A Command To Sobriety!

[bound]

Wow--what does eating pork have to do with drinking alcohol? Drinking alcohol or not drinking alcohol has NOTHING to do with DIETARY discipline--it has EVERYTHING to do with living a godly, separated life and NOT causing another weaker brother or sister to stumble.

Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. - Romans 14:6-7

If I was 'out' with standingfirminChrist and I knew drinking a beer would cause scandal I would, out of charity, restrain myself but let us not pretend that such restrain or act of charity is anything more than an act of charity and not a means for those who are weaker to exercise tyranny over the strong. Such is always a risk when one assumes one's weaker nature sets the measure of others.

Remember, we are 'not' made unclean by what enters our mouths but by what comes out of them...

 

[Alcott]

BTW, bound,

The last time I checked, 1 Thessalonians 5:6,8; 1 Peter 1:13; and 1 Peter 5:8 were in the New Testament and are commands to abstain from alcohol.

I Thessalonians 5: 6, 8 -- So then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. ... But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. ...

I Peter 1:13 -- Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I Peter 5:8 -- Be of sober spirit, be on the alert Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Evidently SFiC thinks Catholic, Orthodox, or others who take a sip of [fermented] wine for communion should all be arrested for public intoxication or driving under the influence after their service is done. Or does "sober" mean absolutely never taking a drink-- a sip-- a microliter-- of wine? Who knows what he thinks should be done to one who takes a spoon of cough syrip or gargles with Listerine?-- besides eternal damnation for doing so, that is.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Alcott, since the Greek word for sober is 'nepho', and nepho means 'abstain from wine', your argument is not with me, but with God. You don't like the idea of abstaining from alcohol becuase the Word of God commands it? No surprise. Jeremiah said the heart is deceitful above all others and desparately wicked.

Man wants to walk in the way that seems right to him. That is why we are commanded rather to walk in the Spirit and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Neither yeild your members as instruments of unrighteousness.

We are given the command to abstain from spiritous beverages. When we disobey this command from God's Word, we are giving place to the devil.

You can laugh and you can mock, but God is not mocked. and I would not take His Word, nor His wrath on the children of disobedience lightly.

 

[ituttut]

PAGE One

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

This may not look like it will fit here, but I believe it will. We should not get too much of anything that can harm us. Evidently in their "perfect" state, Adam and the woman could eat what ever God allowed, and also eat as much as they wanted. We see this in Genesis 2:16 He told Adam "….. "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat". Adam evidently told his wife what God said, for in Genesis 3:1, the serpent begins to work on the woman - "……., "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? So without getting side tracked here let's look at what they can eat, and how much.

"Mayest freely eat." They can freely eat what they wish of all the trees with the exception of one, and they may eat as much as they want. Isn't this going to be great in eternity? Eat as much as we want off of every tree, and it will be all right for us to do so. Our verb (mayest) tells them they have permission to eat, and the adverb (freely) is without restraint. They are authorized to eat as much as they want of any tree in the garden, but one.

This tells us the woman took the word of the serpent over the word of her "husband", the head of her. The serpent deceived her, and he led her on to take that first bite. It must have been good for she then gave to her husband to eat. Adam was not deceived but ate. And she "did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." And they ate, they ate, and ate some more.

In eating the forbidden fruit they both became very wise. Big mistake for all of mankind. We men give in to our wives we love, disobeying God, and the wives will believe another over us. It would seem we deserve each other.

We see in your Proverbs 20:1 above we are not to be deceived as was Eve, for if we do we will "die". So God gave to Noah the "wine to make glad the heart of man". We should see in what happened to Noah God gave the OK to drink the "intoxicating" wine, and strong drink, but He never told us we mayest freely drink these beverages. Within limits Yes, but He says we are not to drink as much as we want, or desire of the wine, strong drink, or anything else. We are not what they were in the Garden, before the fall.

Proverbs 23:29-35 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

All you do is quote what we know. Don't get drunk for you tarry with the "mixed wine". Who tarry's too long at the wine? It is those that add water to the wine. This is what mixed wine is. His Word will answer our questions, if we will only believe Him. Why do we continually desire to hear the word of man?

