A Determinist Question

[Benjamin]

You should truly learn to quit slinging the pejoratives. It's a habitual practice of yours and is quite disconcerting given your profession.

Since there’s little interest for debate on this board but to engage into your clan’s typical diversion tactics which center on personal conflicts, circular arguments and focusing on starting personal slugfests...closely accompanied by your tactics of ad nauseum whining about other's slinging "pejoratives game", does “gluteal adipose laden associates” suite you better “Mr. Pejorative Debater Man”…


Here's something for you to debate about...have fun.

 

[HankD]

I've asked this before but here goes again.

Does God determine everything that happens even down to the smallest detail?

Yes and no.

HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, that has to be the dumbest rebuttal you have posted yet. Just admit you cannot take Benjamin up on simple challenge...its quite easy.

well webdog.... I live in the real world....not an ivory tower....I deal with drug users, alcoholics, simple working people.....I bring the gospel to them...as I have opportunity. I deal with regular people working people...not alot of pretense...Benjamin accuses me of being simple,or naive...that is okay..i fit in here;

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

When I am in public i pray for opportunities to be used of God.To bring up scripture ,sin, the fall, the law, the blood,.new birth.That is what I enjoy everyday.I have my share of good opportunities. That is what i am about.
I see a pattern with you and benjamin.....I have made it known to benjamin several times that I am not interested in his philosophy game...I recommend for him ravi zacharias...

what benjamin, you ,skan , and winman , do alot of ..reminds me of this:

[14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
/QUOTE]

I have told benjamin specifically,and you sometime...if you want to question verses, or theology ...fine....if not I am not interested in arguments ...about subjective terms.....determinism, contra causal will, wrong definitions of ordain, foreknow,


it seems to me like you avoid the real issues...benjamin now has failed to address isa 46;9-11...in three or 4 posts in a row.....just keeps calling names, trying to bait me evidently...but to no avail.....

I have made it clear. I offer good links, to which neither of you can answer ,except if you want to look completely foolish trying to respond biblically....those links always go unanswered. I have noticed that.

The truck driver post, although partly humorous...is probably not far off the mark....probably less vilolent,and more profanity laced...but nevertheless
that is what i see would happen:thumbsup:

I think i expect more from you two...but i cannot get you to step up to the plate:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

Is that what that was, a rebuttal of my argument? :laugh: I thought it was another example of Icon’s immature attempts of explaining to me his fantasy of what a tough guy he and his clan are and expressing how he would like to see some of his lard canned associates to have an opportunity to use their bullying tactics to intimidate me in person. Apparently, warped imagination is all the Calvinists' got left to answer an ethical debate challenge...

I offered to meet with you with an open bible...but just like in here ...no real response. Violence is not the answer benjamin, scripture is.
yes i remember where you were talking like a tough guy...you were going to humiliate me...:laugh::laugh:
You can not do it either scripturally, or in any other way...I can assure you!
You remind of the little guy in school who wore black socks to gym class, was some what of a punk...then you just got older....
So now you think that you can try to sound important,belittle others...and avoid the issue....
No one is interested as i have told you....you are not interested in the bible,i am not interested in you talking me into a coma...with your debate rules ,debate fallacies,subjective carnal thoughts....

Scripture ..yes.....your pompous ideas...no thanks

 

[HeirofSalvation]

It seems different to you because you want to reject the clear scriptural teaching.....Jn 6:37-44

Jesus taught what we understand now as calvinism. The jews heard the teaching and rejected it...as some do today


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
This giving of the father to the Son...is the covenant of redemption They all come ....irrestable grace 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
[C9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Perserverance of the saints Unconditional election
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
"that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him," Icon, this is a "Conditional Statement" Christ is setting up CONDITIONS for everlasting life
41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
The Jews are rejecting the notion of Christ's Divinity not Christ's patently clear endorsement of Calvinism
43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Total depravity...overcome by God making the elect willing 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
It is written in isa 54....speaking of God;s covenant love for his elect, being as secure as the noahic covenant .
Those drawn to salvation, are convicted of sin and drawn by the father to the Son


They resisted the teaching ...just as many try to do today.The teaching stands however..despite the weak and ineffectual objections...

