you fail to understand that salvation is the work and gift of God. It is an ongoing work of sanctification, growing, failing, repenting, etc. God's love and election go hand in hand. He loves them, cares for them, provides for them, chastises them, is the author and finisher of their faith, secures them from falling away from the faith, promises there is nothing or no one more powerful than the Father who holds us tightly -- nothing or no one can permanently separate us from the love of God.

Our God is a jealous God. He will not sit by idly when one of His chosen is in a state of rebellion and disbelief. The history of the Protestant Reformation's founding fathers were all ex-Catholics whom God had graciously opened their minds and hearts to the eternal truths taught in the Bible.

Those He loves He 'saves to the uttermost.'

When our Lord saves someone, He saves them from their erroneous beliefs and practices, along with their eternally damning consequences.

It is one thing to declare 'Jesus is Lord,' but another to walk the walk.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

When is a lost sinner justified and saved then?

 

[Protestant]

When is a lost sinner justified and saved then?

Servant, the issue has never been WHEN a sinner is justified, the issue has always been IF a sinner was ever justified in the first place.

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

The Lord called Saul while on the road to Damascus. Saul was not looking for salvation, he was looking for Christians to arrest.

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Saul was one of God’s Elect, chosen to be a Christian, a son of the Most High, before the foundation of the world, though he was an evil man persecuting God’s true people when Jesus called him.

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

That supernatural inward calling of the Spirit is a call to holiness: He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Saul’s response to Christ was not one of disregard, but rather one of sincere obedience, “Lord, what wilt thou have me to do”?

Servant, when one is effectually called by God obedience is the response…… not disobedience continuing in sin and unbelief.

Catholics who profess they were called by God and justified by faith in Jesus, yet remain in fellowship with anti-Christianity, are fooling only themselves (and many deceived evangelicals, such as yourself and agedman).

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.