Being saved is due fully to the grace of God expressed towards us, and so the church that we attend will not undo salvation, but it will greatly affect how we mature in the faith, and would be extremely hard for say a saved catholic to not come out from their midst!
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A Call to Biblical Truth
- Thread starter Protestant
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There are saved Sda, who should depart from that church, but does not mean their salvation gets undone!
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Servant, because you refuse to address the numerous Scriptures and arguments I have cited, this will be my final communication to you.
Neither you nor agedman have cited one Scripture which teaches a professing Christian who persists in fellowship within an anti-Christian denomination is truly saved and secure in his heavenly destiny. You both cannot because there is none.
You, like many professing Christians, (such as agedman), believe there is nothing else expected of us once we believe. FYI, the Bible is replete with scriptural warnings to refute such an ungodly notion. These warnings are due to the fact that there are many who profess Christ as Lord, yet in reality they are workers of iniquity:
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? (2 Cor. 13:5).
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Matthew 7:21-23).
Please note the condition “but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
It is not the will of the Father that a child of His remain in sinful, hateful anti-Christianity. It is the will of the Father that that person separates from those who do not follow the teachings of Jesus, who worship a false Christ, who preach a false Gospel, who worships a Mother Goddess, who abuse children, whose history includes murdering the true Christians…… the list goes on and on.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty (2 Cor. 6:17-18).
Servant, I realize this teaching is new to you and agedman, but Jesus states unequivocally, If you love me, you will keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Love is the first fruit of the Spirit mentioned in Galatians (Galatians 5:22).
Love of God is the first and greatest commandment (Matthew 22:36-38).
Those who disobey Christ’s teachings, deny Christ.
Those who deny Christ, are no Christians. They do not love the Lord.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him (John 3:36 ESV).
Christ warns of ‘counting the cost.’
He warns His disciples He is to take precedence over their old life and previous family. Nothing less will suffice, if they wish to be His disciples (Luke 14:26 ff).
The reason Catholics remain in the Roman Catholic Church is because they are unwilling to sacrifice that sinful anti-Christianity which they so dearly love.
And the reason they are unwilling is because the Lord has not bestowed saving, irresistible grace, preferring to pass them by that they would be judged for their sins on the Last Day.
You take too much authority upon yourself to make such judgement of me.
Have you left family for the Lord? I have.
Have you left wealth and fame to serve Him? I have.
Have you laid trophies to His honor and glory at His feet? I have.
Yet, I am the least of all who believe, for others have even shed their blood for Him, have stood greater sacrifice for Him, and will be rewarded far more then this spec of dust in whom He first loved, first cherished, first brought to life before I ever knew Him.
My Savior said, “…love your neighbor as yourself…”.
Do you not love the lost? Even those who may be wolves in sheep cloth?
Standing firm in the faith and doctrines of the Christ brings its own rebuke from the world and those of the world. I don’t have to give them but the Scriptures.
If the Antichrist came to me I would give Scriptures, for in them is the power of God.
I am all for separation, even secondary separation, and have, over my years, needed to exercise both. Yet, if even one came in repentance I would receive them in the Lord.
Are we not to, “…be strong in the Lord and the power of His might…”?
If you find the need to separate from someone who claims belief, then do so. Do not, as some, impose your own standards upon others. Paul warned about deceivers, said to stay away from them, but he did not impose authority upon others to do so. He merely warned.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Agedman, I have called you out for having sympathies with those who dishonor and disrespect the commandments of God, who show utter contempt for His holiness, wisdom and righteousness……. while at the same time claiming to love, serve and worship the Triune God of the Bible.
In your personal opinion, there are genuine, saved, justified, regenerated, born of the Spirit Christians who willingly and happily remain in the cesspool of anti-Christianity called Roman Catholicism.
As I have been pointing out in my several rebuttal discourses, Scripture teaches no such thing. I then cited Scripture after Scripture as proof. I do so because my authority comes from the Holy Bible, not my personal feelings or personal wisdom.
Therefore, I take no authority upon myself to make judgment of anyone, whether you or Servant or Roman Catholics. I have simply taken your statements and, like a good Berean, compared your teaching with that of God’s teaching. Shamefully, your teaching is at odds with God’s teaching.
Why is that? You have ‘humbly’ admitted to the many sacrifices you have made in following Christ. Your ‘humility’ is evident as you admit you are ‘the least of all who believe.’ You have 10,000+ posts to your credit, which indicates your great interest in spiritual topics, as well as the need to share your ‘heavenly wisdom’ with others. Yet you are bereft of common sense when it comes to defending the honor, truth, wisdom, holiness and righteousness of God against the blasphemies and outright lies of the enemy.
I could give you instance after instance of the Catholic hierarchy and priesthood through the centuries purposely, willfully opposing the Lord God and His people by fire, sword, rape and torture. Your response would be ‘INFORMATIVE.’
My response when, as a new Christian, I learned of these things through independent study, was ‘Why the bloody Hell isn’t the Body of Christ exposing the evils of the Roman Church by shouting warnings from the rooftops?’
There can only be one explanation: It’s easier to go along and get along then to confront and expose the evil. You make more ‘friends’ that way.
Agedman then cites Scripture: “…love your neighbor as yourself…”.
His definition of love does not correlate to that of Scripture. Agedman’s definition is ‘turn a blind eye to the evils done -- in the name of Christ -- by your neighbor.’
