A Complaint About A Lack of Logic

[JonC]

Putting moderator hat on.

Discussion about differences in interpretation is welcomed. Various views are welcomed. This board exists for such discussions.

Making fun of people for holding a view different from yours is NOT welcome.

People will disagree. Do not try to censure those who disagree with you by making fun of them for disagreeing with you.

Remember that this is a Christian board and members are at least expected to behave as Christians.

Taking moderator hat off.

 

[MB]

Adam knew both good and evil. If so we did not inherit any inability from him. Simply because he had no such inability. He knew Good and scripture says he did. At no time was he disabled from speaking with God and hearing God. Absolute proof that total depravity does not exist
MB.

 

[JonC]

Adam knew both good and evil. If so we did not inherit any inability from him. Simply because he had no such inability. He knew Good and scripture says he did. At no time was he disabled from speaking with God and hearing God. Absolute proof that total depravity does not exist
MB.

Good points. Adam did converse with God after the Fall (so did Cain, Abel, Noah, Moses, the Prophets, ect.).

What do you think that the verse means that Adam "became like" God knowing good and evil after he disobeyed? (Not arguing about it, but simply wondering the meaning as I find it a difficult verse).

 

[JD731]

I think you slid off the rails somewhere along the line. Let's not waste bandwidth and try to get somewhere with this.

Thank you Dave for that.

The subject of Adam is most important. What one believes about the beginning of human history will be the foundation for what they believe about God because this is where we begin to learn about him. You obviously think that Adam sinned when he was in the garden with God but his physical death 930 years later, when his soul and body were separated, was the only judgment of death for his sin. What did God mean when he said we had better get him out of the garden lest he eat of the Tree of Life and live forever? He had access to the Tree of Life before he sinned. Everything about God's creation, including Adam and his bride, was good until Adam sinned. That is when things started down hill and God began working out a fix. Adam needed fixing. Something happened to him that day and it was more than the fact that he was going to die physically. He had many sons and daughters before he died physically and all of them sinned and all lived before Adam died physically. Adam's offspring are the ones to whom Jesus Christ sent his preachers to tell them they can have eternal life. None went to the cemetery where men were buried and covered with dirt. They went to people who were alive and living life. But God said they were dead. What does that mean. The life that God wants to give is obviously different than the life they already have.If God must take the sin away before he can give this life, it must be different than what men have already. I am looking at this logically now. If there is no fellowship with God before this life is given, it must be the life that is defined by what Adam had before sin entered because he had fellowship with God and God considered it good. There was no problem between them. Why do all of Adam's physical family have to be born again from above in order to enter into the presence of God? What will Adam's resurrected body be like? Will it be soul, body, and the Holy Ghost? Why did Jesus have to die for men to be born again? What is the agency of the new birth?

I am not going to accept your premise that I have slid off the rails until you put out some more information that is helpful.

 

[1689Dave]

Thank you Dave for that. It is interesting to me the things you fellows are discussing. Some, if not most of it is from your philosophical presuppositions and seems to be in the defense of those presuppositions. No amount of truth could move you out of your comfort zone and have you look at things outside your own little box. In a word, you are just arguing for your own theological systems.I have brought up several relevant subjects that relate to the fall of Adam. One such subject is the image of Adam. The argument has rather been the phrase "dying ye shall die" or some such phrase that is not even in my bible. That is the way religionist people do. If I must argue about something silly like that to appease you then you need not respond to my comments because I am not going to fall for that. I am interested in what the scriptures teach, not what some religious denomination teaches.

The subject of Adam is most important. What one believes about the beginning of human history will be the foundation for what they believe about God because this is where we begin to learn about him. You obviously think that Adam sinned when he was in the garden with God but his physical death 930 years later, when his soul and body were separated, was the only judgment of death for his sin. What did God mean when he said we had better get him out of the garden lest he eat of the Tree of Life and live forever? He had access to the Tree of Life before he sinned. Everything about God's creation, including Adam and his bride, was good until Adam sinned. That is when things started down hill and God began working out a fix. Adam needed fixing. Something happened to him that day and it was more than the fact that he was going to die physically. He had many sons and daughters before he died physically and all of them sinned and all lived before Adam died physically. Adam's offspring are the ones to whom Jesus Christ sent his preachers to tell them they can have eternal life. None went to the cemetery where men were buried and covered with dirt. They went to people who were alive and living life. But God said they were dead. What does that mean. The life that God wants to give is obviously different than the life they already have.If God must take the sin away before he can give this life, it must be different than what men have already. I am looking at this logically now. If there is no fellowship with God before this life is given, it must be the life that is defined by what Adam had before sin entered because he had fellowship with God and God considered it good. There was no problem between them. Why do all of Adam's physical family have to be born again from above in order to enter into the presence of God? What will Adam's resurrected body be like? Will it be soul, body, and the Holy Ghost? Why did Jesus have to die for men to be born again? What is the agency of the new birth?

