A challenge for those who disagree with . . .

[37818]

So you would have to admit then that YOUR interpretation IS fallible, that indeed you could be wrong, is that correct?

Yes. But it is my understanding of what is God's word would be inerrant and infallable sinse God is inerrant and infallable. And any church, made up of men, as men would be subject to the possibility of error and fallability.

Now the whole reason I am a professing Christian is on account of the 66 book Bible. Now it has been passed down and copied by fallable men. Translated by fallable men too.

Now there is a phenomenon of the self authentication of the written word of God in which I came to believe in God's Christ who died (Romans 5:8) for my sins and rose from the dead (Romans 10:9). I asking according to the promise (Romans 10:13) changed my life (2 Corinthians 5:17). And I came to know I posseses eternal life now (1 John 5:12-13) with the hope of immortality in the resurrection when Christ returns (Romans 8:23; 1 John 3:2). And in this, God cannot lie (Titus 1:2). Now it was not that church where I came to know this that was infallable, but the word of God given through the translation used that enlightened me.

 

[Adonia]

Untrue. The Bible (KJB) teaches Salvation by God's Grace alone through Faith alone. It's all the matter of definitions of words. When 'Faith alone' is stated, it is not that faith which is dead, but the living faith - James 2, etc. Real faith is defined by scripture, not defined as simply, 'I mentally ascent to such an such idea'.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Living Faith is seen in those verses, as it is also here, in these:

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Obviously you have missed many of the scripture verses which state otherwise. No one denies that faith is needed, but faith alone? No. Faith goes hand in hand with how a Christian lives his/her life. Having faith is just the beginning.

It is the same with the "Sola Scriptura" claim and the "Once Saved Always Saved" mantra. This is error on the part of those who adhere to such things. If Jesus could easily allow the thief on the Cross into heaven, He can just as easily deny entry into heaven to any one of us on his word alone - He is after all God.

 

[37818]

Which is something that does not exist. Initially we believe in Christ as Savior through faith, but that is just the beginning of the salvation process. This is something that continues on throughout our lives, we are active participants in our own salvation, not just bystanders.

The words "are saved" speaks of a current possession (Ephesians 2:5; Ephesians 2:8-9). To "have eternal life" speaks of a current possession (1 John 5:12-13; John 3:15). This I understand is from knowing God Himself (John 17:3; John 14:6). And that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

 

[37818]

Explain your version to me.

Grace does not involve the works. Romans 11:6 argument. Ephesians 2:8-9, ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, . . ." So in that context, "through faith," is alone, receiving salvation as a gift. Free from works (Romans 4:4-5). Now after receiving the gift comes works, in which faith is not alone, Ephesians 2:10; James 2:14-24! Works after genuinely being saved, will be the evidence of this (2 Corinthians 5:17).

 

[OfLivingWaters]

The words "are saved" speaks of a current possession (Ephesians 2:5; Ephesians 2:8-9). To "have eternal life" speaks of a current possession (1 John 5:12-13; John 3:15). This I understand is from knowing God Himself (John 17:3; John 14:6). And that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

Why don't you do yourself a favor and stop taking a verse from here and a verse from there, to make your argument seem legit. Discussion without full context is just pretext.

Obviously current possession does not always mean continued. It is possible to fall from grace. It would be best to remain humble . It is true that God knows for sure if one will complete his or her race. However, election is not for one to know for sure. For clearly Judas was an elected apostle and clearly he tasted the heavenly gifts. Clearly Christ knew he was a betrayer, yet let him come in and taste those gifts. What do you think the lesson is here? I would say that it is .....God knows us better than we know ourselves. And what may be , may not be, and what appears as service to, could just be service to oneself. So for sure you can not say you will not loose salvation. To say that,is to believe in your own strength. No doubt, if one continues to hold on to Christ, Christ will prevail. So it is not His strength that is in question. When it comes to ones own........that is another thing.

37818 said: "Yes. But it is my understanding of what is God's word would be inerrant and infallable sinse God is inerrant and infallable. And any church, made up of men, as men would be subject to the possibility of error and fallability."

OLW says: If you are fallible in the matters of God, should you teach? Your understanding is your understanding, and it is fallible. of course God's word is infallible. One should not try to interpret it without the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 3:15-17
Final Exhortations
…15Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing.…

It is pretty clear that there is a penalty in false interpretation of the scriptures.

"37818" said: Now the whole reason I am a professing Christian is on account of the 66 book Bible. Now it has been passed down and copied by fallable men. Translated by fallable men too.

OLW says: NO KIDDING!

37818 said: "Now there is a phenomenon of the self authentication of the written word of God in which I came to believe in God's Christ who died (Romans 5:8) for my sins and rose from the dead (Romans 10:9). I asking according to the promise (Romans 10:13) changed my life (2 Corinthians 5:17). And I came to know I posseses eternal life now (1 John 5:12-13) with the hope of immortality in the resurrection when Christ returns (Romans 8:23; 1 John 3:2). And in this, God cannot lie (Titus 1:2). Now it was not that church where I came to know this that was infallable, but the word of God given through the translation used that enlightened me.