Allowing your blind religious neighbor to happily skip down the wide path of destruction with nary a word of concern for the eternal punishment which awaits them is not love. Rather, it is the most uncaring, unloving thing an alleged ‘Christian’ could do.
Agedman then raises a question designed to ‘expose’ the shallowness of my faith: “Do you not love the lost? Even those who may be wolves in sheep cloth?”
Jesus does not give such an admonition. Rather, He warns of false Christians who have the outward appearance, but in their hearts are ravening wolves. We are to be not deceived, unlike agedman who has great fondness for the Roman Catholic wolves.
Agedman makes a bold and startling statement: “If the Antichrist came to me I would give Scriptures, for in them is the power of God.”
This statement is yet another proof of agedman elevating his wisdom over that of Scripture. The Antichrist has been decreed condemned already (Revelation 19:20). All the weeping, cajoling and Scripture quoting by agedman is not only useless, but has the same effect as Peter’s denial of the truth that Christ must be killed (Matthew 16:21-23).
Agedman’s next pearl of righteous wisdom states:
“I am all for separation, even secondary separation, and have, over my years, needed to exercise both. Yet, if even one came in repentance I would receive them in the Lord.”
We finally get to the crux of the matter. The entire thrust of the debate with agedman and Servant is the lack of repentance by Roman Catholics who claim status as children of the Most High God. They prefer instead to remain in anti-biblical Catholicism, despite the numerous admonitions and warnings to the contrary. Such overt disobedience is proof, according to the authority of Scripture, of reprobation, not approbation.
And finally, agedman gives us yet another piece of his holy mind:
“Do not, as some, impose your own standards upon others. Paul warned about deceivers, said to stay away from them, but he did not impose authority upon others to do so. He merely warned.”
I will quote the Bible’s standards, as I have done throughout these several debates:
Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them (Romans 16:17).
But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one (1 Corinthians 5:11).
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? (2 Cor. 6:14).
These Scriptures are not mere suggestions. Nor are they words of wisdom which a Christian may accept or reject at whim. They are the admonitions of an all-wise, loving, caring God who knows the craft and cunning of our enemy and wills our well-being and sanctification. To reject these warnings is to reject the God who gave them. These are not ‘mere’ warnings, as agedman would have us believe. How one responds to them is indicative of one’s love or hate for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
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I removed some of the post because of the limit of characters allowed.
So, your own personal feelings and wisdom have no input to the agenda of which you post?
If you know of my posting, you will also know that I often defend "the honor, truth, wisdom, holiness and righteousness of God against the blasphemies and outright lies of the enemy," especially to those who would present on this board.
I gave a brief of my testimony concerning sacrifice that you might know that I have faced such decisions and not that I am puffing myself up. There is nothing to puff up about me. I am a servant of the Lord and nothing else matters. What I do is for Him, not for my own gain.
You weren't being informative?
Are you taking the information you gave as not accurate, or not for the BB to be informed?
I don't understand your criticism of one marking a post as informative.
Throughout centuries, different folks desired to "purify" the RC. Martin Luther posted on the first Board (though not a Baptist one) a set of debate points. To his death he desired the RC to be reformed. Others through the ages were of the same mode.
The Church of England (Episcopal in America) is basically the RC tweaked a bit, and a group called "Puritans" desired more "tweaking." Those of us who were separatist knew the whole was rotten.
You are not alone in this cry. But rather from the rooftops, what is wrong with being "harmless as a dove" as I go about reaching out to those who need to "come out from among them?"
The writer of Jude would respond,
How are we to "contend for the faith?"
I have had no business partnerships with those who would resemble lawlessness, or even unbelievers. Though I admit I did higher some unbelievers as a business owner.
So we disagree upon this final point.
The warnings of the Scriptures come with principles to live by. They are not complex, and are applicable across a great number of various involvements.
For example, I do not partake of intoxicants as a matter of principle because I find the warnings of Scriptures would prevent me from doing so. Another who might associate drinking with the walk of an unregenerate if seeing me partake would present a slander to the testimony of Christ, so I do not take, and beside, our Lord did not partake either.
Certainly the enemy is cunning. That is why believers must live by principle and not by law.
As a principle we are to live as presented in Romans 12:
So, your own personal feelings and wisdom have no input to the agenda of which you post?
If you know of my posting, you will also know that I often defend "the honor, truth, wisdom, holiness and righteousness of God against the blasphemies and outright lies of the enemy," especially to those who would present on this board.
I gave a brief of my testimony concerning sacrifice that you might know that I have faced such decisions and not that I am puffing myself up. There is nothing to puff up about me. I am a servant of the Lord and nothing else matters. What I do is for Him, not for my own gain.
You weren't being informative?
Are you taking the information you gave as not accurate, or not for the BB to be informed?
I don't understand your criticism of one marking a post as informative.
Throughout centuries, different folks desired to "purify" the RC. Martin Luther posted on the first Board (though not a Baptist one) a set of debate points. To his death he desired the RC to be reformed. Others through the ages were of the same mode.
The Church of England (Episcopal in America) is basically the RC tweaked a bit, and a group called "Puritans" desired more "tweaking." Those of us who were separatist knew the whole was rotten.
You are not alone in this cry. But rather from the rooftops, what is wrong with being "harmless as a dove" as I go about reaching out to those who need to "come out from among them?"
The writer of Jude would respond,
"3Beloved, although I made every effort to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt it necessary to write and urge you to contend earnestly for the faith entrusted once for all to the saints. 4For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed—ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ...