I am not going to accept your premise that I have slid off the rails when you have not demonstrated that you know what you are talking about. You are going to have to put out a lot more information before we can go there.

I don't want to argue. I've said all I have to say.

 

[MB]

Good points. Adam did converse with God after the Fall (so did Cain, Abel, Noah, Moses, the Prophets, ect.).

What do you think that the verse means that Adam "became like" God knowing good and evil after he disobeyed? (Not arguing about it, but simply wondering the meaning as I find it a difficult verse).

In my opinion In the sense of knowing good and evil, Adam was like God, but only in that sense There was no restrictions on what he could know about good and evil. IMO This a blessing and a curse. We all like Adam are tempted to commit sin but not as strongly as we are after we have committed it.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

Thank you Dave for that.

The subject of Adam is most important. What one believes about the beginning of human history will be the foundation for what they believe about God because this is where we begin to learn about him. You obviously think that Adam sinned when he was in the garden with God but his physical death 930 years later, when his soul and body were separated, was the only judgment of death for his sin. What did God mean when he said we had better get him out of the garden lest he eat of the Tree of Life and live forever? He had access to the Tree of Life before he sinned. Everything about God's creation, including Adam and his bride, was good until Adam sinned. That is when things started down hill and God began working out a fix. Adam needed fixing. Something happened to him that day and it was more than the fact that he was going to die physically. He had many sons and daughters before he died physically and all of them sinned and all lived before Adam died physically. Adam's offspring are the ones to whom Jesus Christ sent his preachers to tell them they can have eternal life. None went to the cemetery where men were buried and covered with dirt. They went to people who were alive and living life. But God said they were dead. What does that mean. The life that God wants to give is obviously different than the life they already have.If God must take the sin away before he can give this life, it must be different than what men have already. I am looking at this logically now. If there is no fellowship with God before this life is given, it must be the life that is defined by what Adam had before sin entered because he had fellowship with God and God considered it good. There was no problem between them. Why do all of Adam's physical family have to be born again from above in order to enter into the presence of God? What will Adam's resurrected body be like? Will it be soul, body, and the Holy Ghost? Why did Jesus have to die for men to be born again? What is the agency of the new birth?

I am not going to accept your premise that I have slid off the rails until you put out some more information that is helpful.

Seth was born in the likeness and image of Adam.

Same with all other offspring of Adam, to this day.

That is why Total Depravity does show itself clearly in every logical simple thinker destitute of The Spirit of God, in God, Who is Spirit.

 

[JonC]

In my opinion In the sense of knowing good and evil, Adam was like God, but only in that sense There was no restrictions on what he could know about good and evil. IMO This a blessing and a curse. We all like Adam are tempted to commit sin but not as strongly as we are after we have committed it.
MB

Thank you for responding. I lean towards that as well. Through disobedience Adam's eyes were opened to good and evil.

 

[JD731]

Seth was born in the likeness and image of Adam.

Same with all other offspring of Adam, to this day.

That is why Total Depravity does show itself clearly in every logical simple thinker destitute of The Spirit of God, in God, Who is Spirit.

Here is something you should seriously consider;

Total depravity is not a bible doctrine. It is assumed by a subset of religious people but it cannot be defined with scripture, taken in context and it defies logic and reality.

 

[JonC]

Here is something you should seriously consider;

Total depravity is not a bible doctrine. It is assumed by a subset of religious people but it cannot be defined with scripture, taken in context and it defies logic and reality.

I think this depends on how "total depravity" is defined.

Some who use the term do not believe that men cannot choose good, but that they will not (that old argument they could if they would but they won't), the impossibility being the end result of man's choice (apart from God and to include motive) rather than legitimate inability.

(The "cannot because they will not" is from a Spurgeon sermon stressing the outcome - they won't....i.e., they won't choose God apart from the work of the Spirit).

 

[Iconoclast]

Spiritual death happened that day as the text said,dying thou shalt die.
Spiritual death entered,physical death followed.

You suggest man is a glob of flesh?
Do you think man has a spirit/soul these days?
What is the condition of mans spirit?

 

[JonC]

Spiritual death happened that day as the text said,dying thou shalt die.
Spiritual death entered,physical death followed.

