A Complaint About A Lack of Logic

[37818]

Well, I told the apostle Paul you would not believe.I was right. However, the reason you are giving for not believing is illogical. Thanks for making my point even though it saddens me.

You are irrational and a false accuser. I said nothing that contradicted the Apostle Paul.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I did (look back, I corrected my comment)

'The moving finger writes and having writ,
Moves on; nor all thy promises nor wit
Can call it back, nor cancel half a line;
Nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.'

Unless of course you are a mod, when like Orwell's Ministry of Truth you get to correct history whenever it suits. The rest of us plebs only get an hour.
Did I imagine it or were there complaints not too long ago about mods changing posts?

 

[JD731]

You are irrational and a false accuser. I said nothing that contradicted the Apostle Paul.

Well, I must apologize for my lack of understanding your post. I thought the implication of your comments was that Adam was in the image of God despite the fall and all his offspring are in the image of God by virtue of their physical births. If that is not what you meant then I am sorry. I do not mean to falsely accuse anyone.

 

[37818]

I thought the implication of your comments was that Adam was in the image of God despite the fall . . . .

Adam's fall did not cause mankind to cease being made in God's image (in evidence Genesis 9:6). And the Apostle Paul teaches nothing to the contrary, 1 Cornithians 15.

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate,

Your accusation is, of course, false (anyone can see the post is still there, as is my post where I changed my mind).

I think you misunderstood my statement that I corrected my post to mean I edited that post. I did not. I corrected it in another post.

I take it this was just an oversight or simple error (my words could have meant I edited the post as well, although had you checked it was not changed) . You wrongly accused me, but it's no big deal. We all make mistakes.

In the future, though, if you come to these types of assumptions I would appreciate it if you would just pm me prior to trying to making such claims. That would save unnecessary conflict and wrong accusations.

I make enough mistakes that you'll have legitimate faults to expose, if that's what you are looking for. But let's keep it to real ones. No need to add to my "fault list" as it is long enough as is.

 

[JD731]

Adam's fall did not cause mankind to cease being made in God's image (in evidence Genesis 9:6). And the Apostle Paul teaches nothing to the contrary, 1 Cornithians 15.

Before I take back my apology, will you explain how Gen 9:6 makes your case in the face of all the things I quoted and say how that one verse settles it once and for all?

 

[37818]

Before I take back my apology, will you explain how Gen 9:6 makes your case in the face of all the things I quoted and say how that one verse settles it once and for all?

The reason that God commands capital punishment for killing another human being, the reason it is murder, is do to the fact humans are made in God's image. ". . . for in the image of God made he man." Genesis 9:6 is after the flood and so well after the fall. That status of being made in God's image had not changed. Your seeming lack of understanding this is really astounding.

 

[Alan Gross]

Thank you 37818 for weighing in because your statement gives me an opportunity to question your logic. Not about what your statement says, because it is extremely true and logical. Man is created in the image of God. But I know what you intend to convey by highlighting the word "is." You want us to believe that every man who is born into the world is in the image of God.Besides the fact it is just demonstrably untrue, it is illogical.

Jesus Christ is presented in scripture as the God man. This means he is the man who is God and God who is man.When he presented himself to his own people, Israel, as the son of God, they did not believe him. He did not look like God. He looked like them. He was in fact common looking. Nobody could tell he was different than them just by looking at him.

Isa 53:2 He shall grow up before him as a root out of dry ground, 3) he hath no form nor comeliness and when we shall see him there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Here is what they said:

Jn 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

However he was different than they were. He was in the image of God. The scriptures clearly states this;

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his (God's) person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

That is the difference between him and those people he spoke to in Jn 6. They were not in the image of God.

Our Lord Jesus Christ;
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created,


2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

In your view we have the man whose gospel is the light and who is the image of God shining to other men who are the image of God? That is not what we get from the scriptures. We get from the scriptures that through Jesus Christ we receive the image of Christ, who is God.In this way we have the image of God renewed in us who are his.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Excuse me just a minute while I quiz the apostle Paul;

Say, Brother Paul; how was it you said we are changed into the same image of God as Jesus Christ? Member 2618978 on the Baptist board thinks all men are in the image of God. May I believe you and not him because I don't think he will change his mind about anything. Do you think the change comes by the "Spirit of the Lord?" I have read your first letter to the Corinthians I read some more about the image. I will tell Member 2618978 about that. Thank you for your time.