How are we to "contend for the faith?"
17But you, beloved, remember what was foretold by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ 18when they said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow after their own ungodly desires.”e 19These are the ones who cause divisions, who are worldly and devoid of the Spirit. 20But you, beloved, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God as you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you eternal life. 22And indeed, have mercy on those who doubt; 23save others by snatching them from the fire; and to still others show mercy tempered with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh."
If I were a member of a church in which members were causing dissensions and hindrances contrary to the Scriptures I would and have turned away from them.
That you would assume I do associate with such a person shows how little you actually know about me, yet would malign me?
I hold not one in bounds, I am not bound.
I have had no business partnerships with those who would resemble lawlessness, or even unbelievers. Though I admit I did higher some unbelievers as a business owner.
So we disagree upon this final point.
The warnings of the Scriptures come with principles to live by. They are not complex, and are applicable across a great number of various involvements.
For example, I do not partake of intoxicants as a matter of principle because I find the warnings of Scriptures would prevent me from doing so. Another who might associate drinking with the walk of an unregenerate if seeing me partake would present a slander to the testimony of Christ, so I do not take, and beside, our Lord did not partake either.
Certainly the enemy is cunning. That is why believers must live by principle and not by law.
As a principle we are to live as presented in Romans 12:
14Bless those persecuting you. Bless and do not curse; 15to rejoice with the rejoicing, to weep with the weeping; 16minding the same thing toward one another, not minding the things haughty, but going along with the lowly. Do not be wise in yourselves, 17repaying to no one evil for evil, providing right before all men; 18if possible of you, living at peace with all men; 19never avenging yourselves, beloved; instead give place to wrath, for it has been written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
There is a difference between judgement and discernment that needs to be remembered.
Judgement is to condemn.
Believers are not to condemn anyone. That is solely God's responsibility.
However, we are to engage discernment. In that manner we learn temperance and are neither alarmed nor dismayed when we ourselves or others fail. We learn that though we may fall, we are not cast down. We learn to express that same love that God first loved us, though comparatively in a lesser amount for we are but flesh.
We are to test the Spirit to discern if it be of God or of the enemy.
We are to test the things written or spoken and especially by those who are presenting in a church service to validate that which is Scriptural and what is not. The Apostle said to hold to the one and trash the other.
We are to test our own salvation to see if we are believers. In that examination we may look upon the fruit to see if it is that of the Spirit of God living within us, or some fleshly agenda.
Perhaps you may think of other examples, but the point is to mark the difference between proclaiming judgement which belongs solely to God and practicing discernment which is from the Scriptures and guides, refreshes, enhances, nourishes, brings peace, joy, ...
Judgement is to condemn.
Believers are not to condemn anyone. That is solely God's responsibility.
However, we are to engage discernment. In that manner we learn temperance and are neither alarmed nor dismayed when we ourselves or others fail. We learn that though we may fall, we are not cast down. We learn to express that same love that God first loved us, though comparatively in a lesser amount for we are but flesh.
We are to test the Spirit to discern if it be of God or of the enemy.
We are to test the things written or spoken and especially by those who are presenting in a church service to validate that which is Scriptural and what is not. The Apostle said to hold to the one and trash the other.
We are to test our own salvation to see if we are believers. In that examination we may look upon the fruit to see if it is that of the Spirit of God living within us, or some fleshly agenda.
Perhaps you may think of other examples, but the point is to mark the difference between proclaiming judgement which belongs solely to God and practicing discernment which is from the Scriptures and guides, refreshes, enhances, nourishes, brings peace, joy, ...
Are we saved by being a member of any church, or saved by the Lord Jesus Cross and resurrection period?
I knew a Catholic who went to me in a baptist school, and we talked many times after classes, and went he came back next year after summer recess, the Holy Spirit had saved him and moved him to becoming a Baptist, so if I would applied your reasoning, would have just cut him loose to stay lost!
The Holy Spirit saved Him and moved him out of Rome, but on his time table, and not yours!
I appreciate your concern regarding the tru Gospel, as I too do not see Rome, Sda, JW, WoF, Lds etc teaching the true Gospel, but how soon once saved must they depart to another church then> Right away, next day, week, month etc?
Protestant
Well-Known Member
The Roman Catholic Church is a sinister organization steeped in superstition, witchcraft and sorcery.
But these are minor trifles to the ‘born-again Catholics’ agedman and Servant defend.
Tomorrow, February 3rd, the Catholic faithful will celebrate The Blessing of the Throats, a feast day to commemorate the miracle of St. Blaise, patron saint of Dubrovnik, Croatia.
Not only did Bishop Blaise successfully pray a wolf return a pig he stole, but he miraculously healed a young boy who was choking on a fish bone lodged in his throat. Thus, he is deemed a saint whose particular gift is healing all maladies whether or not they are throat related.
“Most often as part of the Mass, all parishioners desiring a blessing of their throats typically proceed to the front of the church where the priest with the two blessed candles, tied with a red ribbon, holds them in the form of an X. He touches the candles to each side of the person’s neck and says: “Through the intercession of St. Blaise, bishop and martyr, may God deliver you free from every disease of the throat, and from every other disease. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Source
Unfortunately, St. Blaise’s gift does not include curing the diseases of gullibility, dementia or mind control.
TO BE CONTINUED……..
But these are minor trifles to the ‘born-again Catholics’ agedman and Servant defend.