.37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
This giving of the father to the Son...is the covenant of redemption They all come ....irrestable grace
This verse in no way implies Irresistable Grace It doesn't really imply Resistable Grace either, it is simply silent on the subject. It does read "shall cometo me" and "him that cometh" is that Calvinism? 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jesus comes to die for those given to him -particular redemption-hebrews 2covenant of grace
Yes Jesus obeyed the Father... he did his Father's will not his, he said so in Gethsemane. Again this says NOTHING about "particular redemption"
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Wait a second, did this say "taste death for EVERY man"? No not possible.
vs. 10-16 are completely irrelevant to either Calvinism or Arminianism they are not germaine in the least.39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Perserverance of the saints Unconditional election
Perseverance of the Saints/ OSAS yes, Unconditional election? it is again silent as to either the presence or absence of any conditions. It is not germaine to the topic. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
"that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him," Icon, this is a "Conditional Statement" Christ is setting up CONDITIONS for everlasting life 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.


42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
The Jews are rejecting the notion of Christ's Divinity not Christ's patently clear endorsement of Calvinism. How could anyone get confused about that?
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Total depravity...overcome by God making the elect willing Careful, Natural inability... YES! Total Depravity.. YES! COMPULSION? NO. non Cals are unaware of the apparent fact that to DRAW means to COMPEL. Words have meaning to us.
They resisted the teaching ...just as many try to do today.The teaching stands however..despite the weak and ineffectual objections...[/

Again, they are resisting the notion of Christ's DIVINITY not Calvinism ,

 

[HeirofSalvation]

9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Yes God is uniquely God unlike the idols he is comparing himself to in vs. 1-6

10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Yes, He will do ALL his pleasure, this does not yet inform us that his pleasure is to decretally cause all details/Turkey and Cheddar sandwiches of life.

11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God has a very specific "Ravenous bird" (Cyrus) who will execute God's will in a very particular way at a very particular time. Cyrus is not God's instrument to exhaustively provide all Turkey and Cheddar sandwiches throughout all time and all ages, even though we went to the Grocery store and bought Ham and Provolone.

 

[Iconoclast]

.37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
This giving of the father to the Son...is the covenant of redemption They all come ....irrestable grace
This verse in no way implies Irresistable Grace It doesn't really imply Resistable Grace either, it is simply silent on the subject. It does read "shall cometo me" and "him that cometh" is that Calvinism? [/B]38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jesus comes to die for those given to him -particular redemption-hebrews 2covenant of grace
Yes Jesus obeyed the Father... he did his Father's will not his, he said so in Gethsemane. Again this says NOTHING about "particular redemption"
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Wait a second, did this say "taste death for EVERY man"? No not possible.


vs. 10-16 are completely irrelevant to either Calvinism or Arminianism they are not germaine in the least.39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Perserverance of the saints Unconditional election
Perseverance of the Saints/ OSAS yes, Unconditional election? it is again silent as to either the presence or absence of any conditions. It is not germaine to the topic. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
"that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him," Icon, this is a "Conditional Statement" Christ is setting up CONDITIONS for everlasting life 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.


42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
The Jews are rejecting the notion of Christ's Divinity not Christ's patently clear endorsement of Calvinism. How could anyone get confused about that?
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Total depravity...overcome by God making the elect willing Careful, Natural inability... YES! Total Depravity.. YES! COMPULSION? NO. non Cals are unaware of the apparent fact that to DRAW means to COMPEL. Words have meaning to us.
They resisted the teaching ...just as many try to do today.The teaching stands however..despite the weak and ineffectual objections...[/

Again, they are resisting the notion of Christ's DIVINITY not Calvinism ,

HOS....

i will answer more later on...but just quickly,,,,
All that the Father gives me..Shall come to me....

They all come ....irrestable grace
This verse in no way implies Irresistable Grace It doesn't really imply Resistable Grace either, it is simply silent on the subject. It does read "shall cometo me" and "him that cometh" is that Calvinism?[/

All that are given come.....no more, no less
no one is lost.....no one ultimately resists, they come...