1 Cor 15: 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

At least admit there is a difference between the two.

If Jesus looked like me and you what was different about him? I have a body, so did he, I have a soul, so did he, He was born with the Holy Ghost of God indwelling him, I was not. That is the difference and is the image of God. I have quoted a verse that says so. There are no verses that disagrees with that.

So, let's look again at Adam;


Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:


Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Gen 5:3 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Adam was not like God anymore and Seth was not like God, he was like Adam. He did not have the Spirit. He had body and soul. He was dead spiritually, meaning he was separated from God, who is a Spirit.

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So, here is the logic. What is it that Jesus Christ did for us in his body on the cross? If it is the Spirit he wants to give us to make us like God but he can't because of the sin that separates us.Sin,it caused Adam to die spiritually. The only thing that God will accept as the remedy for sin, the perfect blood of his Son, I would say his death was to take away the sin so he could give us his Spirit. He was dead. He was dead for three days. He was not alive again until the Spirit came back into his body, along with his soul, when the Spirit resurrected him.

So, now, the men who wrote my Bible says that God gives his Spirit, who is the life of God, to everyone and anyone who believes in Jesus as their payment for their sins. He poured his Spirit out as a driving rain, first on the Jewish nation, and then ten years later on the gentile world. He poured him out in such abundance that if he was manifest in the color blue so we could see him he would be over the head of the most wicked man alive and all a thirsty man must do is open his mouth and drink. He will never thirst again when he does.

He is waiting for men to drink.

This is logical and it is true.

How is Jesus Christ waiting for dead men to drink, logical or true?

 

[JD731]

The reason that God commands capital punishment for killing another human being, the reason it is murder, is do to the fact humans are made in God's image. ". . . for in the image of God made he man." Genesis 9:6 is after the flood and so well after the fall. That status of being made in God's image had not changed. Your seeming lack of understanding this is really astounding.

You have based your whole argument on a verse of scripture that neither affirms nor denies the present image of God in Noah and his family who got off the ark and those born later. Neither did you present a reason for God to be concerned that men in the NT be conformed to the image of his son by the Spirit of God if the image of God and the image of Christ are different, which must be the case if what you are saying is true. Thank God it is not, otherwise we would just have a conglomeration of silliness that don’t make any sense at all.

Are the relevant passages of scripture that addresses the issue of the image of God in the NT not even worthy of an honorable mention much less a consideration that they just might shed light on the subject and offer instruction in what we should believe about it? You have just settled down on Gen 9:6 and all the doctrine is contain in it as far as you are concerned, context be damned?

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt when I apologized for accusing you of misrepresenting the nature of Adam after the fall and all his offspring as well as contradicting the great apostle Paul. I take it back now because you are guilty of both.

 

[JD731]

How is Jesus Christ waiting for dead men to drink, logical or true?

That is not my invitation, it is his. I just quoted him saying it. He is alive and listening, ask him.

 

[Alan Gross]

That is not my invitation, it is his. I just quoted him saying it. He is alive and listening, ask him.

"You Will Not Come to Me that you May Have Life" John 5:40.

"He is waiting for men to drink."

If He is waiting for men, He Will Wait, Forever.

Jesus Commands to drink AND if the Spiritual Power is Given to drink of the Rivers of water that Flow into Eternal Life, it is God the Father that Draws, Jesus Who Accomplished Eternal Salvation for those the Father Draws, and The Holy Spirit Gives that lost soul The New Spiritual Birth.

Otherwise, they remain dead, in The Spirit Realm, with Nothing but trespasses and sins to bring to God.

 

[37818]

@JD731
Romans 2:1, ". . . Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. . . ."

 

[JD731]

"You Will Not Come to Me that you May Have Life" John 5:40.

"He is waiting for men to drink."