Tomorrow, February 3rd, the Catholic faithful will celebrate The Blessing of the Throats, a feast day to commemorate the miracle of St. Blaise, patron saint of Dubrovnik, Croatia.
Not only did Bishop Blaise successfully pray a wolf return a pig he stole, but he miraculously healed a young boy who was choking on a fish bone lodged in his throat. Thus, he is deemed a saint whose particular gift is healing all maladies whether or not they are throat related.
“Most often as part of the Mass, all parishioners desiring a blessing of their throats typically proceed to the front of the church where the priest with the two blessed candles, tied with a red ribbon, holds them in the form of an X. He touches the candles to each side of the person’s neck and says: “Through the intercession of St. Blaise, bishop and martyr, may God deliver you free from every disease of the throat, and from every other disease. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Source
Unfortunately, St. Blaise’s gift does not include curing the diseases of gullibility, dementia or mind control.
TO BE CONTINUED……..
Saying that the Lord can and does save Catholics is NOT saying that we agree with the theology of Rome!The Roman Catholic Church is a sinister organization steeped in superstition, witchcraft and sorcery.
But these are minor trifles to the ‘born-again Catholics’ agedman and Servant defend.
Tomorrow, February 3rd, the Catholic faithful will celebrate The Blessing of the Throats, a feast day to commemorate the miracle of St. Blaise, patron saint of Dubrovnik, Croatia.
Not only did Bishop Blaise successfully pray a wolf return a pig he stole, but he miraculously healed a young boy who was choking on a fish bone lodged in his throat. Thus, he is deemed a saint whose particular gift is healing all maladies whether or not they are throat related.
“Most often as part of the Mass, all parishioners desiring a blessing of their throats typically proceed to the front of the church where the priest with the two blessed candles, tied with a red ribbon, holds them in the form of an X. He touches the candles to each side of the person’s neck and says: “Through the intercession of St. Blaise, bishop and martyr, may God deliver you free from every disease of the throat, and from every other disease. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Source
Unfortunately, St. Blaise’s gift does not include curing the diseases of gullibility, dementia or mind control.
TO BE CONTINUED……..
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Roman Catholicism is overflowing with ‘mysteries.’ So much so, the Holy Spirit prophesied this significant fact when describing the Great Whore, the Mother Church of all harlot churches. He noted the name ‘Mystery Babylon’ written on her forehead.
Take the MYSTERY of the ROSARY, for example.
The rosary is a devotion in honor of the Virgin Mary. It contains 4 Mysteries: THE JOYFUL MYSTERIES; THE LUMINOUS MYSTERIES; THE SORROWFUL MYSTERIES; THE GLORIOUS MYSTERIES.
Within each MYSTERY are 5 mysterious events which are to be remembered and meditated upon. For example, within the GLORIOUS MYSTERIES is the unbiblical Assumption of Mary, whereby she is assumed by the Catholic Church to have been raptured to Heaven without having physically died. This fiction was necessary to lend credence to the fiction that Mary was born sinless and lived a sinless life. This despite the Douay-Rheims Bible stating, “For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.”
Furthermore, Mary sinned big time when she abandoned the young boy Jesus at Jerusalem during Passover. A full day had passed before Mary noticed Him missing. What was she thinking? It wasn’t as if Jesus was just another ordinary Hebrew boy. The angel Gabriel had appeared to her announcing a miraculous virgin pregnancy which would culminate in the birth of the Messiah. The Mother of God actually ‘forgot’ the Son of God! I doubt the born-again Catholics, whom agedman and Servant so trust and admire, would commit such an atrocious sin.
A further fiction foisted upon the Catholic faithful ln the GLORIOUS MYSTERIES is the coronation of Mary in Heaven. Catholic doctrine claims this is revealed in Rev. 12:1, for Mary is the alleged woman in Heaven who was signified. What the Catholic theologians fail to address, however, is the fact that it is John to whom Jesus gave the care of His mother, Mary (John 19:26-27). And it is John who saw the vision of the woman in Heaven. If she was Mary he would have recognized her immediately. Instead, he simply describes her as a ‘woman,’ because it was not Mary.
Following the how-to instructions in praying the rosary is itself a mystery. Did you know that depending on the day of the week, only one of the four mysteries is to be recited? How the specific day was chosen for each Mystery to pray is never explained. Is the prayer rejected if prayed on the wrong day? Also, the beads are used as a kind of abacus to ensure the prayer warrior prays the necessary number of prayers. Apparently, Mary keeps track of the numbers. It’s not nice to diss Mother Mary. Below is a diagram of how-to pray the rosary which further mystifies.
It doesn’t take a born-again Catholic ratified by agedman and Servant to take note that Mary is the preferred one petitioned; God the Father and Jesus take a humiliating back seat to the Queen of Heaven.
There are many more mysteries in this Babylon Mystery religion which, Lord willing, will be examined in the near future.
PS Praying the rosary MUST begin with the sign of the cross. Lord willing, this mystical sign will be examined as to its prophetic significance in the near future also.
Take the MYSTERY of the ROSARY, for example.
The rosary is a devotion in honor of the Virgin Mary. It contains 4 Mysteries: THE JOYFUL MYSTERIES; THE LUMINOUS MYSTERIES; THE SORROWFUL MYSTERIES; THE GLORIOUS MYSTERIES.