You suggest man is a glob of flesh?
Do you think man has a spirit/soul these days?
What is the condition of mans spirit?

Do I suggest that man is a "glob of flesh"? No, of course not.

You misunderstood me. I was not using "flesh" in a secular way but as Scripture uses the word (when the Bible says Adam was created "flesh", we are slaves to the "flesh", we discipline the "flesh", the "flesh" is opposed to the "spirit").

I believe that man is composed of a flesh, a soul and a spirit. @Reformed stated he believes that man is composed of two parts (a body and an "invisible" part). I am not sure that that is wrong, so I do not get dogmatic about whether we are three parts or two.

The reason I think three, however, is that apart from the body there seems to be a soul which does not change when God gives man a "new spirit". If so, it would be (IMHO) an ontological death (the death of who we are). I think that what we refer to as a "spirit" is what Scripture is referring to as either "of the flesh" or "of the Spirit". We are created with a human body, soul and spirit (in this view). But a human spirit is "of the flesh" and not "of the Spirit".

The condition of the human spirit is that it is "of the flesh" in that it is centered on man and not on God. This needs to change. God needs to remove this spirit and put His Spirit in man.

My view has not changed. I still hold to a literal account of Genesis 1-3 (to include God creating Adam flesh, death being physical death and then decay). And I still leave room in my view to consider natural man may be composed of two parts rather than three. That does not interest me so much (as the Hebrew religion did not make such distinctions regarding the "flesh" not being ontological to the person).

In the past people have appropriately argued (as @Reformed has) for their view. But I was not "schooled" or corrected nor were others "schooled" or corrected.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No. We have God telling Adam that if he eats of the fruit he will surely die (death would be certain).

God is not a God of "ifs". God commanded Adam not to eat and told him in the day he did he would surely die.

Make your mind up.

 

[JonC]

Make your mind up.

I did (look back, I corrected my comment).

I was following the line of reasoning that "God telling Adam if he eats of the fruit he would die implies if Adam did not he would not die" but afterwards realized that was based on an attempt (and a successful one) by others to twist Scripture to their theology. The Bible never makes that statement.

Genesis 2:16.... "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

This is not an "if/ then" statement but a command and a consequence. This is one major flaw with some views of Covenant Theology. It changes the command/ statement to an if/ then and then continues in error by denying the antecedent.

 

[JD731]

I did (look back, I corrected my comment).

I was following the line of reasoning that "God telling Adam if he eats of the fruit he would die implies if Adam did not he would not die" but afterwards realized that was based on an attempt (and a successful one) by others to twist Scripture to their theology. The Bible never makes that statement.

.

Hi JonC,

Just a comment on the nature of man at creation.

Flesh - from the ground = world consciousness
Soul - the spiritual part of man = self consciousness (the heart)
Spirit - From above = God consciousness

If Adam had not sinned he would have lived forever. He had access to the tree of life. His body would not have been corruptible and the Spirit of God would not have departed. How I can be sure of that is because the one man who did live without sin had all three of these distinctions intact is Jesus Christ.

It is interesting that sin did not ravage his body and even in death it is said that it did not suffer corruption. That seems to be a theme of the early Jewish preachers in the book of Acts and I noticed it in my early years as a Christian.Here is an example;

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (where was the Spirit? He quickened the body of Jesus Christ = 3 parts, each distinct from the other, yet one, a trinity see 1 pet 3:18 and Rom 8:11)

If Adam had not sinned then he would have been sealed in his righteousness, as well his offspring, and they would have formed a habitat for the Spirit of God. Isn't that what happened before our very eyes and do we not participate in that very thing through the last Adam, the second man, Jesus Christ in his church, his body and according to Eph 2:20, the temple of the Holy Spirit of God?

God works his wisdom in spite of the sinfulness of man and the opposition of Satan.

 

[37818]

In a word, wrong.

You are irrational. And I am wrong about what?

The fact death was, and in evidence by God's warning He gave Adam in Genesis 2:17 and to Eve with him as she explained what God had told both of them in Genesis 3:2, " . . . lest ye die."

 

[JonC]

Hi JonC,

Just a comment on the nature of man at creation.

Flesh - from the ground = world consciousness
Soul - the spiritual part of man = self consciousness (the heart)
Spirit - From above = God consciousness

If Adam had not sinned he would have lived forever. He had access to the tree of life. His body would not have been corruptible and the Spirit of God would not have departed. How I can be sure of that is because the one man who did live without sin had all three of these distinctions intact is Jesus Christ.

