A carryover thread from 'The Children whom God hath given me .'

[DHK]

You are far from the truth of the Word of God which says:"And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men, for not everyone has faith."

You need to drop your anti-biblical stance and humbly accept the Word of God.

That rightly can be said of DHK.

This is a post I really don't have to answer. It is only opinion which you give, and all can see that. Your condemnation and condescension is well noted.
And BTW, you are not infallible. There are a good many people on this board that consider you to hold Biblical error. So state your opinion and leave it at that. Leave the ungodly comments and the attack mode out of your posts.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is a post I really don't have to answer. It is only opinion which you give, and all can see that. Your condemnation and condescension is well noted.
And BTW, you are not infallible. There are a good many people on this board that consider you to hold Biblical error. So state your opinion and leave it at that. Leave the ungodly comments and the attack mode out of your posts.

I have not seen anyone other than you or Van object to anything Rippon posted...:wavey::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Salvation is by faith. You don't like to think much about faith.
Here is an example. You might want to read more of the conversation than just this one post:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2239087&postcount=20

You don't deal with error. You repeat your own falsehood, over and over again.

This link showed nothing. It did not give an example or two ;like I asked you to produce.....so until you post evidence the charge of a lying false witness stands.....here was your foul claim;

Of course it is. Sola fide. It is by faith as well--something you seem to deny quite often.

Show by direct quote where I deny this at all...much less quite often:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[DHK]

This link showed nothing. It did not give an example or two ;like I asked you to produce.....so until you post evidence the charge of a lying false witness stands.....here was your foul claim;


Show by direct quote where I deny this at all...much less quite often:laugh::laugh::laugh:

It is nothing to laugh at Icon. You are in error. You disregard the doctrine of sola fide many times. I tell you this and rarely do you acknowledge it, but simply give a passive acknowledgment by your silence. So I accept that you know that you are in the wrong by your silence when I tell you that you "throw sola fide out the window."

Check out the conversation here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2238875&postcount=6

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2238880&postcount=7

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2238911&postcount=9


Let's go through this again.
First, Icon says that a man since the Fall is dead, depraved, has no ability on his own to turn to Christ; it is impossible for him to put his faith in Christ for the only decision he can make is the wrong decision. He is unable to choose good for he is depraved. This is correct? Right?

Yet Spurgeon says:
They cannot endure heresy, and yet sad is the fact, that believing what they do, and knowing so much, they have not believed the Son of God. They believe the doctrine of election, but they have not the faith of God's elect: they swear by final perseverance, but persevere in unbelief. They confess all the five points of Calvinism, but they have not come to the one most needful point of looking unto Jesus, that they may be saved. They accept in creed the truths that are assuredly believed among us, but they have not received that faithful saying, worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; at any rate, they have not received it personally and practically for their souls' salvation.
--And that is quite the opposite of your belief.
As I posted in that post:

"Notice he loved souls enough to even warn those in the church who hold correct doctrine to make sure Christ was the true object of faith...even if they professed to hold the 5 pts."

And then:

If you do not know, you ought to know; if you have not learned the gospel message, you might have learned it, for there are, some of us whose language it is not difficult for even the most illiterate to understand, and who would, if we caught ourselves using a hard word, retract it, and put it into little syllables, so that not even a child's intellect need be perplexed by our language. Salvation's way is plain in the book; those words, "Believe and live," are in this Christian England almost as legible and as universally to be seen as though they were printed on the sky. That trust in the Lord Jesus saves the soul is well-known news. But, if you still say you have not known all this, then I reply, "Dear sir, do try to know it. Go to the Scriptures, study them, see what is there. Hear, also, the gospel, for it is written, "Incline your ear to come unto me; hear, and your soul shall live." Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." For your soul's sake I charge you, be no longer ignorant of that which you must know, or else must perish.