Within each MYSTERY are 5 mysterious events which are to be remembered and meditated upon. For example, within the GLORIOUS MYSTERIES is the unbiblical Assumption of Mary, whereby she is assumed by the Catholic Church to have been raptured to Heaven without having physically died. This fiction was necessary to lend credence to the fiction that Mary was born sinless and lived a sinless life. This despite the Douay-Rheims Bible stating, “For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.”
Furthermore, Mary sinned big time when she abandoned the young boy Jesus at Jerusalem during Passover. A full day had passed before Mary noticed Him missing. What was she thinking? It wasn’t as if Jesus was just another ordinary Hebrew boy. The angel Gabriel had appeared to her announcing a miraculous virgin pregnancy which would culminate in the birth of the Messiah. The Mother of God actually ‘forgot’ the Son of God! I doubt the born-again Catholics, whom agedman and Servant so trust and admire, would commit such an atrocious sin.
A further fiction foisted upon the Catholic faithful ln the GLORIOUS MYSTERIES is the coronation of Mary in Heaven. Catholic doctrine claims this is revealed in Rev. 12:1, for Mary is the alleged woman in Heaven who was signified. What the Catholic theologians fail to address, however, is the fact that it is John to whom Jesus gave the care of His mother, Mary (John 19:26-27). And it is John who saw the vision of the woman in Heaven. If she was Mary he would have recognized her immediately. Instead, he simply describes her as a ‘woman,’ because it was not Mary.
Following the how-to instructions in praying the rosary is itself a mystery. Did you know that depending on the day of the week, only one of the four mysteries is to be recited? How the specific day was chosen for each Mystery to pray is never explained. Is the prayer rejected if prayed on the wrong day? Also, the beads are used as a kind of abacus to ensure the prayer warrior prays the necessary number of prayers. Apparently, Mary keeps track of the numbers. It’s not nice to diss Mother Mary. Below is a diagram of how-to pray the rosary which further mystifies.
It doesn’t take a born-again Catholic ratified by agedman and Servant to take note that Mary is the preferred one petitioned; God the Father and Jesus take a humiliating back seat to the Queen of Heaven.
There are many more mysteries in this Babylon Mystery religion which, Lord willing, will be examined in the near future.
PS Praying the rosary MUST begin with the sign of the cross. Lord willing, this mystical sign will be examined as to its prophetic significance in the near future also.
So you would see NO Catholics can ever get saved then?Roman Catholicism is overflowing with ‘mysteries.’ So much so, the Holy Spirit prophesied this significant fact when describing the Great Whore, the Mother Church of all harlot churches. He noted the name ‘Mystery Babylon’ written on her forehead.
Take the MYSTERY of the ROSARY, for example.
The rosary is a devotion in honor of the Virgin Mary. It contains 4 Mysteries: THE JOYFUL MYSTERIES; THE LUMINOUS MYSTERIES; THE SORROWFUL MYSTERIES; THE GLORIOUS MYSTERIES.
Within each MYSTERY are 5 mysterious events which are to be remembered and meditated upon. For example, within the GLORIOUS MYSTERIES is the unbiblical Assumption of Mary, whereby she is assumed by the Catholic Church to have been raptured to Heaven without having physically died. This fiction was necessary to lend credence to the fiction that Mary was born sinless and lived a sinless life. This despite the Douay-Rheims Bible stating, “For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.”
Furthermore, Mary sinned big time when she abandoned the young boy Jesus at Jerusalem during Passover. A full day had passed before Mary noticed Him missing. What was she thinking? It wasn’t as if Jesus was just another ordinary Hebrew boy. The angel Gabriel had appeared to her announcing a miraculous virgin pregnancy which would culminate in the birth of the Messiah. The Mother of God actually ‘forgot’ the Son of God! I doubt the born-again Catholics, whom agedman and Servant so trust and admire, would commit such an atrocious sin.
A further fiction foisted upon the Catholic faithful ln the GLORIOUS MYSTERIES is the coronation of Mary in Heaven. Catholic doctrine claims this is revealed in Rev. 12:1, for Mary is the alleged woman in Heaven who was signified. What the Catholic theologians fail to address, however, is the fact that it is John to whom Jesus gave the care of His mother, Mary (John 19:26-27). And it is John who saw the vision of the woman in Heaven. If she was Mary he would have recognized her immediately. Instead, he simply describes her as a ‘woman,’ because it was not Mary.
Following the how-to instructions in praying the rosary is itself a mystery. Did you know that depending on the day of the week, only one of the four mysteries is to be recited? How the specific day was chosen for each Mystery to pray is never explained. Is the prayer rejected if prayed on the wrong day? Also, the beads are used as a kind of abacus to ensure the prayer warrior prays the necessary number of prayers. Apparently, Mary keeps track of the numbers. It’s not nice to diss Mother Mary. Below is a diagram of how-to pray the rosary which further mystifies.
It doesn’t take a born-again Catholic ratified by agedman and Servant to take note that Mary is the preferred one petitioned; God the Father and Jesus take a humiliating back seat to the Queen of Heaven.
There are many more mysteries in this Babylon Mystery religion which, Lord willing, will be examined in the near future.
PS Praying the rosary MUST begin with the sign of the cross. Lord willing, this mystical sign will be examined as to its prophetic significance in the near future also.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
I began this series of essays proving, by the authority of Scripture, the Pope of Rome is no Christian. Furthermore, if the head of the Roman Catholic Church is no Christian, the Church he leads is not Christian. And likewise, it is impossible his body of disciples are Christians. For the servant is not greater than his lord (John 13:16). Can two walk together, unless they are agreed? (Amos 3:3). Those Elect in Catholicism will come out of anti-Christianity in obedience to the many commands of Scripture to do so (which I cited previously).