"
OLW says:You don't say.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Obviously you have missed ...

You obviously didn't read or look at a single thing I wrote.

 

[Alofa Atu]

The words "are saved" speaks of a current possession (Ephesians 2:5; Ephesians 2:8-9). To "have eternal life" speaks of a current possession (1 John 5:12-13; John 3:15). This I understand is from knowing God Himself (John 17:3; John 14:6). And that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

Yes, the "eternal life" is "in" the Son:

1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Thus a person can be lost, by being outside of Him, by removing oneself from Him.

Ephesians 2:5 (etc) is Paul explaining the process (its why it is in parentheses, vs 5).

Salvation is not merely a moment. There is a beginning and an ending. A born again, and a growing up into the fulness.

 

[Dave G]

If Jesus could easily allow the thief on the Cross into heaven, He can just as easily deny entry into heaven to any one of us on his word alone - He is after all God.

I agree.
He does deny entry into Heaven on His word alone.

He does the will of the Father ( John 6:38 ), and His Father wills that He give eternal life to as many as He has given to the Son ( John 6:37, John 6:65, John 17:2 ).
As many as believe on Him ( John 6:40 ).

Jesus is God...and as God, He gives eternal life as a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).

Thus a person can be lost, by being outside of Him, by removing oneself from Him.

" And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." ( John 6:39 ).

I know of no one who is more powerful than God.
God's will versus man's will;

He wins, every time.

 

[37818]

Why don't you do yourself a favor and stop taking a verse from here and a verse from there, to make your argument seem legit. Discussion without full context is just pretext.

You do not know what you are talking about.
If you did, you would have answered what I had cited as being false in my doing what you accused me of, which you did not.

The words "are saved" speaks of a current possession (Ephesians 2:5; Ephesians 2:8-9). To "have eternal life" speaks of a current possession (1 John 5:12-13; John 3:15). This I understand is from knowing God Himself (John 17:3; John 14:6). And that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

Obviously current possession does not always mean continued. It is possible to fall from grace

Again, you do not know what you are taking about.

 

[John of Japan]

Why don't you do yourself a favor and stop taking a verse from here and a verse from there, to make your argument seem legit. Discussion without full context is just pretext.

Obviously current possession does not always mean continued.

Actually, in this case it does. In the passages he refers to in Ephesians 3:5 and 3:8-9 ("for by grace are ye saved"), the word "saved" is in the Greek perfect tense. The verbal aspect of the perfect tense in Greek is that of something in the past, the results of which continue to the present. So in Ephesians 2, the teaching is that not only were you saved when you believed in Christ, the results continue. They continue because we cannot save ourselves. Only God can save, and what He does is forever. Humans cannot change it.

Eccl. 3:14--"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him."

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8:38-39).

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Actually, in this case it does. In the passages he refers to in Ephesians 3:5 and 3:8-9 ("for by grace are ye saved"), the word "saved" is in the Greek perfect tense. The verbal aspect of the perfect tense in Greek is that of something in the past, the results of which continue to the present. So in Ephesians 2, the teaching is that not only were you saved when you believed in Christ, the results continue. They continue because we cannot save ourselves. Only God can save, and what He does is forever. Humans cannot change it.

Eccl. 3:14--"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him."

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8:38-39).

Simply saying you nor 37818 knows. And of course nothing can separate us by force, for no one can pluck us out of God's hand. As long as one remains in the love of God in Christ Jesus, we are never separated from God. However, my point is many doctrines have been devised outside of that love, and many think they are serving Christ but are only serving self, just as Judas. I know Judas did not see what was coming for himself nor what he turned out to be revealed as, and neither do you. God may very well show you as NOT predestined. "Many are called but few are chosen".

And from many of the doctrines adhered to by Baptist, it seems clear to me, you are not in God's hands.

 

[utilyan]

Grace does not involve the works. Romans 11:6 argument. Ephesians 2:8-9, ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, . . ." So in that context, "through faith," is alone, receiving salvation as a gift. Free from works (Romans 4:4-5). Now after receiving the gift comes works, in which faith is not alone, Ephesians 2:10; James 2:14-24! Works after genuinely being saved, will be the evidence of this (2 Corinthians 5:17).

I think we just hopping around between God's motive to save, his actual intention to save, and the actual goal.

God's motive to save anyone is MERCY, Grace takes place. God has countless means for example by means of the Gospel, Faith comes by hearing the Gospel.

A person still must employ GOOD WORKS, which are all God given, If WORK is not GOD given might as well call it evil work, cause only God is the source of GOOD WORKS. For example a person does the GOOD WORK of even hearing the gospel.

You get two guys one refused to hear the gospel the other agrees to hear the gospel. I would think the one who agrees to hear the gospel has better opportunity to actually develop faith.

Scripture says even works PERFECT FAITH, that is a broken, distorted, or imperfect faith is not going to help you.

1 Corinthians 13 states you can have faith that moves mountains if it does not have LOVE it is nothing.

Breathing isn't just evidence that you are alive, If you are not breathing you are dead.

The analogy given in scripture is faith is a body and the works is the spirit. A body without the spirit is a dead body. Not having a spirit is more than just detectable evidence no spirit means it is dead period.

If you can show evidence of someone who HATES GOD has faith and is saved then this idea that works are not necessary is easily proven to be true.

Its not going to happen the GOOD WORK of LOVING GOD is required.

This whole debacle is from people trying to one up each other in false humility in that I'm truly relying on God alone in true Monergism while point at and VILIFY the other guy and saying he is Palagian who thinks he doesn't need God to be saved.

 

[37818]

Thus a person can be lost, by being outside of Him, by removing oneself from Him.

Not according to, ". . . neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. . . ." -- John 10:28. The "neither shall any" includes self.

 

[37818]

A person still must employ GOOD WORKS, . . .

Which means you do not understand grace. I cannot make you understand what you fail to understand. It is not in my power. If one must work to either get or keep a gift, it is not a gift, it is not grace.

 

[John of Japan]

Simply saying you nor 37818 knows. And of course nothing can separate us by force, for no one can pluck us out of God's hand. As long as one remains in the love of God in Christ Jesus, we are never separated from God.

You are saying that we ourselves can take ourselves out of the love of God, and therefore be eternally lost. That's not what the verses I quoted say. They say that no created being--that includes us--can take us away from God's love. If I could take myself from God's love, I'd be more powerful than God!

However, my point is many doctrines have been devised outside of that love, and many think they are serving Christ but are only serving self, just as Judas. I know Judas did not see what was coming for himself nor what he turned out to be revealed as, and neither do you. God may very well show you as NOT predestined. "Many are called but few are chosen".

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).

You know, you have still not rebutted my reference to the Greek perfect aspect in Eph. 2--nor has anyone else. Care to take a whack at it?

And from many of the doctrines adhered to by Baptist, it seems clear to me, you are not in God's hands.

Wow! Talk about blanket condemnations! We're going to Hell because we are Baptists???? But so far on this thread, the Catholics have shown they know next to nothing about Baptist beliefs.

 

[37818]

. . . the GOOD WORK of LOVING GOD is required.

Which only those whom God has saved without the merit of work can do, 1 John 4:7.

 

[utilyan]

Which means you do not understand grace. I cannot make you understand what you fail to understand. It is not in my power. If one must work to either get or keep a gift, it is not a gift, it is not grace.

If someone mails you a bunch of pornography as a gift then it truly is yours correct?

 

[37818]

Some things Jesus had said,

. . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. . . . -- John 5:24.

. . . He that is of God heareth God's words: . . . -- John 8:47.

. . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . . -- John 10:27-28.

. . . Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. . . . -- John 18:37.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

You are saying that we ourselves can take ourselves out of the love of God, and therefore be eternally lost. That's not what the verses I quoted say. They say that no created being--that includes us--can take us away from God's love. If I could take myself from God's love, I'd be more powerful than God!

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).

You know, you have still not rebutted my reference to the Greek perfect aspect in Eph. 2--nor has anyone else. Care to take a whack at it?


Wow! Talk about blanket condemnations! We're going to Hell because we are Baptists???? But so far on this thread, the Catholics have shown they know next to nothing about Baptist beliefs.

Actually, in this case it does. In the passages he refers to in Ephesians 3:5 and 3:8-9 ("for by grace are ye saved"), the word "saved" is in the Greek perfect tense. The verbal aspect of the perfect tense in Greek is that of something in the past, the results of which continue to the present. So in Ephesians 2, the teaching is that not only were you saved when you believed in Christ, the results continue. They continue because we cannot save ourselves. Only God can save, and what He does is forever. Humans cannot change it.

Eccl. 3:14--"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him."

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8:38-39).

How about this, I'll run around the mulberry bush with you as I have with so many others in here concerning their twisting of scriptures to fit their own narrative.
First question: Is water baptism a necessary part of salvation and if so, is immersion the only means by which it should be done?

Second question: Is Christ truly present in His Last supper- (Eucharist)? If no- show me with scripture how that is not so(how He is not present) .

Third question: Is Mother Mary included in the (Confessing) of 1John4 concerning the Incarnation?
As for the Greek this or that, first answer these simple base questions concerning the faith then I will address your loose understanding of the Greek and I will add the Hebrew too.

 

[37818]

Which means you do not understand grace. I cannot make you understand what you fail to understand. It is not in my power. If one must work to either get or keep a gift, it is not a gift, it is not grace.

If someone mails you a bunch of pornography as a gift then it truly is yours correct?

Matthew 12:25,
". . . And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, . . .for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. . . ." -- Matthew 12:34.

Matthew 15:18, ". . . But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. . . ."