The passage is a "if" statement, or at least, a conditional one.Thanks. No big deal.
I had assumed that the passage was an "if" statement. My assumption was incorrect. I went off another members presentation of the passage and should have checked Scripture before responding. It sounded right so I went with it. I did not catch it until later on.
So much for memory. I forget where I put my keys. I should have looked up the verse at the start.
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A Complaint About A Lack of Logic
- Thread starter JD731
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But not in the text of Scripture.
In the Bible it is a command followed by a consequence when the command is violated. (I personally believe God knew what would happen when he took Adam and placed him in the Garden to dwell with God, hence a redemption where God will dwell with man... But I do not force that view on anyone).
Okay, you are reformed. Same, same.
Amen to that.
Do you know anyone who calls Jesus Emmanuel, which means God with us? Think about your claim. A bunch of Jews who put him on a cross thinks he is God. My head spins. He is a saviour first. They called him Jesus, which means Jehovah is salvation. Emmanuel is the name for his second coming when they are all saved.It is a prophecy yet future.
Jesus Christ told the Greeks when he was facing the cross and as Andrew brought them to Jesus for a conference. Here is what Jesus Said to them as he dismissed them.
Jn 12:20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Jesus Christ has had a fruitful ministry among the gentiles, but it was post resurrection.
What say you about Jesus Christ speaking to a gentile woman who came to him and him calling her a dog?
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Being honest, do you think Jesus knew who he was sent to or would you think he might have told a little fib there? What say you?
Here is a post to help my reformed friends who have not been able to rightly divide the scriptures.
The OT presents the Messiah of Israel in three consecutive offices.
1) The perfect Prophet
2) The perfect Priest
3) The perfect Potentate
The types for him in these offices in the OT were, Moses, the prophet. Aaron the priest, and David the potentate.
When Jesus came to Israel he came as the expected Prophet. He is the "WORD" of God. He said in John 12 these wonderful words;
Jn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
I don't know what anyone else's reaction to that is but I just think WOW every time I read it.
That is what a prophet does. He speaks for God to the people.That is what Moses did.
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
He meant raise up from the dead.
Gentiles was not expecting a prophet and none had been promised to them, But Jesus Christ can surely function for them as the High Priest. A priest is someone who speaks to God for the people. There are types in the NT for priest and king but I am not quoting them now because my post would get too long. The King will rule over God's people and while Jesus is fulfilling his office as priest now, he very soon will come as King Jesus to rule and reign over God's people.
I charge that reformed people are nearly all deniers of the person and work of Jesus Christ in the redemption of man and cannot learn the truth because they will not believe the words they read in scripture. Failure to believe the words God has given opens the need to believe words men feed them.
The OT presents the Messiah of Israel in three consecutive offices.
1) The perfect Prophet
2) The perfect Priest
3) The perfect Potentate
The types for him in these offices in the OT were, Moses, the prophet. Aaron the priest, and David the potentate.
When Jesus came to Israel he came as the expected Prophet. He is the "WORD" of God. He said in John 12 these wonderful words;
Jn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
I don't know what anyone else's reaction to that is but I just think WOW every time I read it.
That is what a prophet does. He speaks for God to the people.That is what Moses did.
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
He meant raise up from the dead.
Gentiles was not expecting a prophet and none had been promised to them, But Jesus Christ can surely function for them as the High Priest. A priest is someone who speaks to God for the people. There are types in the NT for priest and king but I am not quoting them now because my post would get too long. The King will rule over God's people and while Jesus is fulfilling his office as priest now, he very soon will come as King Jesus to rule and reign over God's people.
I charge that reformed people are nearly all deniers of the person and work of Jesus Christ in the redemption of man and cannot learn the truth because they will not believe the words they read in scripture. Failure to believe the words God has given opens the need to believe words men feed them.
Yes, in the text of Scripture, but you have to be able to read with what A.W. Pink called 'spiritual eyes and to compare Scripture with Scripture.
That God knew that Adam would fall is a given. The question is whether God forced Him in some way, or enticed him into sin or whether, to reference the Anglican prayer book, he sinned 'by his own deliberate fault.'
'Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God;" for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death' (James 1:13-15).
‘Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die “’(Gen 2:15-17 ). The covenant (for such I deem it to be) comes in the form of a provision, a command and a warning, but a gracious promise is implied - eternal life; ‘if you don’t the forbidden fruit, you shall live.’ And since there was no death before Adam fell (Romans 5:12ff), the implied promise would not have appeared strange to Adam. He was put into the position of a tenant moving into a house. The landlord might tell him, “You can live here rent-free in return for doing the garden; you can eat all the stuff that grows in the garden, but the first time you touch the vintage claret in the cellar, you’re out!”