Agedman and Servant are of a different mind and opinion. Although, they agree there are ‘problems’ with the teachings of Catholicism, the ‘problems’ are not sufficient to warrant its ‘born-again’ Church members to separate from Anti-Christianity in obedience to God’s Word. According to agedman and Servant, it is possible to remain in disobedience to Christ by clinging to anti-Christianity, while at the same time remaining faithful to their Good Shepard, Christ. It matters not that Christ declared, My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they [obediently] follow me.
In this one Scripture we have an infallible description of Christ’s true sheep.
But I digress. Let us turn our attention back to a discussion of the Rosary, for its origin is one of mystery and absurdity.
The website Catholic Answers explains: “…..when the Albigensian heresy was devastating the country of Toulouse, St. Dominic earnestly besought the help of Our Lady and was instructed by her, ‘so tradition asserts’, to preach the Rosary among the people as an antidote to heresy and sin.”
‘Saint’ Dominic, the priest whose name is given to the religious order of Dominican Friars, apparently had a face-to-face tête-à-tête with the Blessed Virgin. Mary had a solution for ending the heresy preached by their arch-enemies, the ‘heretical’ Albigenses: Pray the Rosary, which she had apparently designed and manufactured in the 3rd Heaven as a divine tool whose efficacy was guaranteed.
The ’Heretics’ were Anti-Catholicism, not Anti-Christian
In the early Middle Ages there were vast numbers of true Christians who refused to partake of the anti-Christian ceremonies, idolatry and anti-biblical beliefs of the Catholic Church. They were called by various names: ‘Albigenses,’ to indicate their prominence in and near the town of Albi, France; or ‘Cathars,’ which was a derivative of the Greek noun, meaning ‘Pure Ones,’ i.e. ‘Puritans.’
These true Christians were determined to separate from the Roman Catholic Church, unlike the ‘born-again’ Catholics promoted by agedman and Servant.
When comparing the teachings of the Catholic hierarchy, along with their decadent lifestyle, these so-called ‘heretics’ made the following observations and judgments, which hold true to this day.
[N. B. The material used as the basis of this essay has been originally compiled by the arch enemy of the so-called ‘heretics’, the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, it is a common method of deception to exaggerate or completely misrepresent the beliefs of their enemies, in order to make them appear heretics of the highest order, blasphemers of both Christ and His Catholic Church. These ancient Latin documents have been translated by Wakefield & Evans in their superb publication, Heresies of the High Middle Ages. These same ‘heretics’ consistently denied the Roman Catholic Church was a bona fide Christian Church. Instead, they identified the Roman Catholic Church, her Pope and clergy, as the fulfillment of prophetic Scripture which warns of the Harlot Church and Beast Antichrist.]
· The Italian Cathars, circa 1176-90: “They say that the [sign of the] Cross is the sign of the Beast of which one reads in the Apocalypse [Rev. 13:16-17]; and is an abomination in the holy place [Matthew 24:15]. They assert that the Blessed Sylvester the Antichrist of whom one reads in the Epistle, ‘The son of perdition’ [2 Thess. 2:3]; ‘who is lifted up above all that is called God’ [2 Thess. 2:4]. From that day, they say, the Church was lost” (pp. 172-3).
· The Albigenses of Southern France, circa 1213: “They called the Roman Church a ‘den of thieves’ [Luke 19:46] and that harlot of whom we read in Apocalypse” [Rev. 17] (p. 238).
The Dominican Inquisitor Moneta wrote extensively on the ‘heresies’ believed by the Cathars in his classic, Summa Against Cathars, circa 1241-44:
“The heretic makes an objection [against the claim of his antagonist that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church of God], saying: ‘As we find in Matthew 7:7-18, a tree is known by its fruits. The fruit of the Roman Church is evil; therefore, the Roman Church is evil……’
“Also, the heretic objects, saying: ‘Since the fruit of the Roman faith is evil, its faith is evil…..’
“The heretic in opposition objects [to the Catholic Church]: ‘Ten parts or more of the Roman Church are evil [i.e. speaking of the members of its body]; therefore it ought to be called the church of the devil, rather than of God…..’
“Also, [the heretic says]: The faith of the Roman Church is dead; hence, so also is the Roman Church. For from dead faith there is no life. But if the Roman Church is dead, while the Church of God is life, it is not the Church of God……
“Again, the heretic seeks to prove the Roman Church is not the Church of God because of its many usages [i.e. religious ceremonies and superstitions] which are not recorded in the Gospel or any other book of the New Testament, nor is there proof it was practiced in the primitive Church…..
“Again, to defame the Church the heretic quotes Matthew 23:4; such they say are the priests of the Roman Church….
“They also cite, against the Church, the words of the Lord to the scribes and Pharisees, Matthew 23:13. Now they say we are like them because we do not enter the kingdom of heaven, that is, we do not enter the Church of God through faith [N.B. The Cathars taught justification by faith], nor do we allow those who wish to enter to do so…..[Matthew 23:13].