As I pointed out to you then:
The unsaved can hear, understand and believe the gospel, as Spurgeon constantly urges them to do.
--He is not so totally depraved that he cannot believe, cannot understand, cannot chose right, etc. Spurgeon appeals to the intellect of the unconverted.

Notice, in post #7, when I point out to you:
"The unsaved can hear, understand and believe the gospel, as Spurgeon constantly urges them to do."
Your reply is:
yes.....and everyone of those given will be enabled to do just that good link...DHK
--So, you are simply reading into what Spurgeon preached. He said nothing of the sort. He said for them to read, to understand. He didn't say that anyone (including God or the Holy Spirit) would cause them to understand. In fact he rebuked them saying there was no excuse for we were not in the middle of Africa where Bibles are scarce. There was no excuse.

 

[Rippon]

The Word of God says:"And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men, for not everyone has faith." (2 Thess.3:2)

DHK says : "Every man has faith."

There is a clear antithesis here between the Word of God and the word of a man.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

There are some Calvinists on this board that act as if they have never heard of them.

Nonsense....we believe the 5 solas of the reformation unlike you.:thumbsup:

Some consider sola fide, or "faith" as a work. Therefore in their scheme of salvation faith isn't considered.

You have a wrong view of faith so you do not understand any of the cals who have a biblical understanding....Your understanding is natural and fleshly...not of the Spirit as I will show shortly when I get to that post.

Some, such as Icon, believe that because "salvation is all of God,"

Icon is at the keyboard now to answer your lie directly.:laugh:

that faith has not role.

I have posted 10000 times...show one where I say that faith is not a part of salvation. You cannot because you are lying...there is no other way to say it.

You say I say it....I am right here saying I never posted anything like that and I would know because I know what I believe....you do not.

No one is interested in your made up fantasy strawmen unless they find entertainment value in your unsanctified imagination.:thumbsup:

If it is "all of God" faith somehow gets a pass.

God is the author and finisher of our faith.....I have posted that several times!
Let me explain it to you...that means he who begun a good work in us will perform it until the day of Christ.

At regeneration God grants repentance and faith....a saving belief as He enables us to believe by the Spirit doing that supernatural heart transplant for every real Christian.....EZK 36:25-27 is for Christians, the new Covenant is for Christians, but facts which you deny.

It is. What is even more sad is that men like Al Moehler are leaders in this movement in order to appeal to the "Millennials."

You print out one hearsay article by a deluded anti cal fanatic and you look to disparage God's servant. This is disgraceful.

No, primarily to those who I just read on this board.
IMO, they put far too much emphasis on God's Sovereignty and the doctrine of Predestination than the rest of the doctrines of the Bible. They are unbalanced.

You give lip service to a watered down form of these truths. You do not delight in these truths...in fact you despise them.

No praise, only responsibility. If the gift of salvation is offered to man, it is his responsibility to accept it and not reject it, as the Jews did (John 1:11).

If he plants corn he knows that corn will come up. But not all corn will come up. Some will not germinate. His foreknowledge is not adequate. Some will be withered; some stunted; some attacked by insects, etc. He cannot foreknow what will happen in his crop.

What are you even talking about here???? Who is the "he"?

The Lord has planted "men". Some will receive him and some will not.

I believe I responded to this already;

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

"Foreknew" means to know ahead of time as in omniscience.

It is not the same...this shows your defective ideas.

Those that he knew before the world was ever created would get saved,

This is the false theology of carnal thought. This is close to a great blasphemy.
Salvation is of God. He is not just a spectator learning who will get saved.
He determines who gets saved.

those he "predestined". Why? He already knew they would get saved.

He already knows the end from the beginning.

He knew they would respond with "yes" to receiving Christ.

Wrong...no one by themselves believes.

Therefore they were predestined.

Wrong God has already determined who will be predestined.

And those were called. Why? They were called into His service to do his will to glorify Him. He also had justified the same. They will also be glorified.

This is backwards and fleshly.

Note: everything here is about the believer; nothing is said about the unbeliever, about reprobation.