It is interesting that sin did not ravage his body and even in death it is said that it did not suffer corruption. That seems to be a theme of the early Jewish preachers in the book of Acts and I noticed it in my early years as a Christian.Here is an example;

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (where was the Spirit? He quickened the body of Jesus Christ = 3 parts, each distinct from the other, yet one, a trinity see 1 pet 3:18 and Rom 8:11)

If Adam had not sinned then he would have been sealed in his righteousness, as well his offspring, and they would have formed a habitat for the Spirit of God. Isn't that what happened before our very eyes and do we not participate in that very thing through the last Adam, the second man, Jesus Christ in his church, his body and according to Eph 2:20, the temple of the Holy Spirit of God?

God works his wisdom in spite of the sinfulness of man and the opposition of Satan.

I am not sure about the two vs three aspects of man issue. I really have not made up my mind as I can see it both ways.

I disagree with your statement that "If Adam had not sinned he would have lived forever". The reason is that God's command to Adam does not appear to be a two sided issue (that if Adam did not then____). I am not sure that we can apply the Tree of Life pre-fall (Adam could have eaten of this tree first, perhaps he did). These are just things that we cannot know. So perhaps Adam would have lived forever (I cannot say that he wouldn't have). I am just hesitant to move that from trivial speculation and into the realm of doctrine.

But it is a very interesting topic.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I am not sure about the two vs three aspects of man issue. I really have not made up my mind as I can see it both ways.

I disagree with your statement that "If Adam had not sinned he would have lived forever". The reason is that God's command to Adam does not appear to be a two sided issue (that if Adam did not then____). I am not sure that we can apply the Tree of Life pre-fall (Adam could have eaten of this tree first, perhaps he did). These are just things that we cannot know. So perhaps Adam would have lived forever (I cannot say that he wouldn't have). I am just hesitant to move that from trivial speculation and into the realm of doctrine.

But it is a very interesting topic.

I agree that Adam was created a mortal being, not immortal, that is, not having life within himself. But it seems a strange idea that the Tree of Life would be of less effect before Adam’s sin than after. Eating from it and living forever seems to be its effect. A sensible interpretation is that regularly eating from the Tree of Life would extend life indefinitely. God intentionally blocked this possibility after Adam sinned.

 

[Alan Gross]

Here is something you should seriously consider;

Total depravity is not a bible doctrine. It is assumed by a subset of religious people but it cannot be defined with scripture, taken in context and it defies logic and reality.

Here is something you should seriously consider;

Repent and believe the Gospel.

Anyone who has not seen their Total Depravity and been convicted of lying, for example, like in your reply, have never had anything to Repent of or for Jesus Christ to die for.

The Nature of God and your sin of lying may attempt to 'glorify' some other supernaturally evil being, but God is Offended and His Law is Transgressed.

Sin against God is in The Higher Realm of The Spirit.

Sin is Infinite and Eternal Against The Eternal Trice-Holy God.

The natural man is dead in trespasses in sins, spiritually.

There is no ability of the flesh, which is born flesh, to profit anything Spiritual, or relate in any way to God, Who is Spirit, other than to be lost, and spiritually dead.

God Did Not Command to try to figure out some Totally Depraved twisted illogical simpletine-ness the attempt to 'glorify' The Devil, by trying to say God Worships human beings.

God Commands that all individuals born Totally Depraved REPENT of what,...being Totally Depraved.

Total Depravity has been taught by God, since The Garden of Eden, when God Prophecied that "in the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.

Romans 5:15
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."

Romans 5:18
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life".

James 2:11, Gill; For he that said, Do not commit adultery,.... That same lawgiver, who is but one, and is God, that gave out the seventh command, and forbids adultery,

said also, Do not kill; delivered the sixth command, which forbids murder.

Now if thou commit no adultery; do not break the seventh command;

yet if thou kill, break the sixth command,

thou art become a transgressor of the law; not of that particular precept of the law, the seventh command, for the contrary is supposed before, but of the sixth only; and yet by so doing, a man becomes a violator of the whole law; for the law is but one, though it consists of various precepts; and the breach of one precept, as well as of another, is the breach of the law: and besides, there is but one lawgiver, who has enjoined one command, as well as another, and whose legislative power and authority is despised and trampled upon by the violation of one command, as of another. This is the apostle's argument, and way of reasoning, proving the above assertion, that he that breaks the law in one particular instance, is guilty of the breach of the whole law.

The prospect that Armenians DO NOT PLACE THEIR SOUL UNDER THE CONSIDERATION of GOD'S ETERNAL WORDS
is DEMONIC.