“They also base an objection on the Lord’s words to the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:29-33…. The heretics say that the priests of the Roman Church, whom they call modern Pharisees, fired by the same wrath, plot the same kind of murders. They say that the Jewish Pharisees, whom they call the fathers of our priests, killed the Apostles, persecuted the primitive church of the saints; our priests build and adorn the sepulchers of the slain and construct altars over them. But fired by the same wrath, they fill up the measure of the Pharisees by murders and by persecuting the church of the heretics……
“Also, the heretic says the Roman Church talks about good but does it not. If it does any good thing, its purpose is that the eyes of men may behold it…..It says long prayers, so as to lay hold of the goods of widows, and that it may collect tithes and the first fruits of oil and beasts from a prince. Of all these things Christ harshly accused the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23.
“Also, the heretic says, ‘If the head be good, how astonishing that it has such evil members…..’
“Also, the heretics says, ‘The Church should suffer persecution in this world [John 15:19-20], not practice it against others. But the Roman Church persecutes others, while itself remaining free from persecution……’
“Also, the heretic objects, ‘The Church of Christ, threatened by persecution, was often hungry and thirsty, was naked and buffeted, and made weak; it worked with its hands, not seeking the wealth of others, gladly giving of its own to Christ’s poor, so there was no one in want in their midst. It was cursed, yet it blessed; hence, 1 Corinthians 4:11. The Roman Church is not in this condition. For the Roman Church is rich in great possessions, in luxuries. It is garbed in purple and linen, and it has splendid feasts every day, It is untroubled and is established in this world, works not with its hands; but being itself wanton and idle, devours the labors of others. It is blessed by others and it curses…..’
Also, they say, ‘The Church of Christ was scorned and blasphemed by the world; on the other hand, the world honors the Roman Church…..’
NEXT: Moneta’s Summa Against the Cathars continued.
Agedman and Servant are of a different mind and opinion. Although, they agree there are ‘problems’ with the teachings of Catholicism, the ‘problems’ are not sufficient to warrant its ‘born-again’ Church members to separate from Anti-Christianity in obedience to God’s Word. According to agedman and Servant, it is possible to remain in disobedience to Christ by clinging to anti-Christianity, while at the same time remaining faithful to their Good Shepard, Christ. It matters not that Christ declared, My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they [obediently] follow me.
In this one Scripture we have an infallible description of Christ’s true sheep.
But I digress. Let us turn our attention back to a discussion of the Rosary, for its origin is one of mystery and absurdity.
The website Catholic Answers explains: “…..when the Albigensian heresy was devastating the country of Toulouse, St. Dominic earnestly besought the help of Our Lady and was instructed by her, ‘so tradition asserts’, to preach the Rosary among the people as an antidote to heresy and sin.”
‘Saint’ Dominic, the priest whose name is given to the religious order of Dominican Friars, apparently had a face-to-face tête-à-tête with the Blessed Virgin. Mary had a solution for ending the heresy preached by their arch-enemies, the ‘heretical’ Albigenses: Pray the Rosary, which she had apparently designed and manufactured in the 3rd Heaven as a divine tool whose efficacy was guaranteed.
The ’Heretics’ were Anti-Catholicism, not Anti-Christian
In the early Middle Ages there were vast numbers of true Christians who refused to partake of the anti-Christian ceremonies, idolatry and anti-biblical beliefs of the Catholic Church. They were called by various names: ‘Albigenses,’ to indicate their prominence in and near the town of Albi, France; or ‘Cathars,’ which was a derivative of the Greek noun, meaning ‘Pure Ones,’ i.e. ‘Puritans.’
These true Christians were determined to separate from the Roman Catholic Church, unlike the ‘born-again’ Catholics promoted by agedman and Servant.
When comparing the teachings of the Catholic hierarchy, along with their decadent lifestyle, these so-called ‘heretics’ made the following observations and judgments, which hold true to this day.
[N. B. The material used as the basis of this essay has been originally compiled by the arch enemy of the so-called ‘heretics’, the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, it is a common method of deception to exaggerate or completely misrepresent the beliefs of their enemies, in order to make them appear heretics of the highest order, blasphemers of both Christ and His Catholic Church. These ancient Latin documents have been translated by Wakefield & Evans in their superb publication, Heresies of the High Middle Ages. These same ‘heretics’ consistently denied the Roman Catholic Church was a bona fide Christian Church. Instead, they identified the Roman Catholic Church, her Pope and clergy, as the fulfillment of prophetic Scripture which warns of the Harlot Church and Beast Antichrist.]
· The Italian Cathars, circa 1176-90: “They say that the [sign of the] Cross is the sign of the Beast of which one reads in the Apocalypse [Rev. 13:16-17]; and is an abomination in the holy place [Matthew 24:15]. They assert that the Blessed Sylvester the Antichrist of whom one reads in the Epistle, ‘The son of perdition’ [2 Thess. 2:3]; ‘who is lifted up above all that is called God’ [2 Thess. 2:4]. From that day, they say, the Church was lost” (pp. 172-3).
· The Albigenses of Southern France, circa 1213: “They called the Roman Church a ‘den of thieves’ [Luke 19:46] and that harlot of whom we read in Apocalypse” [Rev. 17] (p. 238).
The Dominican Inquisitor Moneta wrote extensively on the ‘heresies’ believed by the Cathars in his classic, Summa Against Cathars, circa 1241-44:
“The heretic makes an objection [against the claim of his antagonist that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church of God], saying: ‘As we find in Matthew 7:7-18, a tree is known by its fruits. The fruit of the Roman Church is evil; therefore, the Roman Church is evil……’
“Also, the heretic objects, saying: ‘Since the fruit of the Roman faith is evil, its faith is evil…..’
