A challenge for those who disagree with . . .

[37818]

1 Timothy 3:15

". . . But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. . . ." Born again believers make up the church, the body of Christ, Christ who is the truth. Of whom they are being the ground of.

1 Peter 3:21

You cannot explain what you do not correctly understand.

1 Peter 3:20-21, ". . . eight souls were saved by water.. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us . . .

. . . (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: . . ."

Believers, as an anti-type of Noah and his family being literally saved by the flood, believers as an anti-type [not literally by water] are now saved. How was Noah and his family saved by water?

 

[John of Japan]

And, we do not find in the writings of the early church ANYONE who believes baptism is just symbolic.

This post is misleading. There were quite a few church fathers who believed that baptism was not necessary for salvation. See Early Church Fathers on Baptism and Salvation | CARM.org

Again, early church fathers did not advocate "baptizing" (immersing them, like the Greek Orthodox) or "sprinkling" babies. See The First Baptist Theologian: Tertullian of Carthage (c.160 - c.225).

So the whole Catholic idea of sprinkling babies (or anyone else) came along much later. The early church fathers used the Greek word for "immerse" instead of any word for "sprinkle."

 

[utilyan]

". . . But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. . . ." Born again believers make up the church, the body of Christ, Christ who is the truth. Of whom they are being the ground of.


1 Peter 3:20-21, ". . . eight souls were saved by water.. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us . . .

. . . (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: . . ."

Believers, as an anti-type of Noah and his family being literally saved by the flood, believers as an anti-type [not literally by water] are now saved. How was Noah and his family saved by water?

We are the born again believers. The CHURCH is the authority. Jesus Christ is the head of the church.

That is why the church is infallible, always right, and the AUTHORITY.

 

[utilyan]

". . . But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. . . ." Born again believers make up the church, the body of Christ, Christ who is the truth. Of whom they are being the ground of.


1 Peter 3:20-21, ". . . eight souls were saved by water.. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us . . .

. . . (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: . . ."

Believers, as an anti-type of Noah and his family being literally saved by the flood, believers as an anti-type [not literally by water] are now saved. How was Noah and his family saved by water?

How was Noah and his family saved by water?

The water destroyed and washed away all that is evil. As does the water of baptism when it washes away all your sins.

 

[37818]

We are the born again believers. The CHURCH is the authority. Jesus Christ is the head of the church.

That is why the church is infallible, always right, and the AUTHORITY.

No, God alone is infallible.

 

[37818]

How was Noah and his family saved by water?

The water destroyed and washed away all that is evil. As does the water of baptism when it washes away all your sins.

You got it half right. Nowhere does the word of God teach water baptism washes away sins. ". . . (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: . . ." ". . . even so we also should walk in newness of life. . . ." -- Romans 6:4.

 

[John of Japan]

How was Noah and his family saved by water?

The water destroyed and washed away all that is evil. As does the water of baptism when it washes away all your sins.

You are assuming that the only definition of "saved" is spiritual. Actually, the Greek word for "saved" in 1 Peter 3:20 is not even the word for "saved from sin" (sozo) in the rest of the Bible. It is diasozo, which means "bring safely through, save, rescue" (Friberg lexicon). It is used 7 other times in the NT, and never means "saved from sin," bu only physical rescue or healing.

Therefore, sorry, but you are wrong. 1 Peter 3:20 is not talking about Noah or anyone else being saved from sin.

 

[utilyan]

No, God alone is infallible.

Except when he says the church is the authority, right?

The problem is you kicked God out your meaning of CHURCH.

Whereas GOD is the common denominator and most fundamental meaning of the WORD CHURCH in my meaning.

When I say CHURCH and you SAY CHURCH two totally different things.


When I say Church THERE IS JESUS CHRIST, Church is PERFECT, CHURCH has authority.


When you say CHURCH Jesus is not there, its some book club, putting in an application to join Jesus's club.


When Jesus Commands anything, THE CHURCH HAS SPOKEN.