Guess what...if they are not saved they are already lost:thumbsup:

That is not true. It is adequately demonstrated in the Book of Job where God gives permission to Satan to tempt Job. God is still sovereign, but within the limits of his sovereignty there is some amount of freedom given to Satan to test Job any way he wishes. There is also freedom given to Job to respond to those temptations any way he wished. He is not bound by the decrees of God.
God, being God, is omniscient. He simply knows the outcome. Knowing the outcome does not determine the outcome.

You do not understand bible 101.....


I will answer more later on...just spent 6 hours speaking with a Turkish muslim...he just left with a bible in hand......meanwhile I see you do not understand the Spurgeon quote I gave you as you attempted to misuse it again...lol...live people face to face take priority over the bb....I will get some sleep and answer more later.

 

[SovereignGrace]

just spent 6 hours speaking with a Turkish muslim...he just left with a bible in hand.......

Bless the Lord!

 

[DHK]

I will answer more later on...just spent 6 hours speaking with a Turkish muslim...he just left with a bible in hand......meanwhile I see you do not understand the Spurgeon quote I gave you as you attempted to misuse it again...lol...live people face to face take priority over the bb....I will get some sleep and answer more later.

I commend you. I would do and have done the same thing (to other Muslims).
The way I see it, the Muslim has a chance to read and to be saved.
The way that I understand the Calvinist to see it is:

Relying on your interpretation of 1Cor.2:14, since he is a natural man that cannot understand spiritual things there is no possible way that he can understand any part of that Bible, and therefore he cannot be saved. We have an entire thread devoted to that topic. It seemed that every Calvinist that posted was in agreement that the unsaved could not understand the Scriptures because he was spiritually blind.
I don't believe that is the meaning of that verse.
I have seen others come to Christ by reading a Bible, a tract, etc. without the intervention of another person's explanation.

 

[Iconoclast]

I commend you. I would do and have done the same thing (to other Muslims).
The way I see it, the Muslim has a chance to read and to be saved.
The way that I understand the Calvinist to see it is:

Relying on your interpretation of 1Cor.2:14, since he is a natural man that cannot understand spiritual things there is no possible way that he can understand any part of that Bible, and therefore he cannot be saved. We have an entire thread devoted to that topic. It seemed that every Calvinist that posted was in agreement that the unsaved could not understand the Scriptures because he was spiritually blind.
I don't believe that is the meaning of that verse.
I have seen others come to Christ by reading a Bible, a tract, etc. without the intervention of another person's explanation.

Of course he cannot understand the things of God in his natural state.
He needs the Spirit to grant him repentance and faith and a new heart.

That is between him and God. I presented the saving work of Jesus as the God man who took upon himself the former of a servant as per phil2/heb2.....

After a few hours of establishing the bible as the word of God...and all men having died in Adam....I was then able to present the Lord Jesus as having died for sinners, and how The Father had given a multitude of sinners to Jesus who He is seeking and saving.

I explained that everyone given to the Son would be saved ....none will be lost.

 

[DHK]

Of course he cannot understand the things of God in his natural state.
He needs the Spirit to grant him repentance and faith and a new heart.

That is between him and God. I presented the saving work of Jesus as the God man who took upon himself the former of a servant as per phil2/heb2.....

After a few hours of establishing the bible as the word of God...and all men having died in Adam....I was then able to present the Lord Jesus as having died for sinners, and how The Father had given a multitude of sinners to Jesus who He is seeking and saving.

I explained that everyone given to the Son would be saved ....none will be lost.

That's great.
I don't want to be confrontational here. I just want to understand from a Calvinist viewpoint.
You have presented the gospel to him.

But as you just said in this post:
"Of course he cannot understand the things of God in his natural state."

So what good will the Bible do if he can't understand it "in his natural state"?

