A challenge for those who disagree with . . .

[37818]

. . . Christ truly present in His Last supper- (Eucharist)? . . .

". . . And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" -- Luke 22:19-22

The irregular churches collectively deny that Judas had partook of that first Eucharist.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

". . . And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!"

The irregular churches collectively deny that Judas had partook of that first Eucharist.

That answered nothing I asked, is Christ present in His memorial supper YES or NO? As for irregular this or that, get right with this fact, YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED but two stepped. As for Judas, he received his judgement. Now don't you be a sellout and answer? Is Christ truly present in His instituted supper, YES or NO ? " Let your yes be yes and your no , no anything other comes from the evil one".

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[OfLivingWaters]

Those who refuse to answer the prior post #142 , I have another question: Can that which is simply regular bread and wine , give life? And will you be raised to life or destruction by denying this life giving substance in the irregular bread and wine?
John 6:54
Jesus the Bread of Life
…53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.…
Matthew 26:25-27
The Last Supper
25Then Judas, who would betray Him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” Jesus answered, “You have said it yourself.” 26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, spoke a blessing and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is My body.” 27Then He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you 28This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
1 Corinthians 11:23-26
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: that the Lord Jesus, on the night He was betrayed, took bread, 24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you;a do this in remembrance of Me.” 25In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

1 Corinthians 11:27
Sharing in the Lord's Supper
…26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. 27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28Each one must examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.…
Or end up like a Judas eating unto judgement. The decree of this life giving bread and wine is established before the body was bruised and the blood was shed. Architectonic design. What is, is already decreed in the heavens and therefore is done !

Obviously this is irregular bread and wine. Because simple bread and wine has no power. When the Consecration, by a Holy anointed of the Lord is done it makes this bread and wine much more . For the Holy Spirit is with such a one. As with Paul, this authority is given to all believers. However, I will argue that the presbyter is a man. But women can consecrate if no holy anointed man is around. Because it is Christ within who does it. In Christ there is no Jew or Greek, male or female for His Spirit dwells in all. But the man who has a congregation, should be married but once, and his wife should not be divorced. If she dies before him, he should not remarry but remain unmarried. For he is to be married but once. Oh, so this also proves that St. Joseph was not married before. He would be in the spirit of Christ and the household that Christ chose to dwell in would have to be in His Spirit and those unspoken decrees of the future doctrine already exist with His presents there.

So with that said, it is clear that Apostolic Succession is passed on. But the unfortunate truth for hierarchy is, it is not just passed on to them. It is passed on to all believers, from the least to the greatest. And St. Paul commended women too for being caretakers of the faith. "All who do the will of My father in heaven, are my brother sister mother". Mothers are a reflection of His chosen mother, and are the nurtures of souls, bring forth the Male Child.
Hebrews 8:10-12
The New Covenant
…10For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds, and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people. 11No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.”…

This fulfills Jeremiah
Jeremiah 31:34
No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more."

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me--

1 John 2:27
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.


This is will annoy the father-in-laws. Jacob will have to flee with his two wives from the father -in -laws. I am not going to reveal the meaning of Jacob's story unless the Lord gives me the green light to.

 

[37818]

. . . is Christ present in His memorial supper YES or NO?

No because Jesus did not say, "This my body," in which He would have said that the bread was His body. Rather the text used the Greek verb, meaning He said it represented His body, "This is my body," as it is translated. This same verb is used to say, "God is light," 1 John 1:5, and "God is love," 1 John 4:7, but because God actually Spirit, that verb not needed and so is not used in, "God [is] Spirit," John 4:24. I do not expect you to accept this. But this is true, nevertheless.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

No because Jesus did not say, "This my body," in which He would have said that the bread was His body. Rather used the Greek verb, meaning it represented His body, "This is my body," as it is translated. This same verb is used to say, "God is light," 1 John 1:5, and "God is love," 1 John 4:7, but because God actually Spirit, that verb not needed and so is not used in, "God [is] Spirit," John 4:24. I do not expect you to accept this. But this is true, nevertheless.