If He is waiting for men, He Will Wait, Forever.

Jesus Commands to drink AND if the Spiritual Power is Given to drink of the Rivers of water that Flow into Eternal Life, it is God the Father that Draws, Jesus Who Accomplished Eternal Salvation for those the Father Draws, and The Holy Spirit Gives that lost soul The New Spiritual Birth.

Otherwise, they remain dead, in The Spirit Realm, with Nothing but trespasses and sins to bring to God.

The infatuation with the “drawing” of God by men who think they have been drawn by God without a scintilla of evidence except your own personal declaration that you are a member of the prechosen elect is problematic to me. You cannot prove that from the Bible or from anything that has to do with yourself. To the credit of Calvinists none ever try. Your salvation is dependent entirely on subjective opinions about yourself. Prove me wrong. Give me a testimony of God making your election sure. Until then I am going to believe you are just plain ole deceived.

 

[JonC]

'The moving finger writes and having writ,
Moves on; nor all thy promises nor wit
Can call it back, nor cancel half a line;
Nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.'

Unless of course you are a mod, when like Orwell's Ministry of Truth you get to correct history whenever it suits. The rest of us plebs only get an hour.
Did I imagine it or were there complaints not too long ago about mods changing posts?

The post you are accusing me of changing is post #34.

In post #34 I said we have “God telling Adam that if he eats of the fruit he will surely die”.

This post has not, as you claim, been changed. It still says the same thing.

Post# 75 does differ in opinion because I said that “God is not a God of if’s” and then I corrected my previous statement by pointing out that what the Bible actually says is “God commanded Adam not to eat and told him in the day he did he would surely die” (no “ifs”).


I am pretty sure that there is no way on earth that you would even consider acknowledging that you made an error. I do not expect you to correct the claim. You don’t seem the type. But I do want you to understand at least what I am saying.


Initially I spoke of the issue as conditional (if Adam eats then death) but I corrected my error because this is not what the Bible states. I have corrected my view to insist that the verse in Genesis is a command given with consequences (no “if you obey” or “if you disobey” but on the day you eat you will surely die).

Whether or not you admit the mistake is not really my concern (that is you, not me). BUT do you understand what I am saying (do you understand how I corrected my comments in Post #34 by excluding the "if" in the text)?

 

[Alan Gross]

The infatuation with the “drawing” of God by men who think they have been drawn by God without a scintilla of evidence except your own personal declaration that you are a member of the prechosen elect is problematic to me. You cannot prove that from the Bible or from anything that has to do with yourself. To the credit of Calvinists none ever try. Your salvation is dependent entirely on subjective opinions about yourself. Prove me wrong. Give me a testimony of God making your election sure. Until then I am going to believe you are just plain ole deceived.

"You Will Not Come to Me that you May Have Life" John 5:40.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@Martin Marprelate,

Your accusation is, of course, false (anyone can see the post is still there, as is my post where I changed my mind).

I think you misunderstood my statement that I corrected my post to mean I edited that post. I did not. I corrected it in another post.

I take it this was just an oversight or simple error (my words could have meant I edited the post as well, although had you checked it was not changed) . You wrongly accused me, but it's no big deal. We all make mistakes.

In the future, though, if you come to these types of assumptions I would appreciate it if you would just pm me prior to trying to making such claims. That would save unnecessary conflict and wrong accusations.

I make enough mistakes that you'll have legitimate faults to expose, if that's what you are looking for. But let's keep it to real ones. No need to add to my "fault list" as it is long enough as is.

My apology.
When you said that you had corrected your comment, I could not (still cannot) see where you had done so, so I assumed that you had tampered with your post.
I am glad to see that I was mistaken; I should have checked.

 

[JonC]

My apology.
When you said that you had corrected your comment, I could not (still cannot) see where you had done so, so I assumed that you had tampered with your post.
I am glad to see that I was mistaken; I should have checked.

Thanks. No big deal.

I had assumed that the passage was an "if" statement. My assumption was incorrect. I went off another members presentation of the passage and should have checked Scripture before responding. It sounded right so I went with it. I did not catch it until later on.