It is my opinion that he can understand it, and that "faith comes by hearing (reading), and hearing by the Word of God.
Whether the means is hearing or reading he is still receiving the Word, and that is the vehicle of faith, the faith that he needs to trust Christ--the message that you gave him.

 

[Iconoclast]

That's great.
I don't want to be confrontational here. I just want to understand from a Calvinist viewpoint.
You have presented the gospel to him.

But as you just said in this post:
"Of course he cannot understand the things of God in his natural state."

So what good will the Bible do if he can't understand it "in his natural state"?

It is my opinion that he can understand it, and that "faith comes by hearing (reading), and hearing by the Word of God.
Whether the means is hearing or reading he is still receiving the Word, and that is the vehicle of faith, the faith that he needs to trust Christ--the message that you gave him.

Any person understands the words spoken...but in a natural condition they all with one consent begin to make excuses why they do not need to believe the message.

When we present truth to the dry bones we are speaking with....we are to proclaim truth,trusting the Spirit to quicken the Scriptures to the previously dead sinner and allow the truth to be welcomed by that sinner.When the Spirit draws him effectually he welcomes the word that he used to reject. Saving repentance and faith is given at regeneration as that sinner goes from death to life by the supernatural work of God.

Once God saves the sinner...he believes, he exercises that God given faith he owns it as his own

 

[DHK]

Any person understands the words spoken...but in a natural condition they all with one consent begin to make excuses why they do not need to believe the message.

Right. But they do understand, and therefore have no excuse not to believe.
There were ten lepers. All were healed. Only one came back and was thankful. He was the one that believed.

When we present truth to the dry bones we are speaking with....we are to proclaim truth,trusting the Spirit to quicken the Scriptures to the previously dead sinner and allow the truth to be welcomed by that sinner.When the Spirit draws him effectually he welcomes the word that he used to reject. Saving repentance and faith is given at regeneration as that sinner goes from death to life by the supernatural work of God.

Once God saves the sinner...he believes, he exercises that God given faith he owns it as his own

According to Rom.10:17 it is the Word that brings faith, and faith that brings salvation (Acts 16:31).
According to basic theology regeneration and salvation take place at the same time (simultaneously).
1Pet.1:23 teaches that one is born again by the Word of God. Thus the Word is essential in the New Birth process. (In that same passage Peter defines the "Word of God" as "the Gospel which saves."
Thus the gospel and faith must precede regeneration and salvation.
The Holy Spirit is able to convict a person of their sin at any time, but usually works through the Word of God. That is his primary ministry (convicting of sin).

The "dead" sinner is "dead" by virtue of being separated from God. Death is separation. He still has the ability to understand. The Word will give him the faith to believe. That is what he needs. The Holy Spirit working through the Word, convicting of sin will bring this sinner to faith in Christ wherein he will be "reconciled" back to God--no longer separated, but now in a living union with Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Right. But they do understand, and therefore have no excuse not to believe.

Most have a 'knowledge' that God exists. But that is merely an acknowledgement of His existence. They do not and can not worship Him in their fallen state. As Christ said "His worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”[Jn. 4:24]

There were ten lepers. All were healed. Only one came back and was thankful. He was the one that believed.

Can not say one way or the other, seeing even the other 9 were healed. I do not truly know one way or the other if the other nine believed. But you could be right. I need to study that out further.

According to Rom.10:17 it is the Word that brings faith, and faith that brings salvation (Acts 16:31).

Which refutes your earlier notion that Christ will draw all men, seeing even in your own post before, you acknowledged not everyone will hear the gospel. But I digress. Faith comes from hearing, which shows an outside Source is necessary to believe, which refutes your notion that we, when we were fallen, still had faith to believe. What about the deaf? They can not hear the gospel. Faith comes from God, and He issues it via His word through preaching, witnessing, and reading. But He is the Source, the Pioneer and Perfecter of our faith.[Heb. 12:2]

According to basic theology regeneration and salvation take place at the same time (simultaneously).
1Pet.1:23 teaches that one is born again by the Word of God. Thus the Word is essential in the New Birth process. (In that same passage Peter defines the "Word of God" as "the Gospel which saves."

