A Determinist Question

[jonathan.borland]

To see God's sovereignty in action, read the book of Job.

I don't see how one escapes the impression that Calvinism = determinism. I've seen on this board that a Calvinist who is not a determinist seems oxymoronic. The two go hand in hand. That's why I value brother Iconoclast, for at least he is consistent.

 

[webdog]

What's your answer?

My question was posed to determinists of which I am not one

 

[webdog]

I'm not a determinist but the answer is obviously yes. Because of God's Spirit in me, if have good desires. I desire to please God. But because I still live in corrupted flesh, I have desires contrary to God's desires. There is a constant war going on between my spirit and my flesh. This is biblical and has nothing to do with determinism.

I agree with that. Maybe my question was not asked that well. Compatibilism is consistent with determinism and teaches man will choose that which is his greatest desire.

 

[jbh28]

I agree with that. Maybe my question was not asked that well. Compatibilism is consistent with determinism and teaches man will choose that which is his greatest desire.

Do you disagree that man will choose that which is his greatest desire? And of course when I say that I say his greatest desire at the moment of the choice with the options that are available to him at the time of the choice.

 

[Tom Butler]

An old preacher that I knew when I was a teenager was asked how he resolved the conflict between God's sovereignty and man's will.l He responded, "I never knew they had a falling out!"

Obviously it's not quite that simple, at least to me. I agree with the old preacher, but I confess that some of this is beyond my ability to understand.

Maybe this verse will help:
Acts 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

This is an interesting verse to me. Peter is saying that Jesus was delivered up and crucified as the result of the determinate counsel of God.

He also is saying that it was by God's foreknowledge. It would be easy to conclude that God simply knew how things were going to turn out because of his foreknowledge.l It's that "determinate counsel" that makes the statement so strong.

One could conclude then, that God knew it was going to happen because he determined that it would happen. Does that include every detail of every event surrounding the crucifixion?

Here's another interesting thing. He said the perpetrators had "wicked hands." They were wicked people and were directly responsible for killing the Lord Jesus.

So, what we have here is God's determinate counsel that Jesus would die, and the wicked hands would be held responsible for it.

Here I must stop because I have reached the limits of my understanding.

It's, as somebody famous once said, "above my pay grade."

I now yield to anyone else who'd like to take a crack at this.

 

[webdog]

Do you disagree that man will choose that which is his greatest desire? And of course when I say that I say his greatest desire at the moment of the choice with the options that are available to him at the time of the choice.

I believe we make choices based on what we perceive to be the best choice, not the greatest desire. Case in point, God has set eternity in the hearts of all men as well as His law. Surely a desire placed in our hearts trumps any desire we can muster on our own...yet most men do not choose to follow either.

 

[jbh28]

I believe we make choices based on what we perceive to be the best choice, not the greatest desire.

And when you want to make the best choice, that's your desire. You have a desire to make the best choice. It's still based on your desire.

Case in point, God has set eternity in the hearts of all men as well as His law. Surely a desire placed in our hearts trumps any desire we can muster on our own...yet most men do not choose to follow either.

Men choose to go to hell because they do not desire God. They desire to do things their own way.

I'll make this hypothesis. Every single decision that you have ever made is based on your greatest desire at the moment of the decision. I have yet to be able to prove this wrong.

Example:

You are in an alley and a guy comes to you with a gun and demands you give him your wallet. Now, do you really want to give him your wallet that has your hard earned money in it? No, of course not. But in that moment, you want(desire) to give him your money more than any other option that's available to you. Your true choice is really life or death. Your desire for life is greater than your desire to keep the money because you know keeping the money will result in death.

You have a choice to eat a salad or chocolate cake. You really want a slice of chocolate cake, but choose the salad instead because you don't want that much sugar. So your desire for health is greater than your desire to satisfy your sweet tooth. And yes, your desire for a good choice is greater than your desire for the cake.

Every single choice we make is based on our desires.

 

[webdog]

And when you want to make the best choice, that's your desire. You have a desire to make the best choice. It's still based on your desire.

I disagree. I believe desire does and can affect the decision, but many other factors are also in play.

Men choose to go to hell because they do not desire God. They desire to do things their own way.

But if God placed the desire in the man's heart to desire Him, how do you reconcile that?

Example:

You are in an alley and a guy comes to you with a gun and demands you give him your wallet. Now, do you really want to give him your wallet that has your hard earned money in it? No, of course not. But in that moment, you want(desire) to give him your money more than any other option that's available to you. Your true choice is really life or death. Your desire for life is greater than your desire to keep the money because you know keeping the money will result in death.

