A compassionate plea to Calvinists

[Rippon]

Your interpretations of scripture are horrendous, and border on blasphemy.

My interpretation of 2 Cor. 2:15,16 is that the Gospel being preached has a dual effect. To some it is a stench, to others a beautiful aroma. God has a purpose for the Gospel for the elect as well as for the reprobate.

The Lord mercies some and hardens the rest.The Lord is kind to some and acts with severity to the rest. The whole Bible is filled with such antithetical statements.

Historical "Reformed" orthodoxy. Many have disagreed with Reformed theology throughout the history of the church and STILL DO.

And you are the prime example. Denying original sin as you do lands you in heterodoxy. I am being charitable --unlike you with the blasphemy charge.

 

[Rippon]

If you believe in Limited Atonement you cannot possibly know you are elect.
if Limited Atonement is true, there is a far greater probability that you are NOT elect.

That skewed logic is so wacky, but you use it all the time. First of all most Calvinists don't call it Limited Atonement but rather Particular Redemption or Definite Atonement.

One shouldn't base there salvation on probabilities as you do winman. It is not a game for statisticians. Many rest on the unbiblical theory of Unlimited Atonement as you do. They think since Christ died for each and every person then they are covered. What a crock! They think since Jesus loved me and died for everyone then they don't have a thing to worry about. Wrong!

Instead of that warped bit of thinking, one's salvation has to be determined by other means. Are you a sinner who is separated from God because you are a rebel against God? There is only one remedy. And that is to rest in the finished work of the Lamb of God --Jesus Christ Himself. He accomplished salvation --not potential salvation.

I am not above anybody,

Well you certainly sound like you are when you dismiss 2 Cor. 2:15,16 and 2 Peter 1:10,11. You act as if they don't apply to you. You are beyond all that. Your posture is not one of humility.

I can KNOW those promises were made to me because I believe the Bible teaches UNlimited atonement. Jesus died for 100% of all men. That MUST include me.

And the Beast and the False Prophet according to your faulty logic.

You just don't get it, Calvinism does not teach the gospel.

Stop right there. You have said that multiple times and it has to stop. It is against the stated rules of the forum for one thing and is blatantly false as well. You say it out of spite. If it wasn't for Calvinists throughout Church History who the Lord raised up the Kingdom of God would not have been extended as it has. If Calvinism doesn't teach the Gospel then Spurgeon, DMLJ, Carey, Judson and a host of others are guilty as well. Somehow, your conclusion of the matter is terribly wrong. I will stick with biblical Calvinism --thank you very much.

You are wrong.

No, I am not wrong. And each time you go on your merry little jaunt you sound like a hyper-Calvinist. Hyper-Calvinists preachers think they can determine on their own if their audience is elect or not. You don't know if folks are elect or not. No one knows with any certainty. There are certain signs --such as the fruit they are bearing --their life testimony --but to insist that you know for sure who the elect are is foolhardy.

Your problem is you have been taught another gospel. And it is not good news at all.

You need to put a lid on it sonny. You speak out of desperation. As a Christian honor the rules of board. Got it?

 

[Yeshua1]

My interpretation of 2 Cor. 2:15,16 is that the Gospel being preached has a dual effect. To some it is a stench, to others a beautiful aroma. God has a purpose for the Gospel for the elect as well as for the reprobate.

The Lord mercies some and hardens the rest.The Lord is kind to some and acts with severity to the rest. The whole Bible is filled with such antithetical statements.



And you are the prime example. Denying original sin as you do lands you in heterodoxy. I am being charitable --unlike you with the blasphemy charge.

Since he denies the original sin aspect of the fall, and that we were all spiritually made dead in Adam, how can he even hold to the pauline view that we were now made alive again in Christ, for how can we, since never were spiiritul dead?

 

[steaver]

So you apparently think that John MacArthur is unique among Calvinist preachers for him to exhort and implore people to lay down their weapons of warfare and be reconciled with God? How many Calvinists have you actually listened to? How many sermons of Calvinistic preachers have really read? It sounds to me like you are completely oblivious.

I should clarify that I use to love listening to Johnny Mac, and he is a good expository preacher and is right on with many topics, but One day I was listening to him and he was preaching on the subject of the lost - the un-elect - of course he never called them that. He was basically out right bashing them for their unbelief, saying they deserved hell because they refused to come to Christ!!!!!!!

Can you believe that!!! Isn't that exactly what Winman was talking about? If Calvinistic preachers were really honest they would be up front about what they really believe when they preach.

And btw, MacArthur is right to say those who refuse believe deserve what they get, but for him to say that believing as he believes?? That's just cruel.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

steaver



This kind of ignorant post shows you do not know what you are speaking about so it gets no serious response.



