Indeed. The warning to Shimei uses the same exact Hebrew phrase—dying, you will die. Meaning, the moment you cross that bridge, your death will become certain.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
A Complaint About A Lack of Logic
- Thread starter JD731
- Start date
- Status
Indeed. The warning to Shimei uses the same exact Hebrew phrase—dying, you will die. Meaning, the moment you cross that bridge, your death will become certain.
Your example is fallacious in itself. Adam was not SFAIK ticketed for speeding. If you have Biblical evidence that he was I'm sure we all want to hear it.
What possible sense does it make to tell your son, "If you do not clean your room you are grounded, and if you do clean your room you're still grounded"?
We have been through this stuff before. If you speed, you get a ticket; if you don't speed, you don't get a ticket. If you drop litter you get a fine; if you don't drop litter you don't get a fine. And so on.
It is my belief that Adam was in fact under the whole of the Moral Law, but that is not the point. God told him that if he ate the fruit he would die; he ate it and he died; if he hadn't eaten it, he wouldn't have died or God is a liar, like the robber who says, "Give me your watch or I'll shoot; you give him your watch and he still shoots. You may think of God being like that, but I don't.
Bringing your fallen human 'logic' and pitting it against the word of God is unwise.
The issue is logic. God has given man intelligence.
God told Adam that IF he ate of the fruit he would die. You say this implies that IF Adam did not eat of the fruit he would never die. That is illogical. It is a logical fallacy. And it is wrong.
What IF Adam did not eat of the fruit but got drunk and killed Eve. By your standard God would be powerless. The point is your argument is wrong. I think that most can at least see it is wrong.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It's it obvious by now that "them" = all mankind is in God's image.
It's obvious by now the phrase "in that day" is a death sentence to be carried out later. If you can come up with something fresh, share it. otherwise, drop it.
37818
Well-Known Member
The fall does not change the truth man is made in the image of God, see Genesis 9:6.
37818
Well-Known Member
Silly.
If I was suggesting this, you might have a point, but I'm not. You are reading that into what I'm saying. If you were ever a Calvinist as you claim, you know what the argument is.
What IF Adam did not eat of the fruit but got drunk and killed Eve. By your standard God would be powerless. The point is your argument is wrong. I think that most can at least see it is wrong.[/QUOTE]
So why didn't God just cut to the chase and say, "Adam you're going to die whether you eat the apple or not."
The fact is that there was no death until Adam fell, and there was afterwards. Romans 5:12ff passim.
Not silly at all. Fact. Genesis 7:22. 'All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, all that was on the dry land, perished.'
Then I misunderstood you, and apologize.
What I understood you to be saying was God told Adam that IF he eats of the fruit he will surely die therefore had Adam not eaten of the fruit he would not have died.
The reason I objected is that there are two issues with that kind of thinking.
1. It is a logical fallacy (denying the antecedent) because we do not know the other side of the "if".
2. God did not tell Adam IF he ate of the fruit he would die but commanded him not to eat of the fruit and declared "for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die".
God does not "cut to the chase" because Creation is to glorify God (even the process), to magnify His name. Otherwise God could have just skipped over this creation and jumped to the new one.
I do know Calvinism, but that is not the point here. We have to use our words and express what we believe. I was a Calvinist, but God corrected that error in me
Galatians 5:7. More later.I do know Calvinism, but that is not the point here. We have to use our words and express what we believe. I was a Calvinist, but God corrected that error in me
Wrong verse: 2 Corinthians 3:18 is more accurate
37818
Well-Known Member
It is silly to think plants are not a living thing.
I agree. Anyone doubt this can come and look at my tomato plants that died for lack of water.
Genesis 2:16-17 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
Notice that God never tells Adam IF you eat from it you will surely die. God commands Adam not to eat of the fruit and tells him that in the day he eats of it death will be a certainty.
There is no room to even contemplate a possibility that Adam could have been immortal. God commands Adam and tells Adam the consequences that will occur when Adam disobeys.
Genesis 3:17-19 17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
Adam ate of the fruit.
What was the consequences of Adam’s disobedience?
1. The ground was cursed and Adam would have to work to eat of it.
2. Adam would return to the dust from which he was taken (Adam would die and his body would decay).
What change(s) happened to Adam?
Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—
Adam became like God knowing good and evil.
What did God do because of this change?
Genesis 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
Adam was sent out of the Garden and back to the ground from which Adam was made (remember, Adam was not created in the Garden but outside of the Garden and then placed in it).
If we stick with the Bible we do not end up with man-made doctrines about Adam being somehow transformed to an immortal being to a real boy. We do not end up believing that Adam’s nature was somehow changed because he sinned. We do not hold that Adam died spiritually because Genesis 3:19 specifically tells us of this death that Adam would experience.
Notice that God never tells Adam IF you eat from it you will surely die. God commands Adam not to eat of the fruit and tells him that in the day he eats of it death will be a certainty.
There is no room to even contemplate a possibility that Adam could have been immortal. God commands Adam and tells Adam the consequences that will occur when Adam disobeys.
Genesis 3:17-19 17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
Adam ate of the fruit.
What was the consequences of Adam’s disobedience?
1. The ground was cursed and Adam would have to work to eat of it.
2. Adam would return to the dust from which he was taken (Adam would die and his body would decay).
What change(s) happened to Adam?
Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—
Adam became like God knowing good and evil.
What did God do because of this change?
Genesis 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
Adam was sent out of the Garden and back to the ground from which Adam was made (remember, Adam was not created in the Garden but outside of the Garden and then placed in it).
If we stick with the Bible we do not end up with man-made doctrines about Adam being somehow transformed to an immortal being to a real boy. We do not end up believing that Adam’s nature was somehow changed because he sinned. We do not hold that Adam died spiritually because Genesis 3:19 specifically tells us of this death that Adam would experience.
Hi JD731, I pretty much agree with your understanding of scripture, but I have a few nitpicks which you may or may not incorporate.
1) Rather than what changed about Adam, I think the idea is what changed about Adam and his descendants as a consequence of the Fall.
2) Assuming on that day refers to a 24 hour day, and Adam did not physically die on the day he ate the forbidden fruit, but physically lived another 900+ years, Adam must have "spiritually" died on that day. Spiritually he was somehow "separated" from God, and that separation is called spiritual death and the result is to be spiritually dead. However, the consequence of being "spiritually dead" is not defined, so some speculate the result is "total spiritual inability" but that is obviously false. The people of Romans 1:20 had enough spiritual ability in their fallen state to understand God's attributes from what He has made so they are without excuse.
3) We know that Adam volitionally sinned, rather than being deceived. 1 Timothy 2:14, Romans 5:14 where the people without the Law still physically died, yet they had not sinned like Adam sinned, i.e. violating what they knew was God's command.
4) We know that as a consequence of the Fall, all "in Adam" die. (1 Corinthians 15:22) And we are made sinners. Romans 5:19 And I think by logical necessity being made sinners means we are made separated from God thus made spiritually dead.
5) As a created human, we have our human spirit which God forms within us, Zechariah 12:1 We also have a soul.1 Corinthians 15:45
6) I think the people from which the gospel is hidden refers to Soil #1 of Matthew 13, people who have harden their hearts by the practice of sin such that they can no longer understand the gospel, But the rest of fallen mankind can understand spiritual milk (1 Corinthians 3:1-3) because Paul as to "men of flesh."
But do not let my differing over nits detract from the obvious Calvinism is bogus.
It's a distinction without a difference.
Only in your reasoning. Your reasoning may be correct BUT it does not reflect what is actually written in the Bible.
The difference, of course, is your twist on the passage makes it a conditional statement. Add to that the logical fallacy of denying the antecedent then you introduce the idea that Adam was immortal and changed to a mortal being.
But if you stick with what the Bible actually says - God commands Adam not to eat of the fruit and tells him what will happen when he does - that error is avoided.
Those little twists, those things people see as a meaningless change that does not make a difference, is often at the center of heresies.
Scripture IS that important. If it did not make a difference I suspect people would never have changed it.
This is actually a bad argument for Adam's spiritual death, long debunked. Adam did spiritually die, but bad arguments don't help the cause.
The Hebrew idiom dying you will die, does not mean immediately you will die, but rather certainly you will die. God was telling Adam that his death would become certain on the day he ate.
The same idiom is used in the Shimei King Solomon account. When Shamei crossed the bridge he was commanded not to, he also became marked for death, right at that moment, even though he didn't actually die until a later date.
Last edited:
The difference is, God's used the specific phrase in the day. It specifically means that Adam would be marked for death on the specific day he disobeyed God. This is why your view cannot be compatible with the Text. Your view is that Adam proved what he already was by failing to obey God. The Text, however, says Adam was marked for death on a specific day—the day he ate.
There's no way around this. For in the day you eat, dying you will die. God is specifically linking Adam's death to his disobedience.
If Adam's disobedience merely proved he was already dying, God would not have said what he said.
Last edited:
A common nomenclature error of old earthers. They conflate modern scientific terms with ancient terms translated into modern english.
I've heard some creationists say plants and insects are better understood as biological machines, rather than living beings. Makes sense, being they lack any type of soul.
- Status