This is a good example that supports circumstances also play into how a decision is made. The greatest desire in your example is to not even be in that position, yet we cannot choose it. The greatest desire is to leave their with your life and your wallet, but that is not going to happen either.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast posted...

There are some who resist this teaching , but in time come to understand it as the truth of God.

Allow me to correct that statement....

There are some who fall for this teaching, but in time they come to understand error of the false teaching.

 

[convicted1]

1. Was God in control?
2. Did God know about the event before it happened?
3. Could God have stopped the event?

I'd say yes to all three.

But some seem to word it in a way that God was/is behind these evil deeds.

Child molestation, along with any and all other sins, come from satan. God allows satan so much leeway....you know, "this much, but not further".

 

[convicted1]

Not really. I've explained it many times but some want to stick with their straw man. God ordaining every event to the smallest detail does not mean that we don't have choices.

The only choice we apparently have is a "bondage to our will". Now, how is that really a choice? If my hands are tied behind my back, tossed into the ocean, and told I can swim to shore and live, what choice do I really have? This is the only choice Calvinists give us.

 

[InTheLight]

The only choice we apparently have is a "bondage to our will". Now, how is that really a choice? If my hands are tied behind my back, tossed into the ocean, and told I can swim to shore and live, what choice do I really have? This is the only choice Calvinists give us.

Correct. It's like buying a Model T 100 years ago. As Henry Ford said, “Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black”. So you have a choice, but only the one that is presented to you, no other. So it is with Calvinism.

 

[convicted1]

Correct. It's like buying a Model T 100 years ago. As Henry Ford said, “Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black”. So you have a choice, but only the one that is presented to you, no other. So it is with Calvinism.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[jbh28]

I disagree. I believe desire does and can affect the decision, but many other factors are also in play.

I never said there were no other factors, but desire is at the core.

But if God placed the desire in the man's heart to desire Him, how do you reconcile that?

What needs to be reconciled?

This is a good example that supports circumstances also play into how a decision is made. The greatest desire in your example is to not even be in that position, yet we cannot choose it. The greatest desire is to leave their with your life and your wallet, but that is not going to happen either.

Yes. That's my point. You always choose what you desire the most with the options available to you. The circumstances play a major part. Desire is still at the core of you making the final choice. Circumstances will limit the available options of which you to choose from.

 

[jbh28]

I'd say yes to all three.

But some seem to word it in a way that God was/is behind these evil deeds.

Child molestation, along with any and all other sins, come from satan. God allows satan so much leeway....you know, "this much, but not further".

I try to be careful how I word things. God ordained that all event would take place, but that doesn't mean God was causing the event to take place. The child molestation was done because an evil man committed an evil act because he was evil and wanted to commit that evil act.

 

[jbh28]

The only choice we apparently have is a "bondage to our will". Now, how is that really a choice? If my hands are tied behind my back, tossed into the ocean, and told I can swim to shore and live, what choice do I really have? This is the only choice Calvinists give us.

That's the Bible. Man is evil. The Bible teaches that over and over and over again. We are slaves to sin. We are in bondage to sin. This doesn't mean that man is as evil as he can be, but that he will never choose to come to Christ.

 

[webdog]

I never said there were no other factors, but desire is at the core.

you are not a compatibilist, then?

What needs to be reconciled?

Man always choosing his greatest desire.

Yes. That's my point. You always choose what you desire the most with the options available to you. The circumstances play a major part. Desire is still at the core of you making the final choice. Circumstances will limit the available options of which you to choose from.

thats not compatibilism, but free agency.

 

[Iconoclast]

And the little child being molested somewhere as I type this is because God decreed it? Gotcha........:tear:

Willis...do you think sin happens and surprises God? Why do you think the scriptures describe God as long suffering?

Do you not believe that God can stop any sin if he has planned to;

3But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

[QUOTEThis philosophy has more holes in it than does the swiss cheese on IntheLight's sammich!!!
][/QUOTE]

Willis...thats why i had swiss cheese on it. You did not like my story willis??

 

[Iconoclast]

Confessions aren't infallible, but the Word of God is.

Choose this day whom ye shal serve.......

Willis,

Maybe that is why the godly men who wrote the confession offered 15 verses of scripture to support this staement...did you look at the verses,willis:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Willis,

Maybe that is why the godly men who wrote the confession offered 15 verses of scripture to support this staement...did you look at the verses,willis:thumbs::thumbs:

He has never read a one of them....its against his religion LOL