There is nothing there that requires us to believe that Adam's death was inevitable. As I say, he was already the possessor of eternal life. Either we have to believe that God is the author of evil and that he somehow made Adam sin, or we must accept that he fell by sharing the sinful desires of his wife and was the author of his own misfortune. Had he not eaten of the tree, he would have continued to live.
Also, as others have pointed out, there is a parallel passage in 1 Kings 2:36-37. 'Then the king sent and called for Shimei, and said to him, "Build yourself a house in Jerusalem and dwell there, and do not go out from there anywhere. For it shall be, on the day you go out and cross the Brook Kidron, know for certain you shall surely die; you blood shall be on your own head."'
Now Solomon was a cluey sort of chap. but I don't think he is ever described as a prophet. He may have suspected that Shimei wouldn't stay in Jerusalem all that long, but he didn't know that. As it happens, it took three years before Shimei absconded, and if he had let his slaves go instead of chasing after them, he would have lived many more years. Solomon's warning was just that - a warning. If you leave Jerusalem, you're going to die. Implication: if you don't leave, you won't die. As with Shimei, so with Adam.
Just a quick word on the phrase 'in the day that......' It is a Hebrew figure of speech and not to be taken strictly literally. Shimei's donkey was never going to get him to Gath and back in a single day, yet Shimei lived until he got home, and probably for a day or two afterwards.
Do you really think that Calvinists do not believe in the triple office (munus triplex -triple cure) of the Lord Jesus Christ?
Where do you think the term munus triplex comes from, or at least, who popularized the term?
"Therefore, in order that faith may find a firm basis for salvation in Christ, and thus rest in him, this principle must be laid down: the office enjoined upon Christ by the Father consists of three parts. For he was given to be prophet, king and priest." - Calvin: Institutes II. xv. 1
Comparing Scripture with Scripture gives us a physical death only (Genesis 3 speaks of a physical death and 2 Kings 7 uses exactly the same wording to refer to the certainty of a physical death).
Do you really think that Calvinists do not believe in the triple office (munus triplex -triple cure) of the Lord Jesus Christ?
Where do you think the term munus triplex comes from, or at least, who popularized the term?
"Therefore, in order that faith may find a firm basis for salvation in Christ, and thus rest in him, this principle must be laid down: the office enjoined upon Christ by the Father consists of three parts. For he was given to be prophet, king and priest." - Calvin: Institutes II. xv. 1
Alan Cross does not seem to recognize the particular office as prophet in the gospels was a fulfillment to Israel concerning their prophet. He, like all reformed, including dispensational Calvinists like McArthur, paints with a very broad brush in the gospels and does not recognize distinctions and limits in the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. The fact is no one got saved in the gospels but they were prepared for salvation through Christ. None of his apostles believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and instead of going to the tomb to watch him rise from the dead they took burial spices to anoint his dead body.They had been on all the preaching missions with Jesus Christ for over three years and had zero understanding about it because they were preaching the gospel of the kingdom, not the gospel of salvation. The kingdom could not be established in righteousness until the subjects of that kingdom were made righteous and they could not be made righteous until the blood sacrifice was made and the righteousness of their Messiah (which is his Spirit BTW) was imputed to them. Looking at the book of Acts we see God did not expect that to happen quickly but gave it seven years and confirmed his converts by water baptism. Israel was not prepared because of the opposition of her leaders who were cursed with the unpardonable sin and insured that their generation would not enter into his rest. This delayed salvation for Israel. Does this sound familiar. You should read Hebrews 3 here for a comparison with the days of Moses another failure to enter his rest and subsequent 40 years of wandering and delay..
Here is something else. It was not until Israel rejected the Spirit of God in Acts 7 that Paul was saved in preparation to be the apostle to the gentiles. God opened the door of faith in the house of Cornelius, while he was training Paul in the mountains of Arabia and revealing special and new things as it pertained to his special ministry to the gentiles. He wrote 13 letters to gentiles explaining salvation from God and instructing them in their duties toward God. Amazingly, as much emphasis as you folks put on the drawing of the Father, Paul never one time used that word in his letters. What do you think about that? Entrance into the kingdom of God is by invitation, not infusion.
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Luke 19:9-10. Your Dispensationalism is hindering your understanding, but whatever your beef with @Alan Gross, do not impute to Calvinists that which is entirely false.