They are alienated from even 'thinking about' Honoring God, with their sin-cursed reasoning.

They are proud, boast, and brag and accuse others of saying they wrongfully are said to be proud, boast, and brag.

I believe it is God Who is Eternally Offended by their rebellion, abomination, heresy, and pride, boasting, and sinful bragging.

If they would only do one thing, they would done.

If they would STOP BRAGGING ABOUT THEIR IGNORANCE.

The Spirit of God is a Component of Biblical Theology and NOT ARMENIANISM> It's not there.



............……………….



NNE HAS BEEN TAUGHT THE STUFF OF BIBLE DOCTRINE WITHOUT BOWING TO THE PLAIN STRAIGHTFORWARD TEACHING OF TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

NNE.

The 'Objection' to the various 'Objections' of The Covenant of Grace is, "You don't grasp the concept of Total Depravity and, in fact, you fight it will all the anger you can generate AGAINST Total Depravity Taught all through THE BIBLE AND GOD, including calling God's Teachings by a man's name.

 

[JD731]

Here is something you should seriously consider;

Repent and believe the Gospel.

Anyone who has not seen their Total Depravity and been convicted of lying, for example, like in your reply, have never had anything to Repent of or for Jesus Christ to die for.

The Nature of God and your sin of lying may attempt to 'glorify' some other supernaturally evil being, but God is Offended and His Law is Transgressed.

Sin against God is in The Higher Realm of The Spirit.

Sin is Infinite and Eternal Against The Eternal Trice-Holy God.

The natural man is dead in trespasses in sins, spiritually.

There is no ability of the flesh, which is born flesh, to profit anything Spiritual, or relate in any way to God, Who is Spirit, other than to be lost, and spiritually dead.

God Did Not Command to try to figure out some Totally Depraved twisted illogical simpletine-ness the attempt to 'glorify' The Devil, by trying to say God Worships human beings.

God Commands that all individuals born Totally Depraved REPENT of what,...being Totally Depraved.

Total Depravity has been taught by God, since The Garden of Eden, when God Prophecied that "in the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.

Romans 5:15
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."

Romans 5:18
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life".

James 2:11, Gill; For he that said, Do not commit adultery,.... That same lawgiver, who is but one, and is God, that gave out the seventh command, and forbids adultery,

said also, Do not kill; delivered the sixth command, which forbids murder.

Now if thou commit no adultery; do not break the seventh command;

yet if thou kill, break the sixth command,

thou art become a transgressor of the law; not of that particular precept of the law, the seventh command, for the contrary is supposed before, but of the sixth only; and yet by so doing, a man becomes a violator of the whole law; for the law is but one, though it consists of various precepts; and the breach of one precept, as well as of another, is the breach of the law: and besides, there is but one lawgiver, who has enjoined one command, as well as another, and whose legislative power and authority is despised and trampled upon by the violation of one command, as of another. This is the apostle's argument, and way of reasoning, proving the above assertion, that he that breaks the law in one particular instance, is guilty of the breach of the whole law.

The prospect that Armenians DO NOT PLACE THEIR SOUL UNDER THE CONSIDERATION of GOD'S ETERNAL WORDS
is DEMONIC.

They are alienated from even 'thinking about' Honoring God, with their sin-cursed reasoning.

They are proud, boast, and brag and accuse others of saying they wrongfully are said to be proud, boast, and brag.

I believe it is God Who is Eternally Offended by their rebellion, abomination, heresy, and pride, boasting, and sinful bragging.

If they would only do one thing, they would done.

If they would STOP BRAGGING ABOUT THEIR IGNORANCE.

The Spirit of God is a Component of Biblical Theology and NOT ARMENIANISM> It's not there.



............……………….



NNE HAS BEEN TAUGHT THE STUFF OF BIBLE DOCTRINE WITHOUT BOWING TO THE PLAIN STRAIGHTFORWARD TEACHING OF TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

NNE.

The 'Objection' to the various 'Objections' of The Covenant of Grace is, "You don't grasp the concept of Total Depravity and, in fact, you fight it will all the anger you can generate AGAINST Total Depravity Taught all through THE BIBLE AND GOD, including calling God's Teachings by a man's name.

JonC very wisely said one should define terms and I agree with that. However, one is much safer I think to use the scriptural terms as much as possible given that sometimes a clear Bible doctrine like the trinity is best described with that non biblical term so long as everyone is in agreement with the meaning. It is true with trinity and a few other terms but I don’t think it is true with total depravity. JonC doesn’t seem to think so either. As far as I can tell the reformed are the only denominations that uses the term.