True. And I showed you the native americans had not a bible before John Eliot translated one in the 1600's. Thank you for helping me out here.

Thus the gospel and faith must precede regeneration and salvation.

Regeneration brings faith and repentance and this brings salvation.

The Holy Spirit is able to convict a person of their sin at any time, but usually works through the Word of God. That is his primary ministry (convicting of sin).

Can not disagree with you. The Spirit of God works through the word, the preaching of the gospel.

The "dead" sinner is "dead" by virtue of being separated from God. Death is separation.

Nekros, mon ami, nekros.

He still has the ability to understand.

Uh, no he does not. 1 Cor. 2:14 and Rom. 8:7 state otherwise.

The Word will give him the faith to believe. That is what he needs.

If man possesses faith as you previously stated, then why does the Spirit, through the word, give him the faith needed to believe? Dead people have dead faith, seeing they are devoid of good works.

The Holy Spirit working through the Word, convicting of sin will bring this sinner to faith in Christ wherein he will be "reconciled" back to God--no longer separated, but now in a living union with Christ.

Yes. God works through His word. Romans 10:14 states How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

It takes God the quicken the sinner, in this quickening, faith and repentance are given to be exercised. This is all done via His word.

 

[Iconoclast]

Right. But they do understand, and therefore have no excuse not to believe.
There were ten lepers. All were healed. Only one came back and was thankful. He was the one that believed.

According to Rom.10:17 it is the Word that brings faith, and faith that brings salvation (Acts 16:31).
According to basic theology regeneration and salvation take place at the same time (simultaneously).
1Pet.1:23 teaches that one is born again by the Word of God. Thus the Word is essential in the New Birth process. (In that same passage Peter defines the "Word of God" as "the Gospel which saves."
Thus the gospel and faith must precede regeneration and salvation.
The Holy Spirit is able to convict a person of their sin at any time, but usually works through the Word of God. That is his primary ministry (convicting of sin).

The "dead" sinner is "dead" by virtue of being separated from God. Death is separation. He still has the ability to understand. The Word will give him the faith to believe. That is what he needs. The Holy Spirit working through the Word, convicting of sin will bring this sinner to faith in Christ wherein he will be "reconciled" back to God--no longer separated, but now in a living union with Christ.

With the ten lepers......Jesus asked .....Where are the nine ? All men are responsible to believe ,worship God, and live sinless. They cannot.

Your seriously say that men CAN.Your own testimony and in a post on this thread say men can do it all. You leave out the supernatural work of God which is the biblical model.
Now that I point this out......you will attempt to give lip service to God's activity....but if you read through these last two threads and your own testimony what you describe is a natural process...describing natural man....who you say CAN understand SPIRITUAL THINGS CORRECTLY WITHOUT BEING IN DWELT BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

You never ascribe saving faith to the Spirit of God......you speak of a sinner using human trust or a tentative carnal "faith" which is not the same as the gift of salvation given by God....as scripture describes God GRANTING the gentiles repentance, and Lydia, whose heart the Lord opened........you ignore the biblical language saying no man can come.unless God....and you ignore the positive language of what God does.

The problem as you describe it is you ignore the biblical language used for corpse...nekrous...
In your view man has not died in Adam.....he was slightly wounded and still has full ability.
Because man is a spiritual corpse....he lives and is bound by sin.....consequently he is separated from God.
It is both his natural condition, and his sinful activity that is spoken of. It is not "just" separation.
So to you...man just needs a little information ....he can be smart enough,and perceive spiritual things WITHOUT the HOLY SPIRIT. We believe the SPIRIT is essential to perceive spiritual things.

This fact is beyond dispute as Jesus instructed the Apostles. That they could not understand correctly what they were being instructed until the Comforter would open their understanding.
A careful reading of John 14,15,16.....teaches this again with no dispute possible among Christians.
To ignore truth, to turn front biblical light is to turn to darkness.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK says;

People don't get saved because God decreed it to be so. Salvation is in Christ alone through faith by grace. The simple fact that God knows about it (his omniscience) doesn't change man's decision. Man is not forced into salvation by God's decrees. That is not the way God works.



YOUR SUGGESTION THAT WHAT GOD HAS DECREED will not come to pass ...but rather that man controls the future is not biblical.once again you mention God as a spectator who can see what man might do.

 

[Iconoclast]

Any person understands the words spoken...but in a natural condition they all with one consent begin to make excuses why they do not need to believe the message.

When we present truth to the dry bones we are speaking with....we are to proclaim truth,trusting the Spirit to quicken the Scriptures to the previously dead sinner and allow the truth to be welcomed by that sinner.When the Spirit draws him effectually he welcomes the word that he used to reject. Saving repentance and faith is given at regeneration as that sinner goes from death to life by the supernatural work of God.

Once God saves the sinner...he believes, he exercises that God given faith he owns it as his own

The poster SG.....answered you quite solidly on this point in post 20.

In fact he is pitching a shutout answering solidly post after post.you should learn front his solid posting.

 

[Iconoclast]

[DHK now says;


In order for salvation to be effective it must be efficacious. The gift must be actively received. As it must be received it can also be refused. The simple ability that God has (His omniscience) in knowing which way man will choose, in no way determines the outcome of who the elect are. His "foreknowledge" (knowing ahead of time) or omniscience has nothing to do with it. Being "of the elect" is based on "faith in Christ" or one's decision to trust Him.[/QUOTE]

DESCRIBING ANY ATTRIBUTE OF GOD THIS WAY....the simple ability that God has.....is unbiblical. ...this is very disturbing.You have fallen man on the throne.

You have a wrong view of biblical foreknowledge. ....and do not understand biblical election at all.
You cannot embrace truth with these unbiblical understandings.

 

[Iconoclast]

And this is the fallacy of the Calvinist the unbiblical premise upon which its false foundation lies.
The Calvinist is not God.
How dare he presume that he knows what God has decreed or what the decrees of God are. "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, or who hath been his counselor?"

God has revealed all we need to know of His decree.All the Father gives to the Son will b e saved . To pervert revealed truth and openly deny what is taught is sin.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.[2 Cor. 4:1-6]

Sinners live in the realms of death, being blind, deaf, hard-hearted unto to truth contained in the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ. They are spiritually dead, devoid of spiritual life outside Christ and His gospel. DHK, you say man can resist regeneration, yet regeneration is God shining His Light in the hearts of the spiritually dead and they come to life.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.[Jn 1:1-5]

When the Light shines in a sinner's heart, it is fini, mon ami. They can no more thwart this Light shining in their heart than they can stop the sun from raising in the east every morning.

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God. Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.[Matt. 16:13-17]

No amount of even Jesus' words saved them unless God revealed to those around Christ who Christ truly was. The teachers of the Law(scribes), the chief priests, they heard Christ many times, yet they did not believe. Why? You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”[Jn 8:44-47] They were never part of God's covenant of grace and they would not, neither could they believe.

Unless the Light shines in a sinner's heart, they can not and will not believe. And when this Light shines in their heart, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.[Phpp. 2:13]

 

[SovereignGrace]

So to you...man just needs a little information....

If you only knew how many times I have been confronted with this ideology. People must know they are sinners before God holds them accountable and/or are sinners. I told someone once they should have moved with their children to a cave in a high up mountain or a deserted island and the first one who mentioned Christ, bust their mouth. Keep the children dumb, keep them from the gospel, never let them hear the first thing about Christ, and they are heaven bound.

In their model, preaching the gospel and telling them about Christ in a bible study would be the cruelest thing to do.

Thank you for the kind words, mon ami.