A challenge for those who disagree with . . .

[utilyan]

So you say. But I'm arguing from the grammar of the sentence. If you wish to call my conclusion idiotic, fine, but that's not an argument. Please show me exactly how my conclusion is idiotic. A passive tense in Greek or English must have an agent: "I was baptized...." Okay, by who? The priest? If baptism saves you, and you were baptized by the priest, then he is the instrument, the agent of your salvation. That is not only proper grammar, it's a logical syllogism.


The sprinkling of water on the forehead is not "baptism" as per the meaning of the Greek word. I could give you quotes from any of my many Greek-English lexicons to prove that. Here are several from my BibleWorks software:

Friberg: "strictly dip, immerse in water"
Thayer: "properly, to dip repeatedly, to immerge, submerge"
LS classical Greek: "to dip in or under water"

So if you have merely been sprinkled and not immersed, you have not been baptized. Christ gave us the Great Commission, showing baptism as vital. And He used the Greek word I'm defining here. So if the church sprinkles but does not immerse, it is not obeying Christ.

SO is it a 3 second rule in baptism? Fully atomically immersed in water with no air bubbles? Maybe distilled water?

I'd love to hear the details. If the human was the size of a drop of water would the sprinkle be an immersion?

Oh wait you guys think the whole thing is symbolic and fake anyways right?

 

[John of Japan]

SO is it a 3 second rule in baptism? Fully atomically immersed in water with no air bubbles? Maybe distilled water?

I'd love to hear the details. If the human was the size of a drop of water would the sprinkle be an immersion?

Oh wait you guys think the whole thing is symbolic and fake anyways right?

I suggest you ponder the huge semantic difference between "symbolic" and "fake."

 

[John of Japan]

What, you don't believe in sacred things like marriage and ordination? Well I do, they all make sense to me.

Please remember what "sacrament" means. This is from a Catholic dictionary: " A sensible sign, instituted by Jesus Christ, by which invisible grace and inward sanctification are communicated to the soul" (Modern Catholic Dictionary - Bad Filename - Access Denied). Evangelicals, including Baptists, do not believe that any grace or sanctification are imparted by marriage and ordination. Baptists have two "ordinances" (not sacraments): baptism and the Lord's Supper.

So of course I believe in marriage and ordination and most of the other things Catholics and others call "sacraments." I simply don't believe they impart grace. The Bible nowhere says that about marriage or the laying on of hands.

Of course the thief didn't need any of them, he had God Incarnate Himself opening the door to heaven for him that very day. Any sacrament would be irrelevant in this instance.

I believe that when I accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior as a little boy, "God incarnate Himself opened the door to Heaven," just as He did withe thief on the cross. Christ, being God, is omnipresent. He was there with me, and accepted me into His family. Any sacrament was irrelevant. I didn't need any helps to grace, since I had Jesus Himself.

I think we are on the same page here. Someone must do the baptizing and do so in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That is your belief and also mine.

I said it first.

 

[37818]

SO is it a 3 second rule in baptism? Fully atomically immersed in water with no air bubbles? Maybe distilled water?

I'd love to hear the details. If the human was the size of a drop of water would the sprinkle be an immersion?

Oh wait you guys think the whole thing is symbolic and fake anyways right?

That does not give the explanation the why those who believe that salvation is according to the Bible alone, by God's grace alone being through faith alone in God's Christ alone is so held by them. Of course you would not be able to explain what you do not know or understand.

 

[Walter]

I suggest you ponder the huge semantic difference between "symbolic" and "fake."

I remember the following being discussed during RCIA:
I have a friend who says Baptism is a symbolic act and that it has nothing to do with salvation…how can I answer them?



Simple. By showing them what the Bible says. First, nowhere does the Bible say that Baptism is merely a “symbolic” act…that passage simply does not exist. Second, let’s see what the Bible does say about Baptism: Ezek 36:25-27, it says, “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses…a new heart I will give you and a new spirit I will put within you…and I will put My spirit within you…” Here, in the Old Testament, we have a foreshadowing of New Testament baptism.Now, let’s see if the New Testament corresponds to what we just read in Ezekiel. Acts 2:38, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Note that there is no symbolic language here…this is real! The Book of Acts says, “Be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins.” Ezekiel says, “I will sprinkle clean water upon you and you shall be clean from your uncleanness.” The Book of Acts says, “…and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Ezekiel says: “…and I will put My Spirit within you.” Do you begin to see how God, in the Old Covenant, was preparing us for what He gives us in the New Covenant?Acts 22:16 – “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins…”. 1 Cor 12:13 – “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…” What body was that? The Body of Christ. 1 Ptr 3:21: “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you…”

Scripture simply does not support the non-Catholic notion that Baptism is symbolic. Scripture does very directly and very clearly support the Catholic teaching that Baptism saves us; that Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ; that Baptism washes away sin; and that through Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit…just as the Catholic Church teaches!