 

[utilyan]

You are assuming that the only definition of "saved" is spiritual. Actually, the Greek word for "saved" in 1 Peter 3:20 is not even the word for "saved from sin" (sozo) in the rest of the Bible. It is diasozo, which means "bring safely through, save, rescue" (Friberg lexicon). It is used 7 other times in the NT, and never means "saved from sin," bu only physical rescue or healing.

Therefore, sorry, but you are wrong. 1 Peter 3:20 is not talking about Noah or anyone else being saved from sin.

Can you please quote where I said noah saved from sin?


I said -->The water destroyed and washed away all that is evil.


"saved" is spiritual."

A pet peeve of mine is adding religious sounding adjectives to make different classes and categories of words.

So God loves you, but God loves me SPIRITUALLY. Thats all nonsense. He loves you period. You get saved then you are saved period.

You got Faith then you got faith......SAVING faith.

 

[37818]

Except when he says the church is the authority, right?

The problem is you kicked God out your meaning of CHURCH.

Whereas GOD is the common denominator and most fundamental meaning of the WORD CHURCH in my meaning.

When I say CHURCH and you SAY CHURCH two totally different things.


When I say Church THERE IS JESUS CHRIST, Church is PERFECT, CHURCH has authority.


When you say CHURCH Jesus is not there, its some book club, putting in an application to join Jesus's club.


When Jesus Commands anything, THE CHURCH HAS SPOKEN.

I do not think you know what you are talking about. I am sure you think you do. Can you give the explanation why Christians from the reading the Bible believe salvation in Christ alone is by God's grace alone through faith alone?

 

[utilyan]

I do not think you know what you are talking about. I am sure you think you do. Can you give the explanation why Christians from the reading the Bible believe salvation in Christ alone is by God's grace alone through faith alone?

Sure. Do you want the bible verses? You only want 3 out the 5 Solas? Like you want me to tell you what you WANT to hear?

Christ.

Acts 4
12“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV).

Grace.

Ephesians 2

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it isthe gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Faith.

Galatians 3
11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”



Brother the attacks on my faith is going to be matters of misrepresentation. And because we stubbornly hold to what scripture says. We are very legalistic down to the details and SMART ALECK when people start declaring ABSOLUTES.

The devil is in the details, its when the very details start chopping off good things or adding bad things we step in.

When it comes to the church your line of argument should have said Yes the CHURCH is infallible, but its not YOUR church, the end. Instead you kind of threw away the baby with the bathwater.

 

[John of Japan]

Can you please quote where I said noah saved from sin?


I said -->The water destroyed and washed away all that is evil.


"saved" is spiritual."

A pet peeve of mine is adding religious sounding adjectives to make different classes and categories of words.

So God loves you, but God loves me SPIRITUALLY. Thats all nonsense. He loves you period. You get saved then you are saved period.

You got Faith then you got faith......SAVING faith.

You've lost me here. Is not "evil" sin? Or what do you mean by "evil"?

And what adjectives did I add?

And what are you talking about when you say "loves spiritually"? I did not say that.

I would appreciate it if you would answer the exegetical points I've made.

 

[37818]

Sure. Do you want the bible verses? You only want 3 out the 5 Solas? Like you want me to tell you what you WANT to hear?

Christ.

Acts 4
12“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV).

Grace.

Ephesians 2

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it isthe gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Faith.

Galatians 3
11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”



Brother the attacks on my faith is going to be matters of misrepresentation. And because we stubbornly hold to what scripture says. We are very legalistic down to the details and SMART ALECK when people start declaring ABSOLUTES.

The devil is in the details, its when the very details start chopping off good things or adding bad things we step in.

When it comes to the church your line of argument should have said Yes the CHURCH is infallible, but its not YOUR church, the end. Instead you kind of threw away the baby with the bathwater.

So am I to understand you agree with the 5 solas? You really did not explain the reason for believing salvation through faith alone.

 

[utilyan]

So am I to understand you agree with the 5 solas? You really did not explain the reason for believing salvation through faith alone.

I understand them. I don't agree to all the Solas, and it depends on how they are defined.


I can accept "FAITH ALONE" under the terms the GOOD WORKS Love God and Neighbor is packaged in there.

