A case for Free Will through self-imposed limitations of the Sovereignty of God

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There would division be if God the Father knew something that God the Son or God the Holy Spirit did not know.

Why would there be a division just because the Son of God willingly denied Himself the knowledge of His return?

The Father is not the Son and therefore does not know by experience what it is to be a human being. Does that mean there is a division in the Godhead because the Son knows something the Father doesn't?

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]You continue to deny Scripture. The Apostle Paul tells us in Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There would division be if God the Father knew something that God the Son or God the Holy Spirit did not know.

Why would there be a division just because the Son of God willingly denied Himself the knowledge of His return?

The Father is not the Son and therefore does not know by experience what it is to be a human being. Does that mean there is a division in the Godhead because the Son knows something the Father doesn't?

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]You continue to deny Scripture. The Apostle Paul tells us in Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. </font>[/QUOTE]Your "example" could also be "turned around" and it said:

Jesus was not "God" because God is a spirit, Jesus was "flesh", God can't be tempted with sin, Jesus was, and God can't die, Jesus did, so how can Jesus be God???

To understand the scripture, you'll have to "Separate" the scripture into the "CONTEXT OF SCRIPTURE". (God or Jesus) and as shown above they are "DIFFERENT", yet the "SAME".

(stop scratching your head)

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
The pastor preached about the doctrine of election tonight and basically gave the arminian version of the doctrine. His strongest argument tonight, in my mind, for free-will, was the idea that God is sovereign, but that he limits his sovereignty to the point that he does not impose his will for salvation upon us. The idea that God limits his sovereignty certainly seems to me to have some basis in the Bible as the Bible states that Jesus did not know the day nor the hour of his return: Matthew 24:36 , and that he emptied himself: Phillipians 2:5-7 .

What are your thoughts about this concept limiting his own sovereignty?

Joseph Botwinick

My thought is that it would make no difference in favor of the sinner if the biblical use of absolute terms like dead, deaf, blind, etc have any meaning at all.

EX: A man falls to the ground dead. Fortunately, a doctor with all the necessary instruments, knowledge, and authority to revive him is standing close by. Exactly how would it benefit the man for the doctor to limit himself? It would be ridiculous for the doctor to say "Well I will limit my willingness to help him only if he asks me". It isn't in his nature to ask or reach out to accept anything... HE'S DEAD! The only way he can express anything is for his nature to be changed to life.

Man does exercise free will but the limits of that free will are determined by his nature... and his nature can only be changed by God.

 

[bjonson]

I have to ask this of all those who are celebrated and magnifying man's "free will":

WHAT ABOUT GOD'S FREE WILL???

Why are we not willing to recongnize that if man truly has the freedom to thwart the will of God (which the anti-Calvinist says is that every person who has ever lived be saved), then man's will is therefore supplanting God's will? If this were possible, and it is not, then God is no longer sovereign. Yes, I know the OP posits the idea that God somehow limits His sovereignty in order to protect the fallen free will of His creatures, but I am unable to see that from scripture. In fact, the following verses show just Who is in charge of matters concerning human activities and decisions:

Proverbs 21:1 - The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Ezra 1:1 - Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying:

Ezra 1:5 - Then the heads of fathers’ households of Judah and Benjamin and the priests and the Levites arose, even everyone whose spirit God had stirred to go up and rebuild the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.

Acts 16:14 - A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

2 Corinthians 4:6 - For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-5 - But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

2 Timothy 2:25 - with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

And finally, look closely at this familiar passage:

John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Did you see that? We who are born again were not born OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH OR THE WILL OF MAN.

God is in charge. He is the Potter and we are the clay. It is incredibly close to blasphemy to even suggest that God's freedom to do as He pleases according to the hidden purposes of His will is a servant to the pathetic efforts of a people who are His enemies until they are redeemed.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by bjonson:
John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Did you see that? We who are born again were not born OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH OR THE WILL OF MAN.

God is in charge. He is the Potter and we are the clay. It is incredibly close to blasphemy to even suggest that God's freedom to do as He pleases according to the hidden purposes of His will is a servant to the pathetic efforts of a people who are His enemies until they are redeemed.

Again, your argument hinges on the belief that "having a desire" to be saved, actually "Saves" the person, it doesn't.

God grants "salvation" only "IF" we have the "desire" to be saved,

"FAITH" is the "Desire", "Grace" is the salvation, the "TWO" go "hand in hand".

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, (FAITH) and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God only become the "potter" "AFTER" we are saved, not before, God doesn't "mold" Satan's children.