 

[Walter]

And, we do not find in the writings of the early church ANYONE who believes baptism is just symbolic.

 

[37818]

I remember the following being discussed during RCIA:
I have a friend who says Baptism is a symbolic act and that it has nothing to do with salvation…how can I answer them?



Simple. By showing them what the Bible says. First, nowhere does the Bible say that Baptism is merely a “symbolic” act…that passage simply does not exist. Second, let’s see what the Bible does say about Baptism: Ezek 36:25-27, it says, “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses…a new heart I will give you and a new spirit I will put within you…and I will put My spirit within you…” Here, in the Old Testament, we have a foreshadowing of New Testament baptism.Now, let’s see if the New Testament corresponds to what we just read in Ezekiel. Acts 2:38, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Note that there is no symbolic language here…this is real! The Book of Acts says, “Be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins.” Ezekiel says, “I will sprinkle clean water upon you and you shall be clean from your uncleanness.” The Book of Acts says, “…and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Ezekiel says: “…and I will put My Spirit within you.” Do you begin to see how God, in the Old Covenant, was preparing us for what He gives us in the New Covenant?Acts 22:16 – “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins…”. 1 Cor 12:13 – “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…” What body was that? The Body of Christ. 1 Ptr 3:21: “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you…”

Scripture simply does not support the non-Catholic notion that Baptism is symbolic. Scripture does very directly and very clearly support the Catholic teaching that Baptism saves us; that Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ; that Baptism washes away sin; and that through Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit…just as the Catholic Church teaches!

@Walter,

What you seem to not understand, nowhere in the NT is it stated that water baptism [immersion] is required in order to be saved. And it is for that reason the water baptism is interpreted to be a symbolic ordinance. Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; neither of which teach baptism as a requirement in order to be saved or as a requirement for the forgiveness of sins, and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The inclusion of the water baptism in those statements does not make those promises void.

 

[37818]

And, we do not find in the writings of the early church ANYONE who believes baptism is just symbolic.

The NT is the authority, not irregular churches.

 

[utilyan]

The NT is the authority, not irregular churches.

NT says the Church is the authority. Pillar and foundation of Truth.

Baptism does something because God says it does. The spiritual mechanics are God's prerogative. I'm not saying all who are not baptized are not saved. God can do as he wills. That doesn't take away the bible's claim that we are baptized into unity with Christ.

Romans 6
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2

12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.



If God says you can be saved by rubbing mud on your back......it is what it is.

Even if insisted symbolic what part of your entire life is not "symbolic"

The whole thing, YOUR LIFE is a communication between You and God, that transcends all temporal phenomena.

I can argue you never ate that toast this morning, you merely received the "symbolic" communication to your brain that the event took place.

Thats why this symbolic approach to depreciate its value is meaningless. Its a very real thing between you and God a communication is made.

 

[Adonia]

The NT is the authority, not irregular churches.

The was nothing irregular about the early Church. There was but one Universal (Catholic) Christian Church with authority to decide things here on earth, and such authority was given to it by God Incarnate Himself, Jesus Christ.

 

[Adonia]

And it is for that reason the water baptism is interpreted to be a symbolic ordinance. Mark 16:16;

Interpreted as such only by you folks. The orthodox interpretation which was accepted for the first 1500 years or so by every Christian is just as brother Walter described it. Remember, your guy John Smythe didn't come up with his newfound interpretation until sometime in the 17th century.

 

[Adonia]

If God says you can be saved by rubbing mud on your back......it is what it is.

Even if insisted symbolic what part of your entire life is not "symbolic"

The whole thing, YOUR LIFE is a communication between You and God, that transcends all temporal phenomena.

I can argue you never ate that toast this morning, you merely received the "symbolic" communication to your brain that the event took place.

Thats why this symbolic approach to depreciate its value is meaningless. Its a very real thing between you and God a communication is made.

Oh man, you are a tour de force with such words. Well done!

 

[Adonia]

That does not give the explanation the why those who believe that salvation is according to the Bible alone, by God's grace alone being through faith alone in God's Christ alone is so held by them. Of course you would not be able to explain what you do not know or understand.

Because in so many places in the Bible we find that it is not just one thing (faith alone) that gets us to heaven, but many other things are mentioned. In addition to baptism, I believe it also says that we will be judged on how we lived, that we shall reap what we have sown, n'est pas?

 

[37818]

NT says the Church is the authority. Pillar and foundation of Truth.

Where?

Baptism does something because God says it does.

Where?

Romans 6
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

So its meaning is what it does in your misunderstanding.

Colossians 2

12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Again, its meaning is what it does in your misunderstanding.

 

[37818]

The was nothing irregular about the early Church. There was but one Universal (Catholic) Christian Church with authority to decide things here on earth, and such authority was given to it by God Incarnate Himself, Jesus Christ.

So the Apostle Paul lied about there being those having a false Jesus and and false gospel, 2 Corinthians 11. ". . . from the simplicity that is in Christ. . . ." ". . . that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, . . ."