Again...this is foolish and shows you have an agenda....but no knowledge:thumbs:

Exactly! :thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So you apparently think that John MacArthur is unique among Calvinist preachers for him to exhort and implore people to lay down their weapons of warfare and be reconciled with God? How many Calvinists have you actually listened to? How many sermons of Calvinistic preachers have really read? It sounds to me like you are completely oblivious.

Do yourself a favor and read Buyan, Rutherford, Sibbs and Falvel for starters. Why even read John Calvin himself to disabuse you of your prejudice.

Evangelical Preaching by A.W. Pink

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men (2 Cor. 5:11). Do you do this brother preacher? query:Were Paul on earth today saying, "We persuade men" would his orthodoxy be suspected? Again; he announced, "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray (plead) you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Cor. 5:20) Do these methods characterize our evangelical ministrations? Surely we all have need to pray earnestly for more devotion to Christ, more love for souls, more fervour and power in preaching the gospel.

Reading PINK & RUTHERFORD!?!?!? Steavor???:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Rippon]

Do yourself a favor and read Buyan, Rutherford, Sibbs and Falvel for starters.

Why all the spelling mistakes Rip?

It's Bunyan (1628-1688).
Sibbes (1577-1635)
Flavel (1627-1691)

 

[Winman]

Since he denies the original sin aspect of the fall, and that we were all spiritually made dead in Adam, how can he even hold to the pauline view that we were now made alive again in Christ, for how can we, since never were spiiritul dead?

LOL, how can you be alive "again" if you were never alive in the first place?

Boy, I tell ya, logic does not run strong among Calvinists.

And I have never said we were not spiritually dead, I said we were not born that way, but when we matured and understood between good and evil and willingly and knowingly chose to sin, at that point all men spiritually die.

Of course, you knew that is my view, but you misrepresented me anyway, because that is all you've got. So much for being honest.

 

[Yeshua1]

LOL, how can you be alive "again" if you were never alive in the first place?

Boy, I tell ya, logic does not run strong among Calvinists.

And I have never said we were not spiritually dead, I said we were not born that way, but when we matured and understood between good and evil and willingly and knowingly chose to sin, at that point all men spiritually die.

Of course, you knew that is my view, but you misrepresented me anyway, because that is all you've got. So much for being honest.[/Qrn UOTE]

babies start sinning, by acting selfish soon after their birth, where did that come from?

And are you saying that we are born still all right with God, unless we chose to sin, still in a right relationship with him?

If so, why even witness, as when they refuse jesus, that will damn them out from their "innocent state?"

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by Rippon

Do yourself a favor and read Buyan, Rutherford, Sibbs and Falvel for starters.

Why all the spelling mistakes Rip?

It's Bunyan (1628-1688).
Sibbes (1577-1635)
Flavel (1627-1691)

You know, I've always been told that it's OK to talk to yourself, but, it's when you begin answering yourself, you may have a problem.......hmm.

 

[Winman]

babies start sinning, by acting selfish soon after their birth, where did that come from?

And are you saying that we are born still all right with God, unless we chose to sin, still in a right relationship with him?

If so, why even witness, as when they refuse jesus, that will damn them out from their "innocent state?"

This is the easiest Calvinist cliche fallacy there is to refute. If we must have a sin nature to sin, then how did Satan sin when he was created "perfect" in all his ways?

If we must have a sin nature to sin, how did the other angels who sinned sin? And how did Adam and Eve sin? God said EVERYTHING he had made was VERY GOOD.

So, this easily proves your view false. You do not have to be born with a sin nature to sin, all you have to do is have free will. And we do.

And yes, I am saying we are born upright as Ecc 7:29 says.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

What part of "God hath made man upright" do you not understand? Is this too complicated for you? Don't you understand spiritual matters?

You can witness to a newborn baby if you want, but I doubt he will understand you. Maybe you should wait until he grows a little and matures and can comprehend what you are talking about. No?

Like I said, logic does not run strong among Calvinists.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is the easiest Calvinist cliche fallacy there is to refute. If we must have a sin nature to sin, then how did Satan sin when he was created "perfect" in all his ways?

If we must have a sin nature to sin, how did the other angels who sinned sin? And how did Adam and Eve sin? God said EVERYTHING he had made was VERY GOOD.

So, this easily proves your view false. You do not have to be born with a sin nature to sin, all you have to do is have free will. And we do.

And yes, I am saying we are born upright as Ecc 7:29 says.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

What part of "God hath made man upright" do you not understand? Is this too complicated for you? Don't you understand spiritual matters?

You can witness to a newborn baby if you want, but I doubt he will understand you. Maybe you should wait until he grows a little and matures and can comprehend what you are talking about. No?

