A Complaint About A Lack of Logic

[Van]

This is actually a bad argument for Adam's spiritual death, long debunked. Adam did spiritually die, but bad arguments don't help the cause.

The Hebrew idiom dying you will die, does not mean immediately you will die, but rather certainly you will die. God was telling Adam that his death would become certain on the day he ate.

The same idiom is used in the Shimei King Solomon account. When Shamei crossed the bridge he was commanded not to, he also became marked for death, right at that moment, even though he didn't actually die until a later date.

If I am following, you are saying on that day your death will become certain. Rather than you will spiritually die and later physically die. Interesting.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Indeed. The warning to Shimei uses the same exact Hebrew phrase—dying, you will die. Meaning, the moment you cross that bridge, your death will become certain.

This is exactly right. For three years Shimei did not cross the Brook Kidron, and for three years Solomon did not have him executed. But in the day that he did so, his fate was sealed. As with Shimei, so with Adam.

 

[JonC]

The difference is, God's used the specific phrase in the day. It specifically means that Adam would be marked for death on the specific day he disobeyed God. This is why your view cannot be compatible with the Text. Your view is that Adam proved what he already was by failing to obey God. The Text, however, says Adam was marked for death on a specific day—the day he ate.

There's no way around this. For in the day you eat, dying you will die. God is specifically linking Adam's death to his disobedience.

If Adam's disobedience merely proved he was already dying, God would not have said what he said.

The Bible does not support your claim. The passage specifically says on that day Adam would surely die (not that he would die on that day). You are rearranging things to fit your theory. Genesis 3 tells us exactly what this death is (and it happened long after Adam sinned).

 

[JonC]

If I am following, you are saying on that day your death will become certain. ... Interesting.

That is exactly what is said.

Think about how many times this type of repetition is used (here death death). How many other times (like amen amen) would we say it means two occasions or types?

None.... Never. We always take it to be emphatic or certain.

But why do people make an exception here?

I believe it is because they have already decided prior to Scripture.

 

[Calminian]

The Bible does not support your claim. The passage specifically says on that day Adam would surely die (not that he would die on that day)..

You are simply wrong about this Jon. This is not my argument, this is a well-known Hebrew idiom which denotes certainty, not immediacy. As MM mentioned, we have another example of this exact phrase in the Shemei Solomon account. I would invite you to read up on this.

Why did Adam not Die Immediately?
Alden Bass (Apologetics Press)

Why Didn’t Adam and Eve Die the Instant They Ate the Fruit?
Bodie Hodge (Answer in Genesis)

Genesis 2:17—“you shall surely die”
Dr. Terry Mortenson (Answers in Genesis)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It is silly to think plants are not a living thing.

I think you need to look at the text to understand how 'living things' are described in the Bible.
Genesis 7:4b. '....I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.' Yet God did not destroy the fish or the crops. Genesis 7:22 again: 'All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, all that was on the dry land, perished.' 'Breath of life' is the key. Fish and plants do not breath in the same way that animals and birds do.

 

[Van]

That is exactly what is said.

Think about how many times this type of repetition is used (here death death). How many other times (like amen amen) would we say it means two occasions or types?

None.... Never. We always take it to be emphatic or certain.

But why do people make an exception here?

I believe it is because they have already decided prior to Scripture.

As I understand it, the dying you will die, does not suggest in any way that spiritual death did not occur on that day. Only that death was certain, and therefore the fact physical death occurred later is a non problem.

 

[Calminian]

I think you need to look at the text to understand how 'living things' are described in the Bible.
Genesis 7:4b. '....I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.' Yet God did not destroy the fish or the crops. Genesis 7:22 again: 'All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, all that was on the dry land, perished.' 'Breath of life' is the key. Fish and plants do not breath in the same way that animals and birds do.

Also blood is a definer of life.

Lev. 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

Lev. 17:14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, “You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.”

Deut. 12:23 But be sure you do not eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the meat.​

 

[Calminian]

As I understand it, the dying you will die, does not suggest in any way that spiritual death did not occur on that day. Only that death was certain, and therefore the fact physical death occurred later is a non problem.

Correct. The passage is not speaking of spiritual death per se, but in no way takes away from the reality of Adam's spiritual death.

 

[JonC]

Correct. The passage is not speaking of spiritual death per se, but in no way takes away from the reality of Adam's spiritual death.

Another interesting fact of the passage is this separation was not a direct result of his sin but of his eyes being opened (which was a direct result of his actions).

 

[37818]

I think you need to look at the text to understand how 'living things' are described in the Bible.
Genesis 7:4b. '....I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.' Yet God did not destroy the fish or the crops. Genesis 7:22 again: 'All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, all that was on the dry land, perished.' 'Breath of life' is the key. Fish and plants do not breath in the same way that animals and birds do.

There are plant fossilization from the flood as well as sea animals. Plants provide what is needed for that breath of life, as well as the green plant sea plankton.

 

[Calminian]

There are plant fossilization from the flood as well as sea animals. Plants provide what is needed for that breath of life, as well as the green plant sea plankton.

In a word, wrong.

 

[Alan Gross]

I have been reading comments in the thread about Pelaganists, whatever that is, and in the attempt to define terms and justify positions and some false doctrines like total depravity and other doctrines, Adam is very much maligned and misrepresented. For instance there are people on this forum that disagree on what changed about Adam when he sinned. The texts tells us clearly and plainly what was different about him and other parts of scripture gives additional information.

Here is what the text says changed about him.

1) He died
2) His eyes were opened that he could know good and evil

Ge 3:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

This is all that we know that changed. It seems that Adam knew more, not less, as Calvinism teaches.

Here is the logic. If this is the source of the problem between God and man and Jesus Christ is the fix, can we not look at what Jesus Christ our Lord did and have a good idea about everything in between.

First of all, the death, burial, and resurrection of the second man and the last Adam, Jesus Christ, made living possible where men were dead.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Logic: these people who God wants to give eternal life through Jesus Christ are not in the graveyard covered with dirt. They are people who are walking around, having families, and living life. However, they must be dead in some way or why would anyone want to make a live person alive if he is already alive?

Any chance they would be dead in the same way Adam was dead in the day he sinned but before he was put in a grave 930 years later? Is the life that God wants to give as a gift different than the life Adam possessed before he died in the day he sinned? Here is what God said about Adam when he created him.

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here is what we are told in Job;

Job 33:4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Here is the fix after the resurrection;

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Adam before the fall was in the image of God (trinity) Born in Adam we are in the image of Adam (body and soul) after the fall. Born of God, we are in the image of Jesus Christ (trinity soul body Spirit) who is the image of God (Father Son Holy Ghost).

All beings who have the Spirit are sons of God. Adam was the son of God before the fall.See Lk 3:38.He is the only man who was, until Jesus Christ was born. God gave the Spirit to him without measure and from his conception.

This is logical as well as true. All this election stuff and total depravity and only certain people are chosen of God to be saved is giant red wheels and is confusion. It is tragic!

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Gen 5:1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

This is simple if you think about it.

Equating The Doctrines of God in The Bible with the name of a man is Total Dravaity exhibited.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The issue is logic. God has given man intelligence.

Indeed. And He expects us to use it.

Genesis 2:16-17 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Notice that God never tells Adam IF you eat from it you will surely die. God commands Adam not to eat of the fruit and tells him that in the day he eats of it death will be a certainty.

There is no room to even contemplate a possibility that Adam could have been immortal. God commands Adam and tells Adam the consequences that will occur when Adam disobeys.

There was no death (see post #65) until the Fall for the very good reason that there was no sin. To call Adam 'immortal' is probably a redundancy. Death did not exist. 'Therefore just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin.' 'For if by the one man's offense death reigned.....' Death came with, and on account of, sin. At the end of the Sixth Day, God pronounced the world 'very good.' There was no sin in it and therefore, no death.

Genesis 3:17-19 17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

Adam ate of the fruit.

What was [sic] the consequences of Adam’s disobedience?

1. The ground was cursed and Adam would have to work to eat of it.
2. Adam would return to the dust from which he was taken (Adam would die and his body would decay).

The consequences of Adam's sin were cataclysmic. The whole world was changed. 'For the creation was subject to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it......'

What change(s) happened to Adam?

Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—

Adam became like God knowing good and evil.

Adam became a sinner and so did all his posterity, and death and decay came into the world. Compare Genesis 5:1 with Genesis 5:3. Before the Fall, there was no procedure to deal with sin. Adam and Eve had no covering for their sin, but that didn't matter because there was no sin. As soon as they fell into sin, they realised their need for a covering, but a man-made covering is totally unacceptable to a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). So God supplied a covering for the pair (Genesis 3:21), and for that to happen one or more innocent creatures had to die, thereby establishing the doctrine that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.

What did God do because of this change?

Genesis 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

Adam was sent out of the Garden and back to the ground from which Adam was made (remember, Adam was not created in the Garden but outside of the Garden and then placed in it).

God placed a curse on all creation (see above), but He also revealed the plan that had been there from all eternity to satisfy His righteous anger against sin. In Adam, all is sin and judgement; in Christ, all is righteousness and mercy. Compare Genesis 3:18a with Isaiah 55:13. The Lord Jesus wore the thorns upon His brow.

If we stick with the Bible we do not end up with man-made doctrines about Adam being somehow transformed to [??] an immortal being to a real boy. We do not end up believing that Adam’s nature was somehow changed because he sinned. We do not hold that Adam died spiritually because Genesis 3:19 specifically tells us of this death that Adam would experience.

If you stick with the Bible you can see that the Fall brought about the most immense changes imaginable, that to Adam being one. You simply need to read the Bible with spiritual eyes.

God told Adam that IF he ate of the fruit he would die. You say this implies that IF Adam did not eat of the fruit he would never die. That is illogical. It is a logical fallacy. And it is wrong.

Adam was already in an undying state. death was something alien to him. God told him that if he sinned, he would die, and he did. I am not interested in your faulty,earthbound human logic. If you tell your son that if he doesn't tidy his room you will ground him, he doesn't reply, "Dad, you're going to ground me anyway, so there's no point in my tidying my room."

What IF Adam did not eat of the fruit but got drunk and killed Eve. By your standard God would be powerless. The point is your argument is wrong. I think that most can at least see it is wrong.[/QUOTE]

 

[JonC]

Indeed. And He expects us to use it.

There was no death (see post #65) until the Fall for the very good reason that there was no sin. To call Adam 'immortal' is probably a redundancy. Death did not exist. 'Therefore just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin.' 'For if by the one man's offense death reigned.....' Death came with, and on account of, sin. At the end of the Sixth Day, God pronounced the world 'very good.' There was no sin in it and therefore, no death.

The consequences of Adam's sin were cataclysmic. The whole world was changed. 'For the creation was subject to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it......'

Adam became a sinner and so did all his posterity, and death and decay came into the world. Compare Genesis 5:1 with Genesis 5:3. Before the Fall, there was no procedure to deal with sin. Adam and Eve had no covering for their sin, but that didn't matter because there was no sin. As soon as they fell into sin, they realised their need for a covering, but a man-made covering is totally unacceptable to a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). So God supplied a covering for the pair (Genesis 3:21), and for that to happen one or more innocent creatures had to die, thereby establishing the doctrine that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.

God placed a curse on all creation (see above), but He also revealed the plan that had been there from all eternity to satisfy His righteous anger against sin. In Adam, all is sin and judgement; in Christ, all is righteousness and mercy. Compare Genesis 3:18a with Isaiah 55:13. The Lord Jesus wore the thorns upon His brow.


If you stick with the Bible you can see that the Fall brought about the most immense changes imaginable, that to Adam being one. You simply need to read the Bible with spiritual eyes.

Adam was already in an undying state. death was something alien to him. God told him that if he sinned, he would die, and he did. I am not interested in your faulty,earthbound human logic. If you tell your son that if he doesn't tidy his room you will ground him, he doesn't reply, "Dad, you're going to ground me anyway, so there's no point in my tidying my room."

What IF Adam did not eat of the fruit but got drunk and killed Eve. By your standard God would be powerless. The point is your argument is wrong. I think that most can at least see it is wrong.

[/QUOTE]
I agree. There was no death until Adam ate of the fruit. That is what God told Adam (on the day you eat of the fruit you will surely die). Death entered the world through Adam's transgression.

I think we need to stick with what is written in the Bible. That is what is written in 1 Cor. 4.

So we can agree on a lot. Through Adam death entered the world and death spread to all men for all have sinned.

I'm not going to get caught up in illustrations because they all are flawed. I did not even need to go there because Scripture does not present God's command as an "if" issue.

God is not a God of "ifs". God commanded Adam not to eat and told him in the day he did he would surely die.

Let's just leave Scripture as it is and not twist it to say what is not there.

 

[JD731]

It's it obvious by now that "them" = all mankind is in God's image.

It's obvious by now the phrase "in that day" is a death sentence to be carried out later. If you can come up with something fresh, share it. otherwise, drop it.

e

I asked for logical consideration. No one seems to understand the basic problem that sin brought to Adam and his family. It is frustrating to read the comments on this thread. It is no wonder we have hundreds of denominations in Christendom. Maybe if I present this logic it will help.

First of all it makes no sense whatsoever if Jesus Christ is attempting to give life to all who will believe in him by giving them his Spirit if they already have it. I am going to assume for a moment here that most folks on this board understands that the image of God is trinitarian. That is basic theology. If someone denies the trinity then there is no use taking the conversation any further. Here is the logic.

If We Christians become the image of Christ, who is the express image of God He 1:2, when we receive his Spirit, what were we before we received the Spirit? You people are saying we were in the image of God.God is not on crack cocaine. If we were in his image already, why the effort through the new birth to 1) make us a son of God, and 2) make us in the image of Christ. If Christ is the express image of God in his incarnation, what does that mean? We are not told he became the image of God somewhere in his life on earth, he is just said to be the express image of God. He said to Thomas on the eve of his crucifixion that he that has seen him has seen the Father.

The Spirit that we receive and who makes us a son of God is said to be the Spirit of God and of Christ. The same Spirit. This is a trinity. Jesus Christ, God the Father, the Spirit.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I wish someone would take the time to read those verses and ponder them. The trintarian God is at work in the new birth. God dwells in him. God raised Christ from the dead. The Spirit raised Christ from the dead. The Spirit dwells in a born again man, Jesus dwells in a born again man. God dwells in a born again man.Now, a man with the indwelling Spirit is in the image of Christ, who is God This makes him a trinity. Soul, body, and the Spirit. This gives him eternal life because God is in him and the Spirit is life and eternal. God cannot die.

Some man posited the proposition that Adam did not die immediately when he sinned. He waited for 930 more years.Here is a man who is in the image of God. The scriptures clearly says so. He is a trinity. He is a son of God. He has the Spirit.He has a soul. He has a body. He has life and in this condition he has billions of children in his family. None of them are like him according to this logic. God, who created Adam in his own image and in his likeness, said Adam died the day he ate the forbidden fruit. Then God said as he gave the generation of Adam in chapter 5 that Adam begat a son named Seth in his own image and in his likeness. What was that likeness and image after the fall?

Well, if the Spirit is life in the NT then logic says he is life in the OT. He has not changed.If a man is alive when he has the Spirit in the NT then he is alive when he has the Spirit in the OT. Only two people had the Spirit indwelling them in the OT. Adam and Jesus Christ.Adam died because he sinned. God cannot dwell with sin. The Spirit departed Adam. Absense of the Spirit is what spiritual death is. Sin cannot be remitted without the shed blood, according to God himself in He 9:22.

You have to ask yourself; why is God willing to sacrifice his own son so men can receive the Spirit and be a trinity and in his image if they are already. Sin must be washed away before God can live in a man.That is what the cross was all about. If there would have been any other way God would have thought about it. Re 1:5 in a KJV bible, and a couple others, says that Jesus Christ washed us from our sins in his own blood. Thank you Lord Jesus for that! A man who is born of Adam must be born again.

 

[Alan Gross]

I have been reading comments in the thread about Pelaganists, whatever that is, and in the attempt to define terms and justify positions and some false doctrines like total depravity and other doctrines, Adam is very much maligned and misrepresented. For instance there are people on this forum that disagree on what changed about Adam when he sinned. The texts tells us clearly and plainly what was different about him and other parts of scripture gives additional information.

Here is what the text says changed about him.

1) He died
2) His eyes were opened that he could know good and evil

Ge 3:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

This is all that we know that changed. It seems that Adam knew more, not less, as Calvinism teaches.

Here is the logic. If this is the source of the problem between God and man and Jesus Christ is the fix, can we not look at what Jesus Christ our Lord did and have a good idea about everything in between.

First of all, the death, burial, and resurrection of the second man and the last Adam, Jesus Christ, made living possible where men were dead.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Logic: these people who God wants to give eternal life through Jesus Christ are not in the graveyard covered with dirt. They are people who are walking around, having families, and living life. However, they must be dead in some way or why would anyone want to make a live person alive if he is already alive?

Any chance they would be dead in the same way Adam was dead in the day he sinned but before he was put in a grave 930 years later? Is the life that God wants to give as a gift different than the life Adam possessed before he died in the day he sinned? Here is what God said about Adam when he created him.

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here is what we are told in Job;

Job 33:4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Here is the fix after the resurrection;

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Adam before the fall was in the image of God (trinity) Born in Adam we are in the image of Adam (body and soul) after the fall. Born of God, we are in the image of Jesus Christ (trinity soul body Spirit) who is the image of God (Father Son Holy Ghost).

All beings who have the Spirit are sons of God. Adam was the son of God before the fall.See Lk 3:38.He is the only man who was, until Jesus Christ was born. God gave the Spirit to him without measure and from his conception.

This is logical as well as true. All this election stuff and total depravity and only certain people are chosen of God to be saved is giant red wheels and is confusion. It is tragic!

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Gen 5:1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

This is simple if you think about it.

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image;"

 

[1689Dave]

e

I asked for logical consideration. No one seems to understand the basic problem that sin brought to Adam and his family. It is frustrating to read the comments on this thread. It is no wonder we have hundreds of denominations in Christendom. Maybe if I present this logic it will help.

First of all it makes no sense whatsoever if Jesus Christ is attempting to give life to all who will believe in him by giving them his Spirit if they already have it. I am going to assume for a moment here that most folks on this board understands that the image of God is trinitarian. That is basic theology. If someone denies the trinity then there is no use taking the conversation any further. Here is the logic.

If We Christians become the image of Christ, who is the express image of God He 1:2, when we receive his Spirit, what were we before we received the Spirit? You people are saying we were in the image of God.God is not on crack cocaine. If we were in his image already, why the effort through the new birth to 1) make us a son of God, and 2) make us in the image of Christ. If Christ is the express image of God in his incarnation, what does that mean? We are not told he became the image of God somewhere in his life on earth, he is just said to be the express image of God. He said to Thomas on the eve of his crucifixion that he that has seen him has seen the Father.

The Spirit that we receive and who makes us a son of God is said to be the Spirit of God and of Christ. The same Spirit. This is a trinity. Jesus Christ, God the Father, the Spirit.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I wish someone would take the time to read those verses and ponder them. The trintarian God is at work in the new birth. God dwells in him. God raised Christ from the dead. The Spirit raised Christ from the dead. The Spirit dwells in a born again man, Jesus dwells in a born again man. God dwells in a born again man.Now, a man with the indwelling Spirit is in the image of Christ, who is God This makes him a trinity. Soul, body, and the Spirit. This gives him eternal life because God is in him and the Spirit is life and eternal. God cannot die.

Some man posited the proposition that Adam did not die immediately when he sinned. He waited for 930 more years.Here is a man who is in the image of God. The scriptures clearly says so. He is a trinity. He is a son of God. He has the Spirit.He has a soul. He has a body. He has life and in this condition he has billions of children in his family. None of them are like him according to this logic. God, who created Adam in his own image and in his likeness, said Adam died the day he ate the forbidden fruit. Then God said as he gave the generation of Adam in chapter 5 that Adam begat a son named Seth in his own image and in his likeness. What was that likeness and image after the fall?

Well, if the Spirit is life in the NT then logic says he is life in the OT. He has not changed.If a man is alive when he has the Spirit in the NT then he is alive when he has the Spirit in the OT. Only two people had the Spirit indwelling them in the OT. Adam and Jesus Christ.Adam died because he sinned. God cannot dwell with sin. The Spirit departed Adam. Absense of the Spirit is what spiritual death is. Sin cannot be remitted without the shed blood, according to God himself in He 9:22.

You have to ask yourself; why is God willing to sacrifice his own son so men can receive the Spirit and be a trinity and in his image if they are already. Sin must be washed away before God can live in a man.That is what the cross was all about. If there would have been any other way God would have thought about it. Re 1:5 in a KJV bible, and a couple others, says that Jesus Christ washed us from our sins in his own blood. Thank you Lord Jesus for that! A man who is born of Adam must be born again.

I think you slid off the rails somewhere along the line. Let's not waste bandwidth and try to get somewhere with this.

 

[Iconoclast]

Gosh in some ways I'm tempted to call some of these views hyper-pelagian.

You are correct, in the day you eat, dying thou shalt surely die.
Spiritual death on the spot, physical death to follow.

 

[JonC]

You are correct, in the day you eat, dying thou shalt surely die.
Spiritual death on the spot, physical death to follow.

But that is not what Scripture actually says.

What is your justification for interpreting the double use of mûth to mean "dying thou shalt die'?

This is one of two instances where the repetitive use of mûth is used. There it is used as an emphatic (the man would certainly die.... And he did). In both the Hebrew and Greek language we see this type of repetitiveness. It always means an emphatic, but you make an exception here. You need to explain your reasoning.

Do you believe "amen amen" should be rendered "agreeing I agree"?

Even if the verse was translated "dying thou shalt die" how do you justify adding a spiritual death to the text as Genesis 3 specifically points to a physical death and decomposition of a physical body?