Really? Obviously , we are not cannibals.It is transformed by faith and makes our flesh and blood like His through a process of regeneration .He lives within . That is why it was so hard for the disciples to comprehend. It is as He says GREEK ,HEBREW , ENGLISH (The Bread and Wine) represents His body and blood and is transformed by faith into His body and blood. So if it holds no real substantive value why the judgement?
sub·stan·tive
1.
having a firm basis in reality and therefore important, meaningful, or considerable.
There is no substantive value in your argument. No matter what the scales weigh heavily in my favor no matter what.
If it has no life giving importance once consecrated , then why the DECREE of importance?
John 6:53-55
Jesus the Bread of Life
…53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.…
Sounds like He is calling this real food and drink. And do not go there...... that He is speaking about His every word. It is clear you do not believe His every word or there would be no discussion. Here He is speaking of the instituted bread and wine which represents His REAL Body and Blood. A part- of His every word which is a COMMANDMENT which when believed in faith, becomes a mighty work in faith of which ,can not be anything other than an act of obedience. Faith and works are ONE as God is one. He said so ( Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.…)
It seems your real problem is FAITH, you do not believe what Christ says. You do not believe in His miraculous works. It is obviously a belief in faith. That faith is the faith of a child , that believes all He says without question or doubt. You and your buddies seem to be missing faith. That explains a lot.
Let's see your hoop jumping and two stepping ,teaching His Commands as least.
Matthew 5:19
19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

POINT: It is this simple ......did He teach that the instituted supper is necessary? Does He call it life....for those who partake? And those who partake in an unworthy manner, does He teach through His apostle ,that, that is to take in judgement?

Go take a walk. You people speak heretical garbage. The language is clear. It is important. Any obedience is LIFE, in and of itself . You can deny and question all you want. It makes no difference to your disobedience. Those who believe in His real presence out perform you either way. And those who act according to the commandments and believe, have His real presence within them . Where does it say he is not really present in scripture? The faithful are a representation of His Real Presents on earth is that just a representation with no real value? The Christ affect ! It affects the natural world all the time , even to touch the Hem of His garment, even if He used mud to give sight, we know it is simply His power. And that power transforms that bread and wine. Only one who does not have Him present within him would say contrary to what he clearly says, and can not Consecrate anything.

What is Consecration?
Consecration is the solemn dedication to a special purpose or service, usually religious. The word consecration literally means "association with the sacred". Persons, places, or things can be consecrated, and the term is used in various ways by different groups.


Seems the irregular churches that believe this, still out rank you who believes in nothing miraculous. You gag out a gnat and swallow a camel. They believe, you do not, who is better off?

What does His Last supper represent to you? His presents or something else? Be careful because just as we are called to examine our conscience before partaking, examine yours before speaking?

con·science
/ˈkän(t)SHəns/

Why Paul's warning if it is simply just bread and wine once consecrated?

noun
noun: conscience; plural noun: consciences
an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.
"he had a guilty conscience about his desires"
synonyms: sense of right and wrong, sense of right, moral sense, still small voice, inner voice, voice within;

 

[Adonia]

Wow! Talk about blanket condemnations! We're going to Hell because we are Baptists???? But so far on this thread, the Catholics have shown they know next to nothing about Baptist beliefs.

Our friend erred. Not one of us is in a position to judge who is or who is not in God's hands. I am surprised at this - only God knows, all of us are just here relying on His mercy.

I take exception to your second statement, we do know a lot about Baptist belief's which is why we are not Baptists. I personally have nothing against Baptists, you are good people who love the Lord and I have worshipped with you folks many a time.

 

[Adonia]

No because Jesus did not say, "This my body," in which He would have said that the bread was His body. Rather the text used the Greek verb, meaning He said it represented His body, "This is my body," as it is translated. This same verb is used to say, "God is light," 1 John 1:5, and "God is love," 1 John 4:7, but because God actually Spirit, that verb not needed and so is not used in, "God [is] Spirit," John 4:24. I do not expect you to accept this. But this is true, nevertheless.

It is only true to you as you deem to interpret those words. The Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church does not see it as you see it in the same way. I will continue to believe them and their teaching about it over you.

 

[Dave G]

That answered nothing I asked, is Christ present in His memorial supper YES or NO?

No.
But He is present where two or three believers assemble in His name ( Matthew 18:20 ).

Is Christ truly present in His instituted supper, YES or NO ?

He's present, not in the "elements", but in the people ( Colossians 1:27 ).
He told the 11, "This do in remembrance of me." ( Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20, 1 Corinthians 11:23-25 )

 

[Reformed]

No.
But He is present where two or three believers assemble in His name ( Matthew 18:20 ).

Dave,

Please look at the context of Matthew 18. The topic is church discipline not Christian assembly. Are we to suppose Jesus is not present if one or four believers are present? That is why Christian assembly does not fit the context.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Dave G]

Not one of us is in a position to judge who is or who is not in God's hands.

" Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." ( 1 Timothy 6:5 )

" Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." ( 2 Timothy 3:5 )

" A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;" ( Titus 3:10 )

Believers are commanded to test all things ( 1 Thessalonians 5:21 ), reject heretics ( those who try to divide the body of Christ with false doctrines ) and mark and avoid false teachers ( Romans 16:17 ).

So, yes, believers are in a position to judge who is or who is not saved.
But it should be done very carefully.

 

[Dave G]

Dave,

Please look at the context of Matthew 18. The topic is church discipline not Christian assembly. Are we to suppose Jesus is not present if one or four believers are present? That is why Christian assembly does not fit the context.

Well, for years I've tried to find a fellowship with people who are at least willing to take God at His word...instead, all I find are people who can't understand it, won't believe it, or both.
I also find worldly professing Christians everywhere.

Two of us get together every weekend, and edify one another...no one else misses us.
So, Matthew 18:20 fits my situation very well.
We take comfort in the fact that we two "lively stones" are a "temple" unto itself.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but the verse I take literally, for some reason...if only to help explain why there's so few in my area that even care about the Lord.

 

[Adonia]

" Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." ( 1 Timothy 6:5 )

" Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." ( 2 Timothy 3:5 )

" A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;" ( Titus 3:10 )

Believers are commanded to test all things ( 1 Thessalonians 5:21 ), reject heretics ( those who try to divide the body of Christ with false doctrines ) and mark and avoid false teachers ( Romans 16:17 ).

So, yes, believers are in a position to judge who is or who is not saved.

You do what you want, I will leave judging to God. It's a good thing that Jesus didn't take your line, what with Him hanging out with tax collectors, prostitutes, and drunkards and all - none of us would have had a chance if He had acted all high and mighty.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

No.
But He is present where two or three believers assemble in His name ( Matthew 18:20 ).

He's present, not in the "elements", but in the people ( Colossians 1:27 ).
He told the 11, "This do in remembrance of me." ( Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20, 1 Corinthians 11:23-25 )

No kidding . We are discussing this:
John 6:53-55
Jesus the Bread of Life
…53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.…

No matter what ,your stance is not supported. Adonia puts up with you and yours falsehoods far too easily. Your doctrine is in error. Christ is clear, you are against Truth. Mince and dice all you want and divide the scriptures like those who divided Christ's garments.CHRIST IS CLEAR:54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.

He is present there just as He is in the written word, WHICH IS LIVING!

 

[Dave G]

You do what you want, I will leave judging to God.

I'll do my best to do what He tells me to.

If you don't wish to obey Him, that is between you and Him.

It's a good thing that Jesus didn't take your line, what with Him hanging out with tax collectors, prostitutes, and drunkards and all - none of us would have had a chance if He had acted all high and mighty.

He did "take my line"...where do you think the passages I listed above, came from?
His Spirit-inspired word.
So, if His word tells believers to do something, then He is telling believers to do it.

In addition,
The tax collectors, prostitutes and poor, blind and needy were His sheep, at least most of them.
The Pharisees who did not know Him and did not believe on Him?

He condemned them for misusing their offices, for being hypocrites and for being of their father, the devil.

Back to my point:
His word tells believers these very important things:

" Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 and what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 and what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
18 and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." ( 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 ).

Biblical separation isn't easy for the believer, but it is important.

 

[Dave G]

No matter what ,your stance is not supported. Adonia puts up with you and yours falsehoods far too easily. Your doctrine is in error. Christ is clear, you are against Truth. Mince and dice all you want and divide the scriptures like those who divided Christ's garments.CHRIST IS CLEAR:54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.

It's a symbol of His broken body and blood that was shed for the believer, not the actual elements.
You take it literally, I understand it figuratively.

We as believers are remembering His deeds on the cross for us, by partaking in the command to remember Him through the bread and wine...not actually eating His body and drinking His blood.

He is present there just as He is in the written word, WHICH IS LIVING!

He is present in the bodies of God's children through the indwelling Spirit.
Their bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost.

The bread, wine and His word are meaningless unless one is saved, and the elements are lifeless examples of a precious sacrifice that He made on the cross for our sins, as believers.
They are strictly a remembrance, and a very serious and somber one, to those that truly know Him.

But in the end, that wine and that bread are just wine and bread.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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