Like I said, logic does not run strong among Calvinists.

the truth is that ONLY Adam and Satan had what you seem to think all humans still possess even after the fall, real free will!

satan and Adam freely chose to sin, and once that was done, they were, like all of us save Jesus, bound up with sinful natures and desires to go against God!

That is what the fall of both really did to them, perverted their will into creatures that are now at odds/resisting what God wanted them to do!

 

[Winman]

the truth is that ONLY Adam and Satan had what you seem to think all humans still possess even after the fall, real free will!

As usual, you teach utter falsehood. God himself said men have free will;

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

God himself said "if" (option) "any man of you" (universal) gave an offering, he could give it of "his own voluntary will". You cannot get any more clear than that, every man among the Jews had free will and the ability to offer a true offering to God. And God did not pass by or exclude any man, he said this offering from any man would be accepted to make atonement for him.

You teach utter falsehoods, and someday you will stand before God and answer for this.

satan and Adam freely chose to sin, and once that was done, they were, like all of us save Jesus, bound up with sinful natures and desires to go against God!

Pure nonsense, and the scripture I just showed proves "any man" can worship God in truth and be accepted. You teach complete falsehood.

That is what the fall of both really did to them, perverted their will into creatures that are now at odds/resisting what God wanted them to do!

There is going to be a fall alright, when you answer for all the falsehood you spread.

 

[Winman]

That skewed logic is so wacky, but you use it all the time. First of all most Calvinists don't call it Limited Atonement but rather Particular Redemption or Definite Atonement.

You can call it anything you like, if Jesus did not die for every man, then you have no idea who he died for, including yourself. This is perfect logic, and if you were logical you would realize that.

One shouldn't base there salvation on probabilities as you do winman. It is not a game for statisticians. Many rest on the unbiblical theory of Unlimited Atonement as you do. They think since Christ died for each and every person then they are covered. What a crock! They think since Jesus loved me and died for everyone then they don't have a thing to worry about. Wrong!

You are the one betting on a probability, not me. You believe Jesus only died for some men, and that you happen to be one of them. How you know that is beyond me. Did you see your name on a list somewhere?

My faith is in an absolute certainty. Jesus died for all men, so he absolutely died for me. And if I place my trust in him (which I did) I have his absolute promise he will save me.

Instead of that warped bit of thinking, one's salvation has to be determined by other means. Are you a sinner who is separated from God because you are a rebel against God? There is only one remedy. And that is to rest in the finished work of the Lamb of God --Jesus Christ Himself. He accomplished salvation --not potential salvation.

The only thing you have is WORKS. You must work to prove to yourself you are saved. That is no guarantee, the false believers in Matthew 7 depended on their works and they were as lost as a turkey on Thanksgiving Day.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

These persons called Jesus "Lord". They prophesied in his name, cast out devils in his name and did many wonderful WORKS in his name, yet they were lost. Depending on your works does not prove you are saved, you better find some other way to know you are elect.

Well you certainly sound like you are when you dismiss 2 Cor. 2:15,16 and 2 Peter 1:10,11. You act as if they don't apply to you. You are beyond all that. Your posture is not one of humility.

You butchered those scriptures and I showed you that from a Calvinist theologian. Your interpretations of scripture are ridiculous.

And the Beast and the False Prophet according to your faulty logic.

If the Beast and False Prophet are men, then Jesus died for them. Jesus died for all men, especially those that believe.

Stop right there. You have said that multiple times and it has to stop. It is against the stated rules of the forum for one thing and is blatantly false as well. You say it out of spite. If it wasn't for Calvinists throughout Church History who the Lord raised up the Kingdom of God would not have been extended as it has. If Calvinism doesn't teach the Gospel then Spurgeon, DMLJ, Carey, Judson and a host of others are guilty as well. Somehow, your conclusion of the matter is terribly wrong. I will stick with biblical Calvinism --thank you very much.

You do not tell people that Jesus died for "our sins" as Paul did.

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Were these Corinthians saved when Paul told them Jesus died for "our sins"? NOPE. He had no idea if they were elect or not, but he told them "Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures".

You do not teach that, because you do not believe that. You cannot tell any person that Jesus died for their sins, because you cannot know that. You cannot even know if Jesus died for your sins.

So, you misleadingly preach Jesus died for "sinners", but this is a half-truth (and complete lie) as well, because it gives the impression Jesus died for anyone who is a sinner, and you don't believe that. If you told the truth you would say Jesus died for "some sinners" and then admit you do not know which ones.

You are not teaching the same gospel as Paul whatsoever.

1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

How many sinners is 1 Tim 1:15 limited to? NONE, "sinners" here means all sinners, 100% of sinners.