We'll all sinners, but even then, "SOME" are still in the church who say "lord, Lord" but have never been saved,

"Man's Depravity" isn't as "TOTAL" as Calvin claimed, and "SOME" do seek God, even if it is on their own terms, without being "lead by the spirit".

"CHOOSING", "Good/Evil", was given to Adam/Eve and it's still a "CHOICE" we have to make today, but the simple act of "choosing" doesn't "pay the wages of sin", that's "granted" only if/after we chose the "GOOD".

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[bjonson]

me4him,

Let's compare scripture with scripture:

Where does the faith and gift of repentance come from? Does it come from the sinful nature of fallen man? Here are some scriptures that show it all comes from God:

"God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins." (Acts 5:31, ESV)

"When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” " (Acts 11:18, ESV)

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48, ESV)

"One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul." (Acts 16:14, ESV)

"And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed," (Acts 18:27, ESV)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God," (Ephesians 2:8, ESV)

"not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:9, ESV)

"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake," (Philippians 1:29, ESV)

"correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth," (2 Timothy 2:25, ESV)

"and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. " (2 Timothy 2:26, ESV)

Grace and repentance are granted by the Lord to those Whom He has chosen. This is why Jesus said no one is ABLE to come to the Father unless they are drawn.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by bjonson:
I have to ask this of all those who are celebrated and magnifying man's "free will":

WHAT ABOUT GOD'S FREE WILL???

Why are we not willing to recongnize that if man truly has the freedom to thwart the will of God (which the anti-Calvinist says is that every person who has ever lived be saved), then man's will is therefore supplanting God's will? If this were possible, and it is not, then God is no longer sovereign.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1. God loved the "whole world".
2. Jesus didn't come to "condemn the world", but save it.
3. Jesus died for "ALL SINS".
4. As the sin of one condemned the world, the "Righteousnes of one" was offered (gift) to the world.
5. The "gospel" is a Witness to "All men".
6. God "willed" all men to be saved
7. Not "WILLING" that any should perish.

"HOWEVER", we do know that some do perish,

so is God's "WILL" being "ENFORCED" according to what Scripture says is/was "GOD'S WILL"???

If God is "sovereign" in this area, "WHY" does scripture proclaim the very opposite of what we see happening???

 

[bjonson]

me4him,

Sigh...

We've gone over 2 Pet. 3:9 before, ad naseum. We also have discussed 1 Ti. 2:4.

John 1:7 must be interpreted in light of seemingly contradictory passages such as John 8:47 and John 6:44. Not everyone CAN believe because Jesus very, very clearly said so! So, we need to understand John 1:7 in light of the limitations imposed by our Lord.

Romans 5:18 certainly doesn't teach universalism so we need to understand that the parallelism used in the word "all" must involve a different meaning within the verse. Verse 15 of that same chapter says God's grace was given to "many" and not "all." Hmmm, what do you suppose that means?

1 John 2:2 - the word "world" means mankind in general and not every person who has ever lived. As MacArthur says:

"for the whole world. This is a generic term, referring not to every single individual, but to mankind in general. Christ actually paid the penalty only for those who would repent and believe. A number of Scriptures indicate that Christ died for the world (John 1:29; 3:16; 6:51; 1 Tim. 2:6; Heb. 2:9). Most of the world will be eternally condemned to hell to pay for their own sins, so they could not have been paid for by Christ. The passages which speak of Christ’s dying for the whole world must be understood to refer to mankind in general (as in Titus 2:3,4). “World” indicates the sphere, the beings toward whom God seeks reconciliation and has provided propitiation. God has mitigated His wrath on sinners temporarily, by letting them live and enjoy earthly life (see note on 1 Tim. 4:10). In that sense, Christ has provided a brief, temporal propitiation for the whole world. But He actually satisfied fully the wrath of God eternally only for the elect who believe. Christ’s death in itself had unlimited and infinite value because He is Holy God. Thus His sacrifice was sufficient to pay the penalty for all the sins of all whom God brings to faith. But the actual satisfaction and atonement was made only for those who believe (cf. John 10:11,15; 17:9,20; Acts 20:28; Rom. 8:32,37; Eph. 5:25). The pardon for sin is offered to the whole world, but received only by those who believe (cf. 4:9,14; John 5:24). There is no other way to be reconciled to God."

MacArthur, J. J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed.) (1 Jn 2:2). Nashville: Word Pub.

 

[johnp.]