So much for memory. I forget where I put my keys . I should have looked up the verse at the start.

 

[JD731]

"You Will Not Come to Me that you May Have Life" John 5:40.

Who would not come? Adam? Noah? Malachi?

Who would not come?

Could it have anything to do with these?

John 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

That is a historical statement. It is written in the past tense. It is written 60 years after it happened and it is written by an eye witness about someone else. The reader can either believe it or not.

Now if a man can read the 4 gospel accounts of Jesus Christ and not understand that his ministry was to his own exclusively then there is no help for that man and probably no salvation. My bible says a man must believe God’s word to be saved.

Another man testified later, chronologically, 28 years after Jesus Christ had been slain by his own people and had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven, and said this;

Romans 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Paul wrote this from Corinth in Acts 18 and after he had suffered much abuse from the people he was praying for.

How did he say they could be saved?

Romans 10:8-11
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The next quote I am posting comes straight out of the heart of God;

Romans 10:18-21
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Israel was not ignorant of these things
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


One would think by reading this that it was something that had happened at the writing of this letter in AD 58, or was happening. God did send special chosen preachers out if one can believe the record of Acts. They went to no one else for the first 7 years explaining the desire of God to save them and how his arms were stretched out to them.

The point is, there is context and structure to my Bible and the verse you quoted to me is not written to me. It is profitable me for understanding God but it is not written to me or about me or you. There are 13 bible books that are written to me and you but the gospel of John is not addressing us. It helps make my 13 books understandable but I honor the context.

All of the Christian faith must be understood in the context of the first 4000 years of human history. God has not revealed anything since he closed his Book. He has not spoken another word. He has prophesied about the future but it was from way back then.

You could not be a Calvinist if you would honor context.

 

[Alan Gross]

Who would not come? Adam? Noah? Malachi?

Who would not come?

Could it have anything to do with these?

John 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

That is a historical statement. It is written in the past tense. It is written 60 years after it happened and it is written by an eye witness about someone else. The reader can either believe it or not.

Now if a man can read the 4 gospel accounts of Jesus Christ and not understand that his ministry was to his own exclusively then there is no help for that man and probably no salvation. My bible says a man must believe God’s word to be saved.

Another man testified later, chronologically, 28 years after Jesus Christ had been slain by his own people and had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven, and said this;

Romans 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Paul wrote this from Corinth in Acts 18 and after he had suffered much abuse from the people he was praying for.

How did he say they could be saved?

Romans 10:8-11
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

threw\ou\=
-+*scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The next quote I am posting comes straight out of the heart of God;

Romans 10:18-21
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Israel was not ignorant of these things
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


One would think by reading this that it was something that had happened at the writing of this letter in AD 58, or was happening. God did send special chosen preachers out if one can believe the record of Acts. They went to no one else for the first 7 years explaining the desire of God to save them and how his arms were stretched out to them.

The point is, there is context and structure to my Bible and the verse you quoted to me is not written to me. It is profitable me for understanding God but it is not written to me or about me or you. There are 13 bible books that are written to me and you but the gospel of John is not addressing us. It helps make my 13 books understandable but I honor the context.

All of the Christian faith must be understood in the context of the first 4000 years of human history. God has not revealed anything since he closed his Book. He has not spoken another word. He has prophesied about the future but it was from way back then.

You could not be a Calvinist if you would honor context.

You threw out the four Gospels quicker than a snake striking.

I'm not a Calvinist.

Jesus is not, either.

King James Bible
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

I'm glad the Jews interpreted what their language means, to themselves.

Who would not come?

Answer: all those the Father Did Not Draw.

 

[atpollard]

You could not be a Calvinist if you would honor context.

Rubbish, stuff and nonsense.
Calvinists are ALWAYS arguing the context of a verse to determine its meaning.

We simply refuse to believe that Jesus came EXCLUSIVELY to the Jews in the 4 Gospels because of all His interactions with non Jews. We refuse to believe that His words in the 4 Gospels are for Jews only, since God is not God of only the Jews and he did not die for only the Jews.