“The heretic in opposition objects [to the Catholic Church]: ‘Ten parts or more of the Roman Church are evil [i.e. speaking of the members of its body]; therefore it ought to be called the church of the devil, rather than of God…..’
“Also, [the heretic says]: The faith of the Roman Church is dead; hence, so also is the Roman Church. For from dead faith there is no life. But if the Roman Church is dead, while the Church of God is life, it is not the Church of God……
“Again, the heretic seeks to prove the Roman Church is not the Church of God because of its many usages [i.e. religious ceremonies and superstitions] which are not recorded in the Gospel or any other book of the New Testament, nor is there proof it was practiced in the primitive Church…..
“Again, to defame the Church the heretic quotes Matthew 23:4; such they say are the priests of the Roman Church….
“They also cite, against the Church, the words of the Lord to the scribes and Pharisees, Matthew 23:13. Now they say we are like them because we do not enter the kingdom of heaven, that is, we do not enter the Church of God through faith [N.B. The Cathars taught justification by faith], nor do we allow those who wish to enter to do so…..[Matthew 23:13].
“They also base an objection on the Lord’s words to the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:29-33…. The heretics say that the priests of the Roman Church, whom they call modern Pharisees, fired by the same wrath, plot the same kind of murders. They say that the Jewish Pharisees, whom they call the fathers of our priests, killed the Apostles, persecuted the primitive church of the saints; our priests build and adorn the sepulchers of the slain and construct altars over them. But fired by the same wrath, they fill up the measure of the Pharisees by murders and by persecuting the church of the heretics……
“Also, the heretic says the Roman Church talks about good but does it not. If it does any good thing, its purpose is that the eyes of men may behold it…..It says long prayers, so as to lay hold of the goods of widows, and that it may collect tithes and the first fruits of oil and beasts from a prince. Of all these things Christ harshly accused the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23.
“Also, the heretic says, ‘If the head be good, how astonishing that it has such evil members…..’
“Also, the heretics says, ‘The Church should suffer persecution in this world [John 15:19-20], not practice it against others. But the Roman Church persecutes others, while itself remaining free from persecution……’
“Also, the heretic objects, ‘The Church of Christ, threatened by persecution, was often hungry and thirsty, was naked and buffeted, and made weak; it worked with its hands, not seeking the wealth of others, gladly giving of its own to Christ’s poor, so there was no one in want in their midst. It was cursed, yet it blessed; hence, 1 Corinthians 4:11. The Roman Church is not in this condition. For the Roman Church is rich in great possessions, in luxuries. It is garbed in purple and linen, and it has splendid feasts every day, It is untroubled and is established in this world, works not with its hands; but being itself wanton and idle, devours the labors of others. It is blessed by others and it curses…..’
Also, they say, ‘The Church of Christ was scorned and blasphemed by the world; on the other hand, the world honors the Roman Church…..’
NEXT: Moneta’s Summa Against the Cathars continued.
Neither one of us are stating that a saved catholic should remain in Rome, but we do NOT see them staying as negating their salvation if really saved!
I agree with Him that Rome teaches and holds to heresy, but will not go as far as to state that no Catholic can ever get saved despite the heretical doctrines and practices!
Saying that, a saved Catholic should depart to go to a church holding to sound doctrines!
Who decides what is or is not heresy? Rome? Athens? London? Geneva? Kirkwood? Nashville?
Who decides whether a Catholic can be saved? Last I checked I thought God is the judge. Do we not teach that anymore?
Also, there are lots of good arguments against Catholicism. The stuff posted above is not even close and doesn't help the cause. It's Jack Chick-type stuff.
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Protestant
Well-Known Member
Sadly, Campion has finally immerged from hiding only to reveal his shameful ignorance. His inability to refute the many historical Latin manuscripts which numerous recognized, highly reputed secular scholars have themselves translated has resulted in the typical default insult made by religious fanatical Catholics: ‘Baptist Jack Chick is a kook, and so are you.’
I cite Wakefield & Evans’ publication because it is exceptional due to its scope.
Other works which I recommend are:
The Antifraternal Tradition in Medieval Literature by Szittya
The Birth of Popular Heresy by Moore
Dissent & Reform in the Early Middle Ages by Russell
Medieval Heresy by Lambert
Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe edited by Peters
Heresy in the Later Middle Ages by Leff
This is not to mention the almost innumerable works by scholars concerning the Lollards and their alleged ‘heresies.’
There are three classic Protestant works which detail the fraudulent narratives propagated by the Roman Church by which they falsely accused the ancient Vallenses [Waldenses] and Albigenses of heresy:
The History of the Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses by George Stanley Faber
The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont and of the Albigenses by Peter Allix
Horae Apocalypticae by E. B. Elliott (5th Edition, volume 2).
Truly, after taking the time and effort to study the Middle Ages, always keeping Scripture foremost in one’s mind, it becomes quite apparent the book of Revelation has been playing out historically in real time. The true identities of Mystery Babylon and her Antichrist are no longer a ‘mystery.’ This is why the ancient Christians, Protestant Reformers, Puritans and Calvinists ALL recognized the same enemy depicted in the prophetic Scriptures. Many were put to the death because of their prophetic beliefs which they broadcast from the rooftops. Kooks? I think not.
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