His strongest argument tonight, in my mind, for free-will, was the idea that God is sovereign, but that he limits his sovereignty to the point that he does not impose his will for salvation upon us.

I'm a bit short of time at the moment Joseph and haven't read the thread yet.

2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (Me4Him)

If He doesn't impose His will for salvation then He cannot be unwillinging for any to perish but must be willing for some to perish. That would be the conclusion I get. A free choice must mean that some will refuse no? Or the possibility would exist for some to refuse so He must be resigned and willing that man makes up his own mind. Therefore He is willing for some to perish.

john.

 

[IFB Mole]

"God is not slack (procrastinating) concerning his promise (the promise of His coming) as some men (the scoffers in verse 3) count slackness, but is long suffering (very patient) to usward (the usward is Peter and to whom the letter was written to: the Turkish Christians see 1 Peter.1) not willing that ANY (any of US-the saved; this is eternal security) should perish but that ALL (all of US - the saved.) should come to repentance."

How can a "saved" person come to repentance, they have already "repented"?

Repentance in this verse is interesting it is a present active indicative in the Greek so in other words a "continually active state of repentance" is what God wants of us. This is by definition sanctification. We - the saved - need to be in a continual state of repentance.

So expounded 2Peter 3:9 is this:

God is not procrastinating concerning the promise of his coming as the scoffers think procrastination is, but he is very patient to usward not willing that any of us should perish but that all of us should come to a continual state of repentance.

1 and 2 Peter were written to the same people the ELECT (the saved) in what today is modern day Turkey. It was written to saved people. Also keep in mind that we are reading someone else's mail. ALL the Epistles (letters) were written NOT TO US but to 1st century believers, so we MUST keep that in mind.

Each letter has ONE interpretation but many APPLICATIONS. That’s why this letter that wasn't written TO us was most certainly written FOR us. In an applicable sense Peter tells ALL Christians that God is sovereign, is is NOT delaying or slow or procrastinating concerning his second coming, He is coming again, he is not willing that ANY of US should perish - we are eternally secure in Christ and he wants ALL of US to come to a continual state of repentance - be ye holy and sanctified.

2Peter 3:9 is NOT universalism it is sovereignty and security and sanctification TO THE BELIEVER.

Most of the time 2 Peter 3:9 isn't even quoated correctly, generally only the first word "God", is quaoted, then the next 16 words are left out and then "is not willing that any whould perish but that all sould come to repentance" is quoated.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by bjonson:
me4him,

Sigh...

We've gone over 2 Pet. 3:9 before, ad naseum. We also have discussed 1 Ti. 2:4.

John 1:7 must be interpreted in light of seemingly contradictory passages such as John 8:47 and John 6:44. Not everyone CAN believe because Jesus very, very clearly said so! So, we need to understand John 1:7 in light of the limitations imposed by our Lord.

Romans 5:18 certainly doesn't teach universalism so we need to understand that the parallelism used in the word "all" must involve a different meaning within the verse. Verse 15 of that same chapter says God's grace was given to "many" and not "all." Hmmm, what do you suppose that means?

1 John 2:2 - the word "world" means mankind in general and not every person who has ever lived. As MacArthur says:

"for the whole world. This is a generic term, referring not to every single individual, but to mankind in general. Christ actually paid the penalty only for those who would repent and believe. A number of Scriptures indicate that Christ died for the world (John 1:29; 3:16; 6:51; 1 Tim. 2:6; Heb. 2:9).
MacArthur, J. J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed.) (1 Jn 2:2). Nashville: Word Pub.

If God "LOVED" the "WORLD" and Jesus didn't come to "CONDEMN" the "WORLD", and died for the sins of the "WORLD" that the "WORLD"... "MIGHT BE...saved,

"HOW" can you draw the conclusion that "ALL" doesn't mean "ALL"???

Do you know anything about "LAW"??

Judgement day is a "DAY IN COURT" for everyone, and the "COURT" will be conducted under the "Principles of Law".

Those "under the law" will be condemned, not because the "JUDGE" is "PREJUDICE", but because the "LAW" requires it.

Those "not under the law", can not be condemned "BY THE LAW", or the "JUDGE", they're "set free". (Saved)

Suppose "SOMEONE" offer to pay the "FINE" of what the law required to "FREE" everyone,

however the "JUDGE" only "picked and chose" certain ones to "INFORM" (Effectual calling) about this "OFFER", and withheld the information/opportunity from the "others".

We "Preach the gospel" to "PREVENT" this very thing from happening.