That is not what you preach, you preach another gospel. If you don't like that, then preach what the scriptures truly say, and not your man-made false doctrine.

No, I am not wrong. And each time you go on your merry little jaunt you sound like a hyper-Calvinist. Hyper-Calvinists preachers think they can determine on their own if their audience is elect or not. You don't know if folks are elect or not. No one knows with any certainty. There are certain signs --such as the fruit they are bearing --their life testimony --but to insist that you know for sure who the elect are is foolhardy.

You need to put a lid on it sonny. You speak out of desperation. As a Christian honor the rules of board. Got it?

Non-Cals can know they are saved and the elect on the foundation of God's word. The scriptures repeatedly tell us Jesus died for all men, and that if we trust him we will be saved.

I KNOW Jesus died for me, you DON'T. I know if I trust Jesus I am saved, you DON"T. If Jesus did not die for you, your faith is VAIN.

Believing you are elect does not make it so. You could believe a pistol is unloaded and put it to your head and pull the trigger, if it is loaded it will blow your brains out no matter what you believe.

Ever hear of Terry Kath, the original great guitar player for the band Chicago? He believed a gun was unloaded when it wasn't.

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/terry-kath-strange-rock-deaths/

Believing you are elect does not make it a reality. You need FACTS, not presumptions.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

And yes, I am saying we are born upright as Ecc 7:29 says.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

What part of "God hath made man upright" do you not understand? Is this too complicated for you? Don't you understand spiritual matters?

:laugh::laugh: you have no idea what this is saying yet you attempt to chide y1:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

As usual, you teach utter falsehood. God himself said men have free will;

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

yet another passage you miss and refuse correction on.....it has been explained to you over and over... another case of the TK at work.

 

[Winman]

Winman


yet another passage you miss and refuse correction on.....it has been explained to you over and over... another case of the TK at work.

You do not even know how to use the quote feature, even though you have been here for years, and you think you should instruct others?

What part of "if any man of you" offer a sacrifice unto the Lord, he shall offer it of "his own voluntary will" and "it will be accepted to make atonement for him" do you not understand?

Is this too difficult for you to understand? Do you have to consult your many Reformed theologians to explain this very simple language to you? Are you afraid to believe what it obviously and plainly says to you personally?

It must be very scary to be a Calvinist and afraid to think for yourself.

 

[salzer mtn]

This is the easiest Calvinist cliche fallacy there is to refute. If we must have a sin nature to sin, then how did Satan sin when he was created "perfect" in all his ways?

If we must have a sin nature to sin, how did the other angels who sinned sin? And how did Adam and Eve sin? God said EVERYTHING he had made was VERY GOOD.

So, this easily proves your view false. You do not have to be born with a sin nature to sin, all you have to do is have free will. And we do.

And yes, I am saying we are born upright as Ecc 7:29 says.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

What part of "God hath made man upright" do you not understand? Is this too complicated for you? Don't you understand spiritual matters?

You can witness to a newborn baby if you want, but I doubt he will understand you. Maybe you should wait until he grows a little and matures and can comprehend what you are talking about. No?

Like I said, logic does not run strong among Calvinists.

Satan and the Angels that fell were created and were not born of woman. Also God did make man upright ( Adam) but since the fall of Adam they (All men) sought out many inventions.

 

[Winman]

Satan and the Angels that fell were created and were not born of woman. Also God did make man upright ( Adam) but since the fall of Adam they (All men) sought out many inventions.

Yes, Satan and the angels who fell were all created "very good" according to Gen 1:31. They did not have sin natures, and yet they were able to sin. Adam and Eve were created very good, they did not have sin natures, and yet they were able to sin.

This proves two (2) things;

1) You do not have to be born (or created) with a sin nature to sin.

2) The fact that you sin does not prove you were born with a sin nature.

Your whole theology is based on a PRESUMPTION that the scriptures refute. You presume that a person MUST have a sin nature to sin, when that is probably the easiest fallacy in Calvinism to refute.

Ecc 7:29 is speaking of all men, not Adam only;

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The word "they" is plural and points back directly to the word "man" showing this verse is saying ALL men were made upright, not Adam alone. Adam is not a "they".

And the word "many" describes those "inventions" that caused man to fall from his uprightness. Does it say man fell because of Adam's one singular sin in the garden? NO, it says men have sought MANY inventionS (plural). This shows men fall for their own individual sin, and not the sin of Adam.

If you fellas would just believe what the scriptures plainly say...

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you saying that any here holding to Calvinism, or to the Doctrines of Grace in salvation, are holding to a false premise, and so none of us might even actually be saved?

the bible promises that we can KNOW that we have eternal life, so you are saying God lied to me there?