Let's go back to the Lord's Supper, and you tell me where scripture is wrong. We cannot deny that they were drinking wine, for they were getting drunk - I Corinthians 11:21. So we must accept the fact that they were drinking wine. Paul did not tell them to change the contents of the cup. What was in the cup that made drunk? Wine or Grape Juice, or something else. You say it was Grape Juice so it is up to you to prove that "grape juice" had the POWER to make "drunk". We are not to "water down the blood of Jesus Christ".

- continue -

 

[ituttut]

PAGE TWO

Many have stated that there is no scriptural support for total abstinence, yet if one diligent studies the Word, one will find that the Lord does demand total abstinence in the life of the Believer in four verses in the New Testament. Let me first share those four verses:

Quote:

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.



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Don't get drunk​

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1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

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don't get drunk​

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1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

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don't get drunk​

Quote:

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:​

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don't get drunk​

Now, one may say that in none of the verses posted above is there a command to abstain from alcohol, but there certainly is. One has to study the Word as Paul told Timothy

Quote:​

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

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Drink wine for your stomach's sake, but for Pete's sake do not get drunk. Paul said "rightly", not "wrongly". ​

If one is attentive in one's studies, one will see that the Greek word for 'sober' is the word 'nepho', pronounced 'nay-foe'. Here is the definition of that word 'nepho':

Quote:​

nepho nay'-fo

of uncertain affinity: to abstain from wine (keep sober), i.e. (figuratively) be discreet:--be sober, watch. ​

I hate to rain on your parade but in "Greek" nepho is a prefix for "clouds". A nephoscope is used for altitude, direction, and the velocity of movement of clouds.​

Now, one might say 'Oh, but it might mean be discreet, or to watch'. But if sober cannot mean 'total abstinence in at least one of those four verses, why would the definition be included in the list?

If one looks at a modern word in our dictionaries, it should erase any belief that it could mean anything other than abstaining from alcohol. Consider this:

Quote:​

nephalism ​

\Neph"a*lism\, n. [Gr. ? soberness, fr. ? sober, ? to drink no wine: cf. F. n['e]phalisme.] Total abstinence from spirituous liquor.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. ​

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Can't argue with this one. But to what verse do you find this word applied? We are not as John the Baptist (unless you want to claim to be a Jew today in the eyes of God and declare yourself as a Jewish Nazarite).​

Total abstinence! Even the modern dictionaries use a form of the word nepho which can mean nothing but total abstinence from alcoholic beverage!

See above

In the Word of God Peter commands the reader to ‘Be sober! Be vigilant! Webster’s 1828 Dictionary defines ‘vigilant’ in this manner:
Quote:
VIG'ILANT, a. L. vigilans. Watchful; circumspect; attentive to discover and avoid danger, or to provide for safety.
Take your places and be vigilant. Be sober, be vigilant.


One cannot be vigilant, watching to avoid danger, without abstaining from alcoholic beverages. When one drinks just one drink of alcoholic beverage, that one is intoxicated to a degree. It may not be noticeable to the one imbibing right away, but that is how deceiving alcohol is.

"Mixed wine will really deceive you". His Word tells us to not "tarry" when drinking wine diluted with water. Wine not diluted does not "sneak up on you". To not get drunk, we should know when to stop. It will "make the heart glad", just as His Word said. On this note, will you please just answer the question of who it was that gave to man "wine to make glad the heart of man"? Above you have just proved it is not man, so who else can you think of that has your interest at heart?

Drunkenness does not just hit a person all at once. From the very first swallow, the alcohol begins to have an effect on the human body.

I agreed with this above as you know you are drinking the "gift from God", if we can believe the Bible. But what you describe as "drunkenness" is not a drunk, but one drinking the "gift" with thanksgiving toward the One who gave it to us. But we are not to abuse this gift. If we can't handle it, then don't drink it. If it is a sin to one, that one should not drink it. But one should not ascribe to God He gave it to us to make us drunk. We are the only one's that can bring this about.

Solomon warned in Proverbs 31:
Proverbs 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

Amen. But was Jesus King while on this earth, or His Apostles? I am not a King, or a Prince, and I don't try to act like one, and I have not taken a vow to abstane the wine. I see no authority given in Psalms 104 that we can wipe out any verse we don't like. Why take such a burden to yourself?