A "JUDGE" is "BOUND BY THE LAW" to administer the law, as the law requires, WITHOUT PREJUDICE toward "EITHER PARTY".

If the JUDGE is "PREJUDICE" (picking/chosing) whom he will find guilty/innocent, he is "VIOLATING THE LAW".

WIll God transgress his law and "SIN"

We Preach the gospel "FOR A WITNESS" in God's court so those "Condemned" can't say,

"YOU (judge) withheld that information/offer from me, If I had known, I wouldn't be "guilty",

"MY GUILTY is YOUR FAULT".

However since "God love the "WHOLE WORLD" and Jesus died for the sin of the whole world and the Gospel will be preached as a "WITNESS" to the whole world before the end comes, "NONE" can make the above statement.

God, as the "JUDGE", can't be "PREJUDICE" toward either party, His only duty is to enforce the law as the "LAW" requires, without any "Personal Predilection" involved.

Calvin's doctrine actually accuses God of operating a "kangaroo Court".

 

[bjonson]

Your comparison of our justice system to God Almighty and the secret counsel of His will is not convincing.

Who are you to say God is unjust in His electing some to eternal life? Note carefully what the Holy Spirit said through Paul:

"But who are you, o man, to answer back to God?"
--Romans 9:20a

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Man definitely has Free Will. The Bible says Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, I do not serve a God who will cast away a true repentent sinner.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by bjonson:
Your comparison of our justice system to God Almighty and the secret counsel of His will is not convincing.

Who are you to say God is unjust in His electing some to eternal life? Note carefully what the Holy Spirit said through Paul:

"But who are you, o man, to answer back to God?"
--Romans 9:20a

The "LAW" has the purpose, to show what is sin, who is guilty, who can pay the "Fine", and the "justification" to condemn/save.

Understand one thing, God doesn't condemn "ANYONE", the "LAW" condemns.

The "law" has been explained to all, (preached gospel/witness)

the "Choice" to remain under the law or not, is the "CHOICE" offer to us,

In Judgement, God will only administer the Law as it requires, in spite of his "WILL" that none perish.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Diggin nice to meet you.

...true repentent sinner...

A true repentent sinner would be born again because it is by grace that we are saved not by works and repentance is a work.

john.

 

[IFB Mole]

Diggn,

Man has a will but it is NOT free from sin, it is a WILLING bondservant of sin. It is free only within the bonds of sin. Sin reigns in a persons unregenerate will.

God will not cast out a repentent sinner,that's for sure, but in order for a person to be a "whosoever" God must FIRST regenerate his dead and sin-bonded will before they can repent. God is the initiator in salvation - not my "free will".

 

[Rhetorician]

"Diggin',"

If a sinner really does have "free will" as you assert, then try this:

Take the most vile inner thought sin or vile outer habit you have (whatever it may be); THEN JUST STOP IT!!!

Jesus said the one who commits sin is the slave of sin--did he not?

If you truly have a "free will" it should be very easy to do! True?

Why do you think that no one of us is able to keep New Year's Resolutions? It is because our "free will" is in bondage to our old sin natures?

Food for thought!

Grace and peace!

sdg!

rd

 

[partialrapture]

De 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Psalms 131:1 ¶ &lt;&lt;A Song of degrees of David.&gt;&gt; LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

When are we going to understand that God is well able to give man complete free will and yet still be in control.
Who can understand God's power?

Job 36:26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.

We all would do much better in our christain warfare if we just excepted both as truth and moved on.

May God bless the use of our minds after him.

 

[johnp.]

Hello partialrapture nice to meet you.

We all would do much better in our christain warfare if we just excepted both as truth and moved on.

It will be a sweet thing when minds are one and to live in peace with all men but we are commanded to contend for the truth that we have been entrusted with. Would you have us forsake a command of God for peace? The truth sold for peace?
Jude 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

One of the sides can't have the truth because they oppose each other completely.

ISA 6:9 He said, "Go and tell this people:
" `Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

ISA 6:10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

If we bore this in mind then we would have learnt patience and we would pray for each other because one of the sides are wrong and are to be contended with as per command. God's word will do the work but we must pray.

What do you think?

john.

 

[partialrapture]

Good comments johnp
I agree to contend, and some topics stir others up more, I can think of som e for me myself

I would ask though for the sharpening of my sword how can God be 3 in 1 or 1 but 3?
is that possible for our minds to compehend?
I see both free will taught in scipture as well as Gods control I therefore embrace both with no complications as read. God bless