 

[37818]

Interpreted as such only by you folks. The orthodox interpretation which was accepted for the first 1500 years or so by every Christian is just as brother Walter described it. Remember, your guy John Smythe didn't come up with his newfound interpretation until sometime in the 17th century.

The teachings of 1st century Christianity is what the NT teaches. False teachings where in the 1st century as well, 2 Corinthians 11.

 

[37818]

Because in so many places in the Bible we find that it is not just one thing (faith alone) that gets us to heaven, but many other things are mentioned. In addition to baptism, I believe it also says that we will be judged on how we lived, that we shall reap what we have sown, n'est pas?

Explain the differences. There is what the NT writers wrote and there are the interpretations. There is what the texts say, what is read into the texts and what is denied. You cannot explain what you do not correctly understand.

Jesus warned of tbose professing Him as Lord and where trusting in what they claimed to have done, Matthew 7:22.

 

[Adonia]

You cannot explain what you do not correctly understand.

I see, so only you correctly understand things and have thus come up with the correct interpretation. Yeah, right.

 

[Adonia]

Where?

1 Timothy 3:15

Where?

1 Peter 3:21

You cannot explain what you do not correctly understand.

 

[John of Japan]

remember the following being discussed during RCIA:
I have a friend who says Baptism is a symbolic act and that it has nothing to do with salvation…how can I answer them?

Simple. By showing them what the Bible says. First, nowhere does the Bible say that Baptism is merely a “symbolic” act…that passage simply does not exist.

The language of Rom. 6:3-4 is clearly symbolic. No one believes that we actually die when we are baptized, and are buried when we are baptized. I could give other examples.

Second, let’s see what the Bible does say about Baptism: Ezek 36:25-27, it says, “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses…a new heart I will give you and a new spirit I will put within you…and I will put My spirit within you…” Here, in the Old Testament, we have a foreshadowing of New Testament baptism.Now, let’s see if the New Testament corresponds to what we just read in Ezekiel.

As anyone who takes Greek learns, Catholic or Protestant or Baptist, the Greek word baptizo means "to immerse." However, in Ezek 36:25-27, the Hebrew word is zâraq, which never means "immerse." Again, the LXX Greek word there is the future of hraino, meaning "sprinkle," not baptizo. You are mixing up "sprinkle" with "baptize."

Acts 2:38, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Note that there is no symbolic language here…this is real! The Book of Acts says, “Be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins.” Ezekiel says, “I will sprinkle clean water upon you and you shall be clean from your uncleanness.” The Book of Acts says, “…and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Ezekiel says: “…and I will put My Spirit within you.” Do you begin to see how God, in the Old Covenant, was preparing us for what He gives us in the New Covenant?

This is easily explained. The English translations don't do justice to the original Greek. There is a change in person and number that they do not reflect, so that it is plain in the Greek that Peter is not saying, "Be baptized so you'll be forgiven."

The great Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote, "Repent ye (metanoêsate). First aorist (ingressive) active imperative. Change your mind and your life. Turn right about and do it now. You crucified this Jesus. Now crown him in your hearts as Lord and Christ. This first. And be baptized every one of you (kai baptisthêtô hekastos hûmôn). Rather, 'And let each one of you be baptized.' Change of number from plural to singular and of person from second to third. This change marks a break in the thought here that the English translation does not preserve. The first thing to do is make a radical and complete change of heart and life. Then let each one be baptized after this change has taken place, and the act of baptism be performed 'in the name of Jesus Christ'" (Word Pictures in the NT, accessed through PowerBible).

Acts 22:16 – “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins…”.

Again, this is symbolic language. It only means forgiveness of sins if you believe that sin is a physical object that baptism can wash away. So here baptism symbolizes the forgiveness of sin, but does not accomplish it.

1 Cor 12:13 – “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…” What body was that? The Body of Christ.

Again, Greek baptizo means "to immerse." Again we have symbolic language, wherein we are "immersed" into the body of Christ. Your own interpretation here shows that "baptized" is symbolic, yet you said above that baptism is never symbolic.

1 Ptr 3:21: “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you…”

You left out the rest of the verse. Here is the whole verse, and it is clearly symbolic: "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

It is clearing your conscience through the blood of Christ, by means of the resurrection of Christ, that saves you, not immersion into water.

Scripture simply does not support the non-Catholic notion that Baptism is symbolic. Scripture does very directly and very clearly support the Catholic teaching that Baptism saves us; that Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ; that Baptism washes away sin; and that through Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit…just as the Catholic Church teaches!

You've given a very few verses, purporting to be on your side, but there are many which say that we must simply believe for salvation. There are 220 verses in the NT that use some form of the Greek word for believe, pisteuo. I know that the Douay-Rheims translates these cases as "believe," not as the Japanese JW version does, 信仰を働かせる, "make your faith work."

So according to the Bible, to be saved, we must simply "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," specifically His blood atonement for sin and His resurrection.