Finished



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[standingfirminChrist]

ittuttut,

God did not give Noah the intoxicating wine. Nowhere in Scripture did God give Noah intoxicating wine, nowhere did He give His children intoxicating wine. Intoxicating wine is a result of the curse.

In the Garden there were no intoxicating plants or beverages. How do I know this? Because the Word of God tells us at the end of the sixth day all that God created was very good. If intoxicants were in the garden, then it would not be 'very good', as there is nothing good about intoxicants.

Noah's cultivating a vineyard, and his maiking of intoxicating wine from the grapes, caused Noah to sin, and Ham to sin as well.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I hate to rain on your parade but in "Greek" nepho is a prefix for "clouds". A nephoscope is used for altitude, direction, and the velocity of movement of clouds.

Funny, both Strongs and Vines give the definition for nepho as being 'abstain from wine'.

Let me post that again.

3525. nepho
Search for G3525 in KJVSL
nhjw nepho nay'-fo

of uncertain affinity: to abstain from wine (keep sober), i.e. (figuratively) be discreet:--be sober, watch.

&ltB-1,Verb,3525,nepho>
signifies "to be free from the influence of intoxicants;" in the NT, metaphorically, it does not in itself imply watchfulness, but is used in association with it, 1 Thess. 5:6,8; 2 Tim. 4:5; 1 Pet. 1:13; 4:7, RV (AV, "watch"); 5:8. Cp. eknepho and ananepho, under AWAKE, No. 3 and Note.

Nope, they don't allude to clouds. Besides, that would make no sense. Paul commanding the reader to be a cloud and watchful? Nonsense!

 

[Alcott]

Alcott, since the Greek word for sober is 'nepho', and nepho means 'abstain from wine', your argument is not with me, but with God.

Note that Slick does not bother to deny that he thinks Catholics, Orthodox, and others who take a sip of wine at communion should be arrested for public intoxication or driving under the influence, nor that anyone who takes cough syrup or gargles with Listerine will be damned for doing so.

You can laugh and you can mock, but God is not mocked. and I would not take His Word, nor His wrath on the children of disobedience lightly.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Alcott,

Apparently you not only ignore the command to abstain from alcohol that is in Scripture, but you also ignore the Scripture that says 'Let no corrupt communication proceed from your mouth.'

I will pray for you.

 

[ituttut]

God did not give Noah the intoxicating wine. Nowhere in Scripture did God give Noah intoxicating wine, nowhere did He give His children intoxicating wine. Intoxicating wine is a result of the curse.

Thanks for the reply. We do disagree standingfirminChrist.


The curse is the Law, and Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. The Law says nothing about drinking wine. If we make it our God then it is sin. If we make "eating" our God, then it is a sin. If we make "sex" our God then it is a sin. If we make "vegetables", or meat, clothes, cars, trinkets, or anything else then it is a sin. Until we make "wine" our God however it is not a sin according to Psalms 104, but you say it is. Please give scripture to counteract Psalms 104. Why do you judge those justified by God in Genesis 14:18; 27:25 and 37?

Who is it that is covered in "blood" (wine) in Genesis 49:11?

I have scripture. You give your words.

In the Garden there were no intoxicating plants or beverages. How do I know this? Because the Word of God tells us at the end of the sixth day all that God created was very good. If intoxicants were in the garden, then it would not be 'very good', as there is nothing good about intoxicants.

Then why did He give "wine" that will make drunk. Where do we think wine came from. They evidently didn't have it on the other side for as there is no mention of it. The ground was not cursed as it was before. God gave it at the "again beginning" after the flood. Noah got drunk on this side of the flood. If he had access on the other side, then he would have gotten drunk then, and would not have done it again on this side.

Of course there is good from intoxicants. What about the "good "Samaritan" that poured wine and oil to the wound?

Noah's cultivating a vineyard, and his maiking of intoxicating wine from the grapes, caused Noah to sin, and Ham to sin as well.