We Catholics are very picky about the fine writing and details.

For example Sola Scriptura -Scripture alone is the only infallible source of divine revelation and the final authority for matters of faith and practice.

The only reason we don't accept it, Scripture doesn't state this.

Personally I would not have an objection to ADD the rule in, like lets have a council, call the holy spirit over and WRITE new scripture.

But because it is not taught not implicitly nor explicitly, I can't agree to this.

If you have a line that teaches it, be glad to hear it.



Faith Alone there is a misunderstanding among us as to "WORKS OF THE LAW".

In terms of God's MOTIVATION. We believe there is NO qualifying factor it doesn't matter what works or faith you have, God is motivated to save a person by HIS MERCY. And then there is disagreements between the quantity of mercy. Some folks pressume the normal is have ZERO mercy and surprise God has some, While we feel God loves everyone His mercy and OFFER of salvation is universally extended but not universally accepted.

Now far as the quality goal for born again christian. We need Faith, We also need the Command Love God and Love neighbor.
A Faith devoid of LOVE is dis-inflated, not saving.

Other points of clarification. We believe everyone in heaven is ELECT. We have no problem with the paradox of predestination and free will.

The knee jerk reaction to reading this is typically misrepresentation so please review these 3 rules carefully.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

If you read those three things and have an objection. i'd like to hear it. Thanks for being patient with me.

 

[37818]

I can accept "FAITH ALONE" under the terms the GOOD WORKS Love God and Neighbor is packaged in there.

But then that is not salvation by God's grace alone through faith alone.

A Faith devoid of LOVE is dis-inflated, not saving.

1 John 4:7.

. . . have no problem with the paradox of predestination and free will.

Me neither. But you well not find the will of men called free either.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

If you read those three things and have an objection. i'd like to hear it. Thanks for being patient with me.

Well those arguments seem true to me without calling them canons I, II, III. If there is some other point of them I should dissagree with I missed it.

You do know there is a difference between "faith alone" and "by grace alone through faith alone?"

 

[Adonia]

No, God alone is infallible.

So you would have to admit then that YOUR interpretation IS fallible, that indeed you could be wrong, is that correct?

We believe that God and the Church here on earth are inseparable. Our interpretations are from the whole Church, through all the centuries, not individually and from one period of time. The Pope does not make these determinations by himself, things are done in concert with the other Bishop's in synods and councils.

 

[Adonia]

But then that is not salvation by God's grace alone through faith alone.

Which is something that does not exist. Initially we believe in Christ as Savior through faith, but that is just the beginning of the salvation process. This is something that continues on throughout our lives, we are active participants in our own salvation, not just bystanders.

 

[utilyan]

But then that is not salvation by God's grace alone through faith alone.

1 John 4:7.
Me neither. But you well not find the will of men called free either.

Well those arguments seem true to me without calling them canons I, II, III. If there is some other point of them I should dissagree with I missed it.

You do know there is a difference between "faith alone" and "by grace alone through faith alone?"

Explain your version to me.

 

[Alofa Atu]

... Initially we believe in Christ as Savior through faith, but that is just the beginning of the salvation process. This is something that continues on throughout our lives, we are active participants in our own salvation, not just bystanders.

Now, if you only understood, the part about 'salvation (Matthew 1:21) from sin (1 John 3:4; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6, Exodus 20:1-17, 20:8-11)' and not in it (Romans 6:15, 7:7). It even includes salvation from man-made righteousness (Romans 10:3; Philippians 3:9) and 'traditions of men' (Matthew 15:3; Mark 7:9) which violate God's own commandments/Law, such as found here under Rome's "Traditional Catechetical Formula"- Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments

 

[Alofa Atu]

Which is something that does not exist. ...

Untrue. The Bible (KJB) teaches Salvation by God's Grace alone through Faith alone. It's all the matter of definitions of words. When 'Faith alone' is stated, it is not that faith which is dead, but the living faith - James 2, etc. Real faith is defined by scripture, not defined as simply, 'I mentally ascent to such an such idea'.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Living Faith is seen in those verses, as it is also here, in these:

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: