A case for Free Will through self-imposed limitations of the Sovereignty of God

[exscentric]

Helen and Hankd:

Ya think

It was tongue in cheek to the point of great pain!

Will try to be clearer in my foggyness from now on

 

[HankD]

EX,
You should say what you mean and mean what you say for us who are tongue-in-cheek impaired.

Yes I know you didn't have a choice.

HankD

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Acumenical:
I'm guessing that bjonson's point is that not much that is new can be added to the free will debate at this late date, which is something with which I agree. Of course, I'm not suggesting that the debate should end, only that no new ideas on the subject are likely to surface.

That is exactly what I was saying, thank you. And, if a person is truly interested in this discussion then the least they can do is become familiar with church history and know how this discussion was debated prior. No offense to anyone here, but Erasmus and Luther dealt with this on a much higher level intellectually then we are. Also, they touched on every verse that seems to defend their position.

I read The Bondage of the Will this past summer and learned a great deal. It is just a suggestion.

 

[Me4Him]

The following is a "Classical" statement/argument made by Calvinist.

The doctrine that is really repugnant to us all is the absolute depravity and deadness of man. Every fiber of man's being, inclination of the heart, thought, deed, & word has been tainted and tinted by the deadness and darkness of the sin in the heart. This includes the so-called "free will of man." It has "freedom," but this "freedom" is only in concert with its nature.

Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to "WILL" is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Did you notice the different between the "WILL" and the "FLESH"??

Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

"Total depravity" doesn't line up with scripture when applied to the "Heart/Conscience" (WILL) of man,

We're "BORN" with the knowledge of "GOOD" and "Evil".

Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


Paul recognized the "Difference" between the "depravity" of the "Flesh and Mind".

We would love to believe we have freedom to come to God when we want; but in actuality we are the "living dead" not even knowing we are dead spiritually.

Calvin "premise" that none "Seek God" (without God calling/saving them) clearly is faults.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The "Spirit's" function is to help us "purge our Conscience" of evil,...IF... we have the "desire" to "serve/worship God" according to "His instructions".

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


The one "Common Characteristic" of people all over the world is to "Serve/worship" some type of God.

Clearly the "depravity" is not in the "WILL TO WORSHIP", but in the ability to "Abstain" from sin,

Our "Conscience" knows "Right from Wrong", even if we've never heard the Gospel, and we have a "sovereign right" to "CHOSE" between "Right/Wrong", and for which we are Judged.


The "SEED" must be planted in "GOOD EARTH" before it will grow.

Body=Dust of the earth, ragardless of how much "SONLIGHT" or "WATER" (SPIRIT) the seed gets, unless it is planted in "GOOD EARTH", it won't grow.

and that is "MAN'S" contribution (Worship/Service) to God.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bjonson:
I have a question for those who are involved in this discussion. Have you ever read "The Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther?

I ask this because this whole argument was covered rather masterfully by him nearly 500 years ago and he expounded the scriptures fully as he resisted the errant teaching of the Roman Church.

Luther's writings are not inspired; so please don't think I am stating that. However, this topic was pretty much settled by this masterpiece and there is not much else to say if you've read this work.

I have to laugh at people who make statements like this. I mean who forgot to tell the rest of or majority of people that this was all settled 500 years ago!!! I don't think so BJ.

And oh yeah, the "this is RC" teaching is getting old. RC believe Jesus was the son of God. Should we abandon this teaching also, cause they got it right you know! </font>[/QUOTE]Tim,

Twice now I have posted a passage from Romans 9 as a direct answer to your statements against God's equity and you have been silent. I make a suggestion that we become familiar with Luther's writing on the subject of free will and you reply with a pithy dismissal.

It is a bit disappointing and makes me wonder if you are being driven by a desire for God's Word or a defense of a strongly held tradition.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by bjonson:

I read The Bondage of the Will this past summer and learned a great deal. It is just a suggestion. [/QB]

One of the "biggest" problem in the church today is that the "Books/opinion of men" are read/translated as "Gospel",

rather than "God's word/opinion of the Holy Ghost".

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Man/doctrines/Denomination can all do something that is "Impossible" for God to do,

LIE

The "Gospel" is only understood in/by the "HEART", not the "HEAD", it a "Spirit to Spirit" education that "man's books" (worldly wisdom) can't teach.


Any looking for this "education", "in the world", is "wasting their time".

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bjonson:

I read The Bondage of the Will this past summer and learned a great deal. It is just a suggestion.

One of the "biggest" problem in the church today is that the "Books/opinion of men" are read/translated as "Gospel",

rather than "God's word/opinion of the Holy Ghost".

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Man/doctrines/Denomination can all do something that is "Impossible" for God to do,

LIE

The "Gospel" is only understood in/by the "HEART", not the "HEAD", it a "Spirit to Spirit" education that "man's books" (worldly wisdom) can't teach.


Any looking for this "education", "in the world", is "wasting their time".

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]me4him,

Well, it's unfortunate that even though I clearly said in an earlier post that I do not consider Luther "inspired", you still make this post toward me. No, I don't put anyone on the level of scripture, but there is no doubt that we can benefit from men and women who teach God's word faithfully and who are called to be teachers because of the gifting that God has given them. The scriptures says in 1 Corinthians and Ephesians that teaching is a spiritual gift. Elders are to be "apt to teach" as we know from 1 Timothy.

Can you honestly tell this board that you never read anything but the Bible in your Christian growth?

 

[canadyjd]

Me4Him

You have misread Romans 7. Paul is not giving us a picture of "free-will" making bad decisions. He is giving us a picture of "human-will" enslaved to sin. That is the whole point of the passage.

peace to you

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by bjonson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bjonson:

I read The Bondage of the Will this past summer and learned a great deal. It is just a suggestion.

One of the "biggest" problem in the church today is that the "Books/opinion of men" are read/translated as "Gospel",

rather than "God's word/opinion of the Holy Ghost".

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Man/doctrines/Denomination can all do something that is "Impossible" for God to do,

LIE

The "Gospel" is only understood in/by the "HEART", not the "HEAD", it a "Spirit to Spirit" education that "man's books" (worldly wisdom) can't teach.


Any looking for this "education", "in the world", is "wasting their time".

</font>[/QUOTE]me4him,

Well, it's unfortunate that even though I clearly said in an earlier post that I do not consider Luther "inspired", you still make this post toward me. No, I don't put anyone on the level of scripture, but there is no doubt that we can benefit from men and women who teach God's word faithfully and who are called to be teachers because of the gifting that God has given them. The scriptures says in 1 Corinthians and Ephesians that teaching is a spiritual gift. Elders are to be "apt to teach" as we know from 1 Timothy.

Can you honestly tell this board that you never read anything but the Bible in your Christian growth? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]My "comment" wasn't "Directed" at any "specific Individual", I simply used that comment to make a point, but I will say this,


"A person seeking "TRUTH", isn't "offended" by "TRUTH".

but there is no doubt that we can benefit from men and women who teach God's word faithfully and who are called to be teachers because of the gifting that God has given them.

Scripture requires "TWO WITNESSES" to "establish the matter", but many accept at "face value" whatever they read/hear without ever checking with the "second witness" (HG) for conformation.

I read other books until I learned they wasn't needed, "late, great planet earth" I think was the last.

And in those years spend reading the BIBLE" is when I have learned the most.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by canadyjd:
Me4Him

You have misread Romans 7. Paul is not giving us a picture of "free-will" making bad decisions. He is giving us a picture of "human-will" enslaved to sin. That is the whole point of the passage.

peace to you

Until you separate the "inward man" from the "outward man", you'll not get close to understanding Romans.

People who never heard of "GOD", still worship some type of God, in some manner, so the "DESIRE" to "Worship" is "THERE", but "HOW" to "ATTAIN" (Worship/obey/comform his image) to that "GOD" is the question Paul asked, and that is only through JESUS.

 

[bjonson]

So, when the Bible says in Ephesians that "teachers" are given for the edification of the church, what does that mean to you?

This question is for me4him.

 

[canadyjd]

Me4Him

The only place I can find in Romans (2:28) that Paul speaks of "inward" and "outward" is not in relation to being a "man" but to being a "Jew". It is an argument that outward circumcism does not make a person a Jew, but the inward circumcism of the heart.

That said, "inward" and "outward" is not a major theme in Romans.

On the other hand, slavery and slave language is a major, perhaps the primary, theme of Romans.

When Paul speaks of "desire" in Romans 7 is not a desire to "worship" (there is no idea of worship in the context) but the desire to do "good".

The language Paul uses is slave language. When a slave was freed, or bought his freedom, he would use phrases like, "I go where I want to go, and I do what I want to do." It was an expression of a freeman.

Paul plays on that slave language by saying, "(15)for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate..(17) So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

Sin, here and elsewhere in Romans, is personified as a slave master, reigning in the life of the unbeliever. When sin is through with its slave, it sells him off to the death master (also personified in Romans as "reigning" in the life of unbelievers)

Paul is clearly painting a picture that (as an unbeliever) his will is enslaved to sin, and that he is doing the things sin wants him to do. When he cries out in v.24, "Wretched man that I am! (a term used by slaves to express their dismay at being a slave) Who will set me free (slave language) from this (slave) body (belonging to) the death(master)?

The answer is found in v.25, God frees us through the person of Jesus Christ from the sin and death masters.

You will never understand scripture if you don't stop bringing preconceived ideas to the text and then trying to make the text say what you want it to say.

All scripture must be understood in the context in which it was written.

peace to you

 

[rozy]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Even sovereign rulers allow subjects freedom to do things

God is not a puppetmaster, nor are we puppets

 

[Helen]

All scripture must be understood in the context in which it was written.

Amen.

And predestination of the believer is what he will become, not that he will be a believer.

And Romans 7:7-11 FIRMLY puts the passages which follow as applicable to the person before redemption, for the statement that Paul makes regarding "I died," "I was dead..." etc. occurs many times immediately preceding this passage and he is not rescued until the end of Romans 7.

All Scripture must be understood in context.

 

[bjonson]

Helen,

I appreciate your kind posts that are well thought out and clear. I want to ask you what you think of Romans 8:29 and following. I see this as only having one interpretation, and that is that God predestines certain ones for salvation and ultimate glorification. How do you view this passage?

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Helen]

Hi, and thank you. Romans 8:29 starts with Romans 8:28.

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,
who have been called according to his purpose.
For those God foreknew
he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son
that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

The first identification is not those who were predestined to anything, but those who love Him. These, who love Him, are predestined to become conformed to the likeness of his Son.

The following verses about justification and glorification explain, actually, what Paul is referring to in Phil. 1:6 when he states that God will finish the good work He has started in us. No one will be left 'half-done.'

Likewise, the predestination passage in Ephesians 1, where those who believe (see v.13) are predestined to be adopted a sons, in accordance with His pleasure and will -- the same will spoken of in John 1:13 regarding those who believe on His name (or character, which is what 'name' refers to, actually). Believers are also predestined to be "for the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:12).

But in order to claim believers were predestined to be believers, you have to eliminate qualifying phrases and parts of context, and I can't do that!

 

[bjonson]

Ok, so I should have included verse 28 - I agree, that is important.

So what is the object of the sentence "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son..."?

 

[bjonson]

Oops - I see you are already discussing this passage on the "no one seeks God" forum. I'll just jump over to that one.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by bjonson:
So, when the Bible says in Ephesians that "teachers" are given for the edification of the church, what does that mean to you?

This question is for me4him.

Do you "accept" anything, everything you hear/read as TRUTH, or do you look for something to verify that heard/read??

The "News Media" is a good example, whatever they "report" is taken by the majority as "Gospel", very few have the "insight" to detect a "slant" in the reporting, or even "Care" enough to be "suspicious".

"Teachers" are placed in churches, but so are "False teachers", but how are you going to "tell the difference between them??

Only "one way", "Holy Ghost".

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:

 

[bjonson]

so, me4him, you only listen to a teacher if he is in a church but what if he prints a book. Will you read the book? If he is a true teacher, and not a false, will you read his book?