There is no attempt to deal with my post, only a trotting out of your mantra.In both cases death was only certain if certain events took place. I'm not sure why you're referencing 2 Kings 7, but obviously 1 Kings 2 deals only with physical death. Let's come to Genesis 2. Do you believe that Adam was spiritually alive (c.f. Romans 6:11) before the fall and remained so afterwards, or do you believe that he was spiritually dead (c.f. Ephesians 2:1) before the Fall and remained so afterwards? Or what do you believe?
@JD731,
Just in case you're still in doubt as to whether Reformed folk uphold the Three-fold Office of Christ, here's the Baptist Catechism (Keach's).
Q. 23. What offices doth Christ execute as our Redeemer?
A. Christ, as our Redeemer, executeth the offices of a prophet (Deut 18:18, Heb 1:1-2), of a priest (Heb 4:14-15, Heb 5:5-6),and of a king (Is 9:6-7, Lk 1:32-33, John 18:37, 1 Cor 15:25), both in his estate of humiliation and exaltation.
Q. 24. How doth Christ execute the office of a prophet?
A. Christ executeth the office of a prophet, in revealing to us, by his Word (Heb 2:3) and Spirit (1 Peter 1:11), the will of God for our salvation.
Q. 25. How doth Christ execute the office of a priest?
A. Christ executeth the office of a priest, in his once offering up of himself a sacrifice to satisfy divine justice (Hebrews 9:14, 28; Acts 8:32-35), and reconcile us to God (Col 1:21-22; Hebrews 2:17), and in making continual intercession for us (Heb 9:24).
Q. 26. How doth Christ execute the office of a king?
A. Christ executeth the office of a king, in subduing us to himself, in ruling (Isaiah 33:22) and defending us (Col 1:13), and in restraining and conquering all his and our enemies (Col 2:15).
The Westminster Shorter Catechism is identical.
Just in case you're still in doubt as to whether Reformed folk uphold the Three-fold Office of Christ, here's the Baptist Catechism (Keach's).
Q. 23. What offices doth Christ execute as our Redeemer?
A. Christ, as our Redeemer, executeth the offices of a prophet (Deut 18:18, Heb 1:1-2), of a priest (Heb 4:14-15, Heb 5:5-6),and of a king (Is 9:6-7, Lk 1:32-33, John 18:37, 1 Cor 15:25), both in his estate of humiliation and exaltation.
Q. 24. How doth Christ execute the office of a prophet?
A. Christ executeth the office of a prophet, in revealing to us, by his Word (Heb 2:3) and Spirit (1 Peter 1:11), the will of God for our salvation.
Q. 25. How doth Christ execute the office of a priest?
A. Christ executeth the office of a priest, in his once offering up of himself a sacrifice to satisfy divine justice (Hebrews 9:14, 28; Acts 8:32-35), and reconcile us to God (Col 1:21-22; Hebrews 2:17), and in making continual intercession for us (Heb 9:24).
Q. 26. How doth Christ execute the office of a king?
A. Christ executeth the office of a king, in subduing us to himself, in ruling (Isaiah 33:22) and defending us (Col 1:13), and in restraining and conquering all his and our enemies (Col 2:15).
The Westminster Shorter Catechism is identical.
LOL.... Yep. I was studying 2 Kings. Gave the wrong reference.
In both cases death was only certain if certain events took place. I'm not sure why you're referencing 2 Kings 7, but obviously 1 Kings 2 deals only with physical death. Let's come to Genesis 2. Do you believe that Adam was spiritually alive (c.f. Romans 6:11) before the fall and remained so afterwards, or do you believe that he was spiritually dead (c.f. Ephesians 2:1) before the Fall and remained so afterwards? Or what do you believe?
1 Kings 2:37
For on the day you go out and cross over the brook Kidron, you will know for certain that you shall surely die; your blood shall be on your own head.”
"Surely die" us the exact same (muth muth) referring to physical death (certainty of physical death).
But what I think you are missing is we have made our distinctions clear.
I believe God told Adam that he shall not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and that in the day that he eats from it he will surely die.
If I understand, you believe God told Adam not to eat of the tree and if he does then he will die spiritually and later physically but if he does not then he can live forever.
We just have to agree to disagree.
So you believe that if Shimei had not crossed the Brook Kidron, Solomon would have had him killed anyway. And where exactly is that in the Bible?
So you believe that if Adam hadn't sinned, he would have died anyway. And where exactly is that in the Bible?
You mean apart from Irenaeus, Origen and Athanasius. And the Bible.
And while we're insulting each other, you have imbibed J.W. methods of denying the Scripture.
I do not believe there was an "if" to it. He was told not to go and the day he goes he will surely die.So you believe that if Shimei had not crossed the Brook Kidron, Solomon would have had him killed anyway. And where exactly is that in the Bible?
So you believe that if Adam hadn't sinned, he would have died anyway. And where exactly is that in the Bible?
You mean apart from Irenaeus, Origen and Athanasius. And the Bible.
And while we're insulting each other, you have imbibed J.W. methods of denying the Scripture.
That is an issue with Christians today. They make God the God of "id's" and think they hold their future in their own hands. But God always speaks from a position of authority, of sovereignty.
OK. So there are two alternatives. He goes and he dies; he doesn't go, and......... What?
Of course God speaks from a position of authority. But that does not stop Him giving conditional warnings. Loads of them in the Bible. Do you want me to list some of them for you?
Jeremiah 7:5ff comes to mind. 'If you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings, if you thoroughly execute judgements between a man and his neighbour, if you do not oppress the stranger and the fatherless...............then I will cause you to dwell in this place.......'
So what happens when they don't thoroughly amend their ways and so forth? Does God still cause them to dwell in that place? After all, He's not a God of "ifs."
We do not know what would have happened had Adam NOT ate the fruit. We do know Adam would not die because he ate the fruit without Adam eating the fruit. But we cannot make assumptions of God's Word that Adam would have never died.OK. So there are two alternatives. He goes and he dies; he doesn't go, and......... What?
Of course God speaks from a position of authority. But that does not stop Him giving conditional warnings. Loads of them in the Bible. Do you want me to list some of them for you?
Jeremiah 7:5ff comes to mind. 'If you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings, if you thoroughly execute judgements between a man and his neighbour, if you do not oppress the stranger and the fatherless...............then I will cause you to dwell in this place.......'
So what happens when they don't thoroughly amend their ways and so forth? Does God still cause them to dwell in that place? After all, He's not a God of "ifs."
If Adam did not eat the fruit then (fill in your supposition).
I believe that God is sovereign, and although I know many (perhaps you) would disagree I do believe that Adam sinned just as God Ordained he would sin because Creation from start to finish was never about Adam but about God's glory.
You will not change my mind here. God, not Adam, is sovereign over future events. A man's heart plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps (Proverbs 16:9).
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I know
OF THE GRACE OF CHRIST IN HIS STATES OF HUMILIATION AND EXALTATION,
AND IN THE OFFICES EXERCISED BY HIM IN THEM.
Of the Incarnation of Christ †
Of Christ's State of Humiliation †
Of the Active Obedience of Christ †
Of the Passive Obedience of Christ †
Of the Burial of Christ † Of the Resurrection of Christ †
Of the Ascension of Christ †
Of the Session of Christ at the Right Hand of God †
Of the Prophetic Office of Christ †
Of the Priestly Office of Christ †
Of the Intercession of Christ †
Of Christ's Blessing his People as a Priest †
Of the Kingly Office of Christ †
Of the Spiritual Reign of Christ
We know what occurred since Adam ate of the fruit but not if he obeyed God (that would have nullified Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world).
I do not lean heavily on John Gill when it comes to Christology (he taught Jesus was the Archangel Michael and I think that was a little too far).
Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 4:20 AM Pacific.
This thread will be closed sometime after 4:20 AM Pacific.
Well, we are not making suppositions; we are reading the word of God. And we read that, 'Through one man sin entered the world and death through sin,' and that 'By the one man's offense death reigned through the one.....' So if Adam had not sinned / offended, death would not have come into the world. Just believe what God tells us.
Not a supposition, it's the word of God. The Bible is all one book, and when you pick one extract, interpret it wrongly, ignore all the explanatory texts and then bounce up and down on it like a trampoline, it's no wonder that you fall into error, and very serious error at that.
God has ordained all things that come to pass, but Adan sinned by his own fault and brought disaster on himself and all his progeny. If you find that paradoxical, it is because you are putting your own fallen human logic before the Bible and you need to read, slowly and prayerfully, Isaiah 55:8-9 and Romans 11:33-36.
I have known for a long time that I will not change your mind You are wedded to your human logic and only God can bring you to your senses. I have said before that I take issue with you only in the fear that new Christians may be led astray by you. Of course God is sovereign over events, but He is not the author of evil.
Reference God not being the God of "ifs," read the following texts which were all given at pivotal moments in Israel's history. Exodus 19:5; 1 Samuel 12:14-15 and 2 Chronicles 7:14, 17-22; Isaiah 1:18-20.
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