Amen! Did Noah become a drunk? Noah is the first mentioned to have ever drunk wine, and I believe it was a gift to Noah, and all mankind, just as His Word tells us. Noah was the "guinea pig" proving to all that "wine" could make one drunk if one drinks too much. You don't have to believe this, but if you don't, you don't.

Neither of us are drunk's, so that is what is important.

Past my bedtime.

 

[Alcott]

I will pray for you.

Well, gee, thanks! The pope praying for me just makes my day... and days.... and days........

 

[tinytim]

Both sides of this debate, shut up already, zip it, stuff a sock in it. This subject is enough to drive anyone crazy. How many times you can say it is wrong? OK SFIC and His Blood, now repeat after me, I am against drinking, I am against drinking, now keep repeating that until Cheney becomes President. OK, now Webdog and others repeat after me, I am for drinking, I am for drinking, and repeat that until Jerry Falwell becomes President. Shut up already. Enough to drive someone to drink.

I just thought this needs repeating....

 

[EdSutton]

I checked this morning to see if this posting crowd had sobered up.

No such luck! This bunch was still "tarrying at the wine." :BangHead:

Ed

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Should we give all grape products up?

Are you taking a vow to be a Nazarite?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Thanks for the reply. We do disagree standingfirminChrist.


The curse is the Law, and Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. The Law says nothing about drinking wine. If we make it our God then it is sin. If we make "eating" our God, then it is a sin. If we make "sex" our God then it is a sin. If we make "vegetables", or meat, clothes, cars, trinkets, or anything else then it is a sin. Until we make "wine" our God however it is not a sin according to Psalms 104, but you say it is. Please give scripture to counteract Psalms 104. Why do you judge those justified by God in Genesis 14:18; 27:25 and 37?

Who is it that is covered in "blood" (wine) in Genesis 49:11?

I have scripture. You give your words.Then why did He give "wine" that will make drunk. Where do we think wine came from. They evidently didn't have it on the other side for as there is no mention of it. The ground was not cursed as it was before. God gave it at the "again beginning" after the flood. Noah got drunk on this side of the flood. If he had access on the other side, then he would have gotten drunk then, and would not have done it again on this side.

Of course there is good from intoxicants. What about the "good "Samaritan" that poured wine and oil to the wound? Amen! Did Noah become a drunk? Noah is the first mentioned to have ever drunk wine, and I believe it was a gift to Noah, and all mankind, just as His Word tells us. Noah was the "guinea pig" proving to all that "wine" could make one drunk if one drinks too much. You don't have to believe this, but if you don't, you don't.

Neither of us are drunk's, so that is what is important.

Past my bedtime.

Wrong ittuttut. I have given Scripture and proven through rightly dividing that the Scripture you keep providing is being taken out of context. Not only have I given Scripture, but I have given historical accounts to verify the preserving of grape juice in Biblical times.

I have shown that it was an unfermented wine in your favorite verse from Psalm 104; the 'the wine that maketh glad the heart of man.' I have shown the Greek for the word 'sober' to mean abstain from wine.

You not only have taken Scripture out of context, twisting the truth to become a lie, but you also try to change the meaning of the Greek word 'nepho' from sober to clouds; changing the truth into a lie.

 

[dan e.]

why do you keep responding.....you aren't going to convince anyone, those who disagree with you aren't going to convince anyone.......i don't understand why this link was even started again, as if a christian who disagrees with you is lesser or not even a christian. you can live with us who disagree with you just as we can live with you. please stop. no more greek. it won't convince us who already believes they are okay to drink......just to let you know......it isn't as if we are blatantly disobeying (of course, i don't even drink....but don't think it is wrong). we actually think it to be okay. it isn't as if we don't care what the bible says as many may suggest.......we don't agree with your interpretation. stop responding. don't even respond to this. I SAID DON'T!. i know you are tempted....ah ah ah!!! STOP IT. DON'T CLICK ON POST REPLY. JUST DON'T DO IT. LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE. PLEASE!



its no use. i can tell you are going to reply........sigh. :tear:

 

[ccrobinson]

The poor horse... :tear:

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 

[annsni]

2 Timothy 2:23 "Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels."

Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless."

 

[tinytim]

I've heard of beating a dead horse, but never drinking one...