A carryover thread from 'The Children whom God hath given me .'

[DHK]

If you only knew how many times I have been confronted with this ideology. People must know they are sinners before God holds them accountable and/or are sinners. I told someone once they should have moved with their children to a cave in a high up mountain or a deserted island and the first one who mentioned Christ, bust their mouth. Keep the children dumb, keep them from the gospel, never let them hear the first thing about Christ, and they are heaven bound.

In their model, preaching the gospel and telling them about Christ in a bible study would be the cruelest thing to do.

Thank you for the kind words, mon ami.

OTOH, some of the Calvinists here believe that "I told someone once they should have moved with their children to a cave in a high up mountain or a deserted island and the first one who mentioned Christ, bust their mouth. Keep the children dumb, keep them from the gospel, never let them hear the first thing about Christ, and they are heaven bound."

Then allow the Holy Spirit, without aid of ever hearing the Word, the gospel, etc. come and regenerate them. Then they will have the faith to understand the gospel once they come in contact with it. But first they must be supernaturally, mystically, even superstitiously (if you ask me) regenerated, without the help of any one or any thing.
It seems very much like a Hindu would do trying to reach nirvana.
Or, perhaps the ultimate aim of a Buddhist in his endless meditation.
Eventually the Holy Spirit will come on the elect out of each country and nation--without your help or mine.

 

[SovereignGrace]

OTOH, some of the Calvinists here believe that "I told someone once they should have moved with their children to a cave in a high up mountain or a deserted island and the first one who mentioned Christ, bust their mouth. Keep the children dumb, keep them from the gospel, never let them hear the first thing about Christ, and they are heaven bound."

Show me ONE who has stated this. savedbymercy probably does, seeing he advocates two seedism and a JW doctrine. But he is off the deep end and would not be welcome in any of the theological camps.

Then allow the Holy Spirit, without aid of ever hearing the Word, the gospel, etc. come and regenerate them.

Produce just one post where someone ON HERE has stated this.

Then they will have the faith to understand the gospel once they come in contact with it.

You are stating mysticism here and no Calvinist worth his weight in feathers will state that as truth. God works through His word, through the gospel.

But first they must be supernaturally, mystically, even superstitiously (if you ask me) regenerated, without the help of any one or any thing.

Again, produce just one post of someone saying this.

It seems very much like a Hindu would do trying to reach nirvana.

No Calvinist I know of states this as fact.

Or, perhaps the ultimate aim of a Buddhist in his endless meditation.

You need to address the mystics and Buddhists and not I or any Calvinist.

Eventually the Holy Spirit will come on the elect out of each country and nation--without your help or mine.

Again, show me just one post of a Calvinist who has stated this. You are laying a mysticism charge against us, and I do not think fondly of you doing so.

 

[SovereignGrace]

OTOH, some of the Calvinists here believe that "I told someone once they should have moved with their children to a cave in a high up mountain or a deserted island and the first one who mentioned Christ, bust their mouth. Keep the children dumb, keep them from the gospel, never let them hear the first thing about Christ, and they are heaven bound."

Then allow the Holy Spirit, without aid of ever hearing the Word, the gospel, etc. come and regenerate them. Then they will have the faith to understand the gospel once they come in contact with it. But first they must be supernaturally, mystically, even superstitiously (if you ask me) regenerated, without the help of any one or any thing.
It seems very much like a Hindu would do trying to reach nirvana.
Or, perhaps the ultimate aim of a Buddhist in his endless meditation.
Eventually the Holy Spirit will come on the elect out of each country and nation--without your help or mine.

But I can appreciate this post, too, mon ami. When someone runs out of ammunition, they have to fire blanks.

 

[DHK]

Most have a 'knowledge' that God exists. But that is merely an acknowledgement of His existence. They do not and can not worship Him in their fallen state. As Christ said "His worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”[Jn. 4:24]

In my discussion with Icon, He had explained to him the gospel, and then had given him a Bible. Going on that basis, he had much more than a knowledge that God existed. He had heard the gospel in its entirety. He now had the Bible and could read further. It is not a matter of "worship."
It is a matter of following the model in Acts 17:11, the Bereans who before the accepted the message of Paul, checked first if it was in the OT Scriptures (the only Scriptures they had).

Note carefully the order of events here:
Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

1. He comes to the Jewish synagogue in Berea and preaches to unsaved people.
2. These unsaved people, both Jews and Greeks search the Scriptures to see whether or not the things that Paul is preaching is true.
3. Since they are true, many of them believe, including honourable women among the Greeks and many of the men as well.
--They did not have to be regenerated to search out the scriptures. They did not have to be regenerated to have faith. They were "natural men" and could still understand "the things of God," (a scripture taken out of context by Cals).

Can not say one way or the other, seeing even the other 9 were healed. I do not truly know one way or the other if the other nine believed. But you could be right. I need to study that out further.

Okay.

Which refutes your earlier notion that Christ will draw all men, seeing even in your own post before, you acknowledged not everyone will hear the gospel. But I digress. Faith comes from hearing, which shows an outside Source is necessary to believe, which refutes your notion that we, when we were fallen, still had faith to believe. What about the deaf? They can not hear the gospel. Faith comes from God, and He issues it via His word through preaching, witnessing, and reading. But He is the Source, the Pioneer and Perfecter of our faith.[Heb. 12:2]

You are splitting hairs. I have been perfectly consistent in what I have said.
In the interpretation of Romans 10:17, "the hearing of the Word of God" can come through reading, or reading Braille, or from signing, etc. It is a general word meaning "the reception of the Word." I don't believe it means strictly coming through the audible ear, and I don't think you do either. Faith in Christ comes via the Word of God.
God has given us his word to reveal Christ to us. I believe that is what Heb.1:2 teaches us.
The nature of faith is different. Everyone has faith. Jesus taught even little children have faith. Unless you be as a small child you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. What was he referring to? He was referring to their simplistic faith; perhaps the faith they have in their parents to protect, nourish, guide, etc. They won't go to a stranger but they will cling to their parents because they have complete "confidence" (faith) in their parents. In the same way a person must come to Christ. They must put their simplistic confidence in the promises of God (the way of salvation).
It is not the nature of faith that is the problem; it is the object of faith. The object of the child's faith is the parents. If one wants to be saved the object of his faith must be Christ, and Christ alone. He is the only person that can save.

True. And I showed you the native americans had not a bible before John Eliot translated one in the 1600's. Thank you for helping me out here.

How did they get there? When did they get there? At what time in history did they reject the truth about God? These are all valid questions. They just did not supernaturally and suddenly appear.
They were as Paul said:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
--They held the truth, but held it in unrighteousness.
--What they knew about God was manifest in them, for God had revealed it to them. They had no excuse. At some time in their history they had rejected the truth. The question is, when?
If you want a similar story as to what is happening today, read here, it is more encouraging:
http://www.worthynews.com/20283-armenian-turks-convert-back-to-christianity
Armenian Turks Convert back to Christianity
--Generations ago their ancestors were forced into Islam. Now they are turning to Christ.

Regeneration brings faith and repentance and this brings salvation.

That is illogical.
Regeneration and salvation happen simultaneously. If regeneration brings faith then it is possible to have regenerated people with faith, but not yet saved individuals running around. That scenario is ludicrous.
The Word of God brings faith. Both precede regeneration and salvation which are simultaneous.

Nekros, mon ami, nekros.

The Holy Spirit uses the word for emphasis. Death still is separation. At physical death the spirit separates from the body. (nekros or no nekros). If not saved the person is eternally separated from God. Death is separation. And what will happen "at the second death," when death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire? Ultimate and final separation! The consequence for rejecting Christ!

 

[DHK]

Uh, no he does not. 1 Cor. 2:14 and Rom. 8:7 state otherwise.

These verses are addressed to the saved, not the unsaved.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--There is no unsaved man in this picture. Paul is not speaking about an unsaved man, although the application could apply to an unsaved man. He is speaking to the Corinthians who were carnal Christians.

First, he calls the carnal in 1Cor.3:1-4.
2:14 is near the end of the second chapter and then immediately in chapter three he begins:
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
--He calls them "brethren," and tells them they are "carnal," i.e., "carnal Christians," and so they were. This is the context.

What were carnal Christians unable to do?
1. As babes in Christ they were not able to eat spiritual meat.
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
2. As babes in Christ they could only drink the milk of the Word.
3. As babes in Christ they were not able to understand the "deep spiritual truths of God," (chapter two).

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
--These spiritual truths the Corinthians, being babes in Christ, were not able to understand.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
--The deep things of God are known through the Spirit of God.
Paul then goes on to describe how the Spirit dwelling in us helps us to understand spiritual things.
But the Corinthians, though they had the Spirit, acted carnally, as if they did not have the Spirit.

Therefore, Paul says to them:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--They were the ones that were spiritually discerned, babes in Christ, "carnal" and as the natural man."
Paul was referring to the Corinthians, not the typical unsaved man.

If man possesses faith as you previously stated, then why does the Spirit, through the word, give him the faith needed to believe? Dead people have dead faith, seeing they are devoid of good works.

Everyone has faith. Faith needs an object. The object needs to be Christ. It is the Word of God that gives us the object of our faith.
Hebrews 11 goes through an entire list of "the heroes of the faith."
Then in chapter 12 it says:

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
--Look to Jesus (Let him be the object of your faith)
--Consider Jesus (Let him be the object of your faith).
If any other person or thing is the object of your faith it is idolatry and you will fail. The Word of God is the revelation that tells us where to put our faith. The faith we already have. We exercise it every day, just in different realms. There is nothing mystical about "faith." It is confidence, trust.

Yes. God works through His word. Romans 10:14 states How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

You have summarized the Great Commission--our obligation to go to those who have not heard.

It takes God the quicken the sinner, in this quickening, faith and repentance are given to be exercised. This is all done via His word.

Yes, the preaching of his word is imperative.

 

[SovereignGrace]

In my discussion with Icon, He had explained to him the gospel, and then had given him a Bible. Going on that basis, he had much more than a knowledge that God existed. He had heard the gospel in its entirety. He now had the Bible and could read further. It is not a matter of "worship."

What I mean is Iconoclast did his part in presenting the gospel and the Turkish muslim left with a bible. We do not know if he took it just out of curiosity, to have another book to read, &c. We are commanded to present the gospel to all creation. Those that hear will live [Isa. 55:3 & Jn 5:25]

It is a matter of following the model in Acts 17:11, the Bereans who before the accepted the message of Paul, checked first if it was in the OT Scriptures (the only Scriptures they had).

Note carefully the order of events here:
Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

1. He comes to the Jewish synagogue in Berea and preaches to unsaved people.
2. These unsaved people, both Jews and Greeks search the Scriptures to see whether or not the things that Paul is preaching is true.
3. Since they are true, many of them believe, including honourable women among the Greeks and many of the men as well.
--They did not have to be regenerated to search out the scriptures. They did not have to be regenerated to have faith. They were "natural men" and could still understand "the things of God," (a scripture taken out of context by Cals).

Notice that they had heard Paul preach first. Paul planted the seed here. He gave them the preached word, the gospel. Acts is a 'toughy' to truly preach from, seeing there was a transitional phase as peoples were coming out from Judaism, peoples trying to live lasciviously and still remain in the local churches, &c. But I see what you are saying. But none can truly grasp the gospel outside of the Spirit of God. God used Paul to present the gospel truths and they believed via the word. That is where Paul stated I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow.[1 Cor. 3:6] We preach the word, witness to people, that is us doing our part. God's part is saving the sheep, those that believe.

Okay.

:thumbs:

You are splitting hairs. I have been perfectly consistent in what I have said.
In the interpretation of Romans 10:17, "the hearing of the Word of God" can come through reading, or reading Braille, or from signing, etc. It is a general word meaning "the reception of the Word." I don't believe it means strictly coming through the audible ear, and I don't think you do either. Faith in Christ comes via the Word of God.

Agree.

God has given us his word to reveal Christ to us.

Agree. Good so far.

I believe that is what Heb.1:2 teaches us.

It takes more than just reading the word to be saved. I read it for years, but could get nothing out of it. God is the Pioneer(Author) and Perfector(Finisher) of our faith, mon ami. Anyone can read it, but only those who are saved can truly grasp it. This saying that the gospel is so simple that even a child can understand it, is a slap in the faces of Clarke, Tozer, CHS, Calvin, Luther, et al. These Brethern spent years studying God's word. God grants(gifts) repentance and faith via regeneration.

The nature of faith is different. Everyone has faith. Jesus taught even little children have faith. Unless you be as a small child you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. What was he referring to? He was referring to their simplistic faith; perhaps the faith they have in their parents to protect, nourish, guide, etc. They won't go to a stranger but they will cling to their parents because they have complete "confidence" (faith) in their parents. In the same way a person must come to Christ. They must put their simplistic confidence in the promises of God (the way of salvation).
It is not the nature of faith that is the problem; it is the object of faith. The object of the child's faith is the parents. If one wants to be saved the object of his faith must be Christ, and Christ alone. He is the only person that can save.

Uh, mon ami, scripture easily refutes you. For we can read And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.[2 Cor. 3:2] There is only one faith that saves, via God granting it unto us as even Jesus stated Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”[Jn 6:29]

How did they get there? When did they get there? At what time in history did they reject the truth about God? These are all valid questions. They just did not supernaturally and suddenly appear.

The point I am making is the natives did not possess a bible until Eliot translated one for them. They had no way of You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me.[John 5:39]

They were as Paul said:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
--They held the truth, but held it in unrighteousness.
--What they knew about God was manifest in them, for God had revealed it to them. They had no excuse. At some time in their history they had rejected the truth. The question is, when?
If you want a similar story as to what is happening today, read here, it is more encouraging:
http://www.worthynews.com/20283-armenian-turks-convert-back-to-christianity
Armenian Turks Convert back to Christianity
--Generations ago their ancestors were forced into Islam. Now they are turning to Christ.

They held the truth in that they had a natural revelation of God. Even nature points to God's existence, as Romans 1 & Psalms 19 proclaim.

That is illogical.

Howso?

Regeneration and salvation happen simultaneously.

Agree.

If regeneration brings faith then it is possible to have regenerated people with faith, but not yet saved individuals running around. That scenario is ludicrous.
The Word of God brings faith. Both precede regeneration and salvation which are simultaneous.

Huh? Wha? Regeneration comes via the word as God moves upon the heart of a sinner. Sinners hear the word, God moves upon the sinner as they hear, they then act upon what they hear. Regeneration comes via the word, faith and repentance comes via regeneration, and faith and repentance are exercised. All this by God working through the gospel.

The Holy Spirit uses the word for emphasis. Death still is separation. At physical death the spirit separates from the body. (nekros or no nekros). If not saved the person is eternally separated from God. Death is separation. And what will happen "at the second death," when death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire? Ultimate and final separation! The consequence for rejecting Christ!

Why are they seperated? Sin, yes. Sin brought death, nekros. They died, they are dead to righteousness. They are seperated from God due to their death, seeing God is I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”[Matt. 22:32]

 

[Rippon]

These verses are addressed to the saved, not the unsaved.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--There is no unsaved man in this picture. Paul is not speaking about an unsaved man, although the application could apply to an unsaved man. He is speaking to the Corinthians who were carnal Christians.

You are an unteachable, hardheaded person.

On 3/31/2015 you said :"It may describe an unsaved man."

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (NIV)

The NET Bible and HCSB both have "the unbeliever"

Matthew Henry : "the man destitute of the Spirit of God."
John Gill : "an unregenerate man."
Adam Clarke :"the man without the regenerating grace of God."
Barnes Notes :"It refers to unregenerate people."
Robertson's Word Pictures :"An unregenerate man."
Wesley's Explanatory Notes: "every man who hath not the Spirit."
Peter Pott's Commentary on the Bible :"the man without the Spirit."
Thomas Constable's Expository notes of the Bible :"any person who does not possess the Holy Spirit."
John Piper sermon :"The man ...who is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit."

This person in 1 Cor. 2:14 who regards the things of God as foolishness is the very same kind of person described in 1 Cor. 1:18 :"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing."

In short, a person who is Spiritless, i.e. unregenerate.

Everyone has faith.

Those are the words of a man.

"And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men, for not everyone has faith." (2 Thess. 3:2)

Those are the words of God.

 

[DHK]

You are an unteachable, hardheaded person.

On 3/31/2015 you said :"It may describe an unsaved man."

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (NIV)

The NET Bible and HCSB both have "the unbeliever"

Matthew Henry : "the man destitute of the Spirit of God."
John Gill : "an unregenerate man."
Adam Clarke :"the man without the regenerating grace of God."
Barnes Notes :"It refers to unregenerate people."
Robertson's Word Pictures :"An unregenerate man."
Wesley's Explanatory Notes: "every man who hath not the Spirit."
Peter Pott's Commentary on the Bible :"the man without the Spirit."
Thomas Constable's Expository notes of the Bible :"any person who does not possess the Holy Spirit."
John Piper sermon :"The man ...who is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit."

This person in 1 Cor. 2:14 who regards the things of God as foolishness is the very same kind of person described in 1 Cor. 1:18 :"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing."

In short, a person who is Spiritless, i.e. unregenerate.


Those are the words of a man.

And the above is an opinion; the ramblings of a man, who sometimes cares to share his opinion on the board.
Those that flail away with ad hominems are not worth answering.

 

[Rippon]

And the above is an opinion;

I made clear the Word of God.

the ramblings of a man,

What you dismiss as that are not considered to be such by many.

who sometimes cares to share his opinion on the board.

"Sometimes" ? Of course I care to share with every post.

Those that flail away with ad hominems are not worth answering.

Stuff your ears like a petulant child then.

 

[DHK]

Huh? Wha? Regeneration comes via the word as God moves upon the heart of a sinner. Sinners hear the word, God moves upon the sinner as they hear, they then act upon what they hear. Regeneration comes via the word, faith and repentance comes via regeneration, and faith and repentance are exercised. All this by God working through the gospel.

Let me respond to just this part first. I know it has to do with the "ordo salutis."

I have heard some use the example of Cornelius (and wrongly so).
They claim that because God spoke to him, and because he was "devout" that he was regenerated. Thus he had faith.

Then Peter came to him and preached the gospel. Now already being regenerated and having the faith to believe he was able to be saved as Peter preached the gospel.

I find such an exposition of the passage ridiculous.
He was a "devout proselyte", a Roman soldier well liked among the Jews. He was not saved, not even regenerated. In this case, those that argue he was regenerated would have to admit that there is a man--regenerated and having the gift of faith for at least six days, but not saved!! What kind of man is that?? How can one be regenerated and not saved? How can he be regenerated and not hear the gospel?

Even the Word of God is against this position when it claims:
"being born again by the Word of God." (1Pet.1:23). Yet, this is the "proof text" of putting regeneration before salvation.

Regeneration and salvation happen simultaneously.
According to 1Pet.1:23 the Word must precede before regeneration, and consequently faith in the Word. The Holy Spirit uses the Word. He convicts of sin. But faith in the Bible is defined as: a spiritual gift (1Cor.12), and a fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5). Nowhere in the Word does God give spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to unregenerate people.
Consistently we read that faith comes from the Word of God--not directly from God, at least not until one is a believer.

Many times in my ministry I have seen men hear the Word of God, have been convicted by the Spirit of God, and still refuse to believe. But often there comes a point in their life when they do believe. That decision is theirs, though the Holy Spirit is involved. It is the Word, faith, and then regeneration and salvation simultaneously. I don't see any other way.

 

[Rippon]

That decision is theirs, though the Holy Spirit is involved.

There you go spouting that nonsense once again. At one time you had said that The Holy Spirit may have been involved." Yeah, God got the memo. He may have been watching as a spectator. He's there on the sidelines. What utter stupidity.

 

[SovereignGrace]

These verses are addressed to the saved, not the unsaved.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--There is no unsaved man in this picture. Paul is not speaking about an unsaved man, although the application could apply to an unsaved man. He is speaking to the Corinthians who were carnal Christians.

Oh, the carnal christian doctrine. The same words used as natural man is used These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.[Jude 19]

First, he calls the carnal in 1Cor.3:1-4.
2:14 is near the end of the second chapter and then immediately in chapter three he begins:
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
--He calls them "brethren," and tells them they are "carnal," i.e., "carnal Christians," and so they were. This is the context.

What were carnal Christians unable to do?
1. As babes in Christ they were not able to eat spiritual meat.
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
2. As babes in Christ they could only drink the milk of the Word.
3. As babes in Christ they were not able to understand the "deep spiritual truths of God," (chapter two).

It appears to me he is addressing the false converts that had polluted the church with their doctrine. Even one had his step-mother, taking her from his father in chapter 5. One of the usages of the word carnal is governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God. I am hard pressed to believe a true convert is in this shape.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
--These spiritual truths the Corinthians, being babes in Christ, were not able to understand.

It takes growth to understand yes. It is the church's responsibilty to bring up the young converts up in preaching, teaching the word of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
--The deep things of God are known through the Spirit of God.
Paul then goes on to describe how the Spirit dwelling in us helps us to understand spiritual things.
But the Corinthians, though they had the Spirit, acted carnally, as if they did not have the Spirit.

Either they were young converts not knowing what they were doing, or false converts that had infiltrated the Corinthian church. I tend to believe it is the latter and not the former.

Therefore, Paul says to them:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--They were the ones that were spiritually discerned, babes in Christ, "carnal" and as the natural man."
Paul was referring to the Corinthians, not the typical unsaved man.

He was talking about men devoid of the Spirit of God. The same verbiage used in Jude 19, those who are devoid of the Spirit.

Everyone has faith. Faith needs an object. The object needs to be Christ. It is the Word of God that gives us the object of our faith.
Hebrews 11 goes through an entire list of "the heroes of the faith."

I wish you would quit saying that which I bolded. 2 Thess. 2:3 refutes that ideology.

Then in chapter 12 it says:

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
--Look to Jesus (Let him be the object of your faith)
--Consider Jesus (Let him be the object of your faith).
If any other person or thing is the object of your faith it is idolatry and you will fail. The Word of God is the revelation that tells us where to put our faith. The faith we already have. We exercise it every day, just in different realms. There is nothing mystical about "faith." It is confidence, trust.

He is the Pioneer(Author) & Perfector(Finisher) of our faith. He gifts it unto us via regeneration of the Spirit.

You have summarized the Great Commission--our obligation to go to those who have not heard.


Yes, the preaching of his word is imperative.

Agree.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

How did they get there? When did they get there? At what time in history did they reject the truth about God? These are all valid questions. They just did not supernaturally and suddenly appear.
They were as Paul said:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
--They held the truth, but held it in unrighteousness.
--What they knew about God was manifest in them, for God had revealed it to them. They had no excuse. At some time in their history they had rejected the truth. The question is, when?

Brother DHK,

Do you believe every human being post resurrection of Christ has heard the gospel message preached to them at some point before death?

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

Do you believe every human being post resurrection of Christ has heard the gospel message preached to them at some point before death?

No. But I do believe that anyone who sincerely desires to hear the gospel, that is the one and only true God, and His way of salvation, then God will show Him that way.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 

[Rippon]

Brother DHK,

Do you believe every human being post resurrection of Christ has heard the gospel message preached to them at some point before death?

No, he doesn't believe that. DHK has said that he was a Roman Catholic for twenty years and never heard the Gospel during all that time. If he didn't hear it --how many others who remained in that communion a lifetime died without hearing the Evangel.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Let me respond to just this part first. I know it has to do with the "ordo salutis."

Correct.

I have heard some use the example of Cornelius (and wrongly so).
They claim that because God spoke to him, and because he was "devout" that he was regenerated. Thus he had faith.

Then Peter came to him and preached the gospel. Now already being regenerated and having the faith to believe he was able to be saved as Peter preached the gospel.

An angel of the Lord appeared unto him, so God was already working on him. You have every right to believe as you do, although I disagree with your stance.

I find such an exposition of the passage ridiculous.

You have an entitlement to your belief, mon ami.

He was a "devout proselyte", a Roman soldier well liked among the Jews. He was not saved, not even regenerated. In this case, those that argue he was regenerated would have to admit that there is a man--regenerated and having the gift of faith for at least six days, but not saved!! What kind of man is that?? How can one be regenerated and not saved? How can he be regenerated and not hear the gospel?

Paul had a similiar experience as Cornelius'. That is why I won't make too many doctrinal stances from using the book of Acts. There are things that took place then that were during the 'Apolstolic Age' where Peter made a lame man run and leap, Paul was spoken to by Jesus verbally, an angel spoke with Cornelius in a vision, Eutychus was revived by Paul falling upon him, &c. Many accounts that happened in Acts no longer happen today.

Even the Word of God is against this position when it claims:
"being born again by the Word of God." (1Pet.1:23). Yet, this is the "proof text" of putting regeneration before salvation.

They happen simultaenously, mon ami.

Regeneration and salvation happen simultaneously.

:thumbsup:

According to 1Pet.1:23 the Word must precede before regeneration, and consequently faith in the Word. The Holy Spirit uses the Word. He convicts of sin. But faith in the Bible is defined as: a spiritual gift (1Cor.12), and a fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5). Nowhere in the Word does God give spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to unregenerate people.

Word/gospel first, yes. Regeneration brings faith and repentance. Dead peoples have dead faith, mon ami. If faith is a Spiritual gift(and it is), they why do you repeatedly say 'all men have faith?' If all people have faith, even those who die and go to hell, go having a spiritual gift of God. The reason why they have faith as a Spiritual gift, is the birth from above.

Consistently we read that faith comes from the Word of God--not directly from God, at least not until one is a believer.

John 6:29, mon ami. Also Phpps. 2:13, Rom. 9:16, Heb. 12:2, Rom. 12:3.

Many times in my ministry I have seen men hear the Word of God, have been convicted by the Spirit of God, and still refuse to believe.

How do you know? Does the Spirit tell you this?

But often there comes a point in their life when they do believe. That decision is theirs, though the Holy Spirit is involved. It is the Word, faith, and then regeneration and salvation simultaneously. I don't see any other way.

The Spirit is involved, even if they chose to die and go to hell? Huh? That reeks of semi-peligian teaching.

 

[DHK]

Oh, the carnal christian doctrine. The same words used as natural man is used These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.[Jude 19]

In 3:1, Paul addresses them both as "brethren" and as "carnal" at the same time. There is no reason not to consider them as "brethren", and as he calls them in chapter one,
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
--Here they are referred to as "babes" as in "babes in Christ," not the unsaved. There is no indication anywhere that he is addressing false teachers in this chapter.

It appears to me he is addressing the false converts that had polluted the church with their doctrine. Even one had his step-mother, taking her from his father in chapter 5. One of the usages of the word carnal is governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God. I am hard pressed to believe a true convert is in this shape.

Even that carnal individual in chapter five was a member, a saved individual, who later repented of "that particular sin," and was later admitted back into the church. Sin does not mean a person is unsaved. It means they need to repent.
How many overweight preachers stand in the pulpits today? That in and of itself is indicative of carnality.

It takes growth to understand yes. It is the church's responsibilty to bring up the young converts up in preaching, teaching the word of God.

Agreed.

Either they were young converts not knowing what they were doing, or false converts that had infiltrated the Corinthian church. I tend to believe it is the latter and not the former.

I don't see the evidence in this chapter of any reference to false teachers.

He was talking about men devoid of the Spirit of God. The same verbiage used in Jude 19, those who are devoid of the Spirit.

It was a contrast. There are some Christians that live their lives and act according to the Spirit, and there are other Christians that live their lives as if they didn't have the Spirit--that is, carnally. I see plenty of them around. They blend into the world well. They profess to be Christians but you would never know it.

I wish you would quit saying that which I bolded. 2 Thess. 2:3 refutes that ideology.

I have faith that when I turn the key in my ignition my car will start.
I have faith in the taxi driver that he will take me where I ask him.
I have faith that my son will complete the task I asked him to do.
I have faith in my wife that she will soon finish making supper

Abraham defined faith:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

In the things I mentioned, I was confident that the people that said they would do those things would accomplish them.
In spiritual matters, Abraham was "persuaded that what God had promised God was going to do." That is faith. It is not supernatural, mystical, etc. It is confidence, trust. Something we exercise everyday. The difference, in the spiritual realm, is that our object is God, Christ, not my wife or son, or some other object.

He is the Pioneer(Author) & Perfector(Finisher) of our faith. He gifts it unto us via regeneration of the Spirit.

In this verse it is the tangible faith, not the subjective faith that is being spoken of. It is the faith that Jude spoke of, when he said: We must contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. He is the author and finisher of "the faith," our faith, our salvation, our Christianity, our relationship with Christ--not simply that trust that one has.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

No. But I do believe that anyone who sincerely desires to hear the gospel, that is the one and only true God, and His way of salvation, then God will show Him that way.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

I thought you maintain one is damned for unbelief after hearing the gospel? How do you reconcile that with your belief that not everyone hears it?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

No. But I do believe that anyone who sincerely desires to hear the gospel, that is the one and only true God, and His way of salvation, then God will show Him that way.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Brother DHK,

That verse from Titus 2:11 that you quoted above proves that the "all men" in the verse that the "grace of God" has "appeared" to couldn't be every human being because it says the effect of the grace appearing to men is that it "bringeth salvation", but we know not every human being gets salvation.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

No, he doesn't believe that. DHK has said that he was a Roman Catholic for twenty years and never heard the Gospel during all that time. If he didn't hear it --how many others who remained in that communion a lifetime died without hearing the Evangel.

Brother Rippon,

I do not believe all people hear the gospel either.