The question to consider is why they do come.....and how can these words be true...All the father gives shall come...

I will go over the full post later.

 

[Iconoclast]

9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Yes God is uniquely God unlike the idols he is comparing himself to in vs. 1-6

10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Yes, He will do ALL his pleasure, this does not yet inform us that his pleasure is to decretally cause all details/Turkey and Cheddar sandwiches of life.

11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God has a very specific "Ravenous bird" (Cyrus) who will execute God's will in a very particular way at a very particular time. Cyrus is not God's instrument to exhaustively provide all Turkey and Cheddar sandwiches throughout all time and all ages, even though we went to the Grocery store and bought Ham and Provolone.

HOS.
again....i am taking a coffee break ..will respond later...the whole of scripture does inform us of what God's good pleasure is...more later

 

[Herald]

I've asked this before but here goes again.

Does God determine everything that happens even down to the smallest detail?

I'll use an example to illustrate: Does god determine what I will have for lunch next Friday?

Or do I decide what I'm going to have for lunch next Friday and God had foreknowledge of my choice?

I think the answer to your question begins with understanding the nature of God.

Matthew 10:29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father."

Clearly God is concerned even with the most finite of details. God is above all and, I believe, the bible makes the case that He directs all. But does that mean man is a robot? No. There is a mystery embedded in man's choices. Man does choose. He chooses freely and without compulsion. However his choices are made within God's grand design. Therein is the mystery. The determinist and non-determinist must accept this mystery and be careful not to exceed the truth that God has not revealed. The determinist cannot stray into fatalism and exonerate himself from the responsibility for his actions. The non-determinist cannot think that his actions are completely independent and binding upon God.

This type of mystery is not acceptable to many theologians. These theologians are not happy until they've reduced even the greatest mystery into their own theological constructs. There are some doctrines that are clear and plain. The one you've brought should force us to trust that God knows best even when we can't fit Him into a neat little box.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think the answer to your question begins with understanding the nature of God.

Matthew 10:29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father."

Clearly God is concerned even with the most finite of details. God is above all and, I believe, the bible makes the case that He directs all. But does that mean man is a robot? No. There is a mystery embedded in man's choices. Man does choose. He chooses freely and without compulsion. However his choices are made within God's grand design. Therein is the mystery. The determinist and non-determinist must accept this mystery and be careful not to exceed the truth that God has not revealed. The determinist cannot stray into fatalism and exonerate himself from the responsibility for his actions. The non-determinist cannot think that his actions are completely independent and binding upon God.

This type of mystery is not acceptable to many theologians. These theologians are not happy until they've reduced even the greatest mystery into their own theological constructs. There are some doctrines that are clear and plain. The one you've brought should force us to trust that God knows best even when we can't fit Him into a neat little box.

:thumbs::wavey::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

HOS,

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
This giving of the father to the Son...is the covenant of redemption They all come ....irrestable grace
This verse in no way implies Irresistable Grace It doesn't really imply Resistable Grace either, it is simply silent on the subject. It does read "shall cometo me" and "him that cometh" is that Calvinism? 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jesus comes to die

No one verse says everything isolated by itself.
This section of jn 6....37-66...is speaking of God's eternal purpose of redemption...God's Covenant. it does not use the word Covenant...in the passage.Yet it is clearly speaking of this covenant....

as in 2 sam 7:

8Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:

9And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

10Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

11And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

The word Covenant does not appear here, but we see this in psa 89;

3I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

27Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Once we establish the Covenant nature of the transaction...then the rest falls into place...both here and hebrews 2:9-16

Jesus comes to die for those given to him -particular redemption-hebrews 2covenant of grace
Yes Jesus obeyed the Father... he did his Father's will not his, he said so in Gethsemane. Again this says NOTHING about "particular redemption"
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Wait a second, did this say "taste death for EVERY man"? No not possible.

that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.
The everyone of hebrews to is explained in the passage...it tells us everyone who was in view...redemption is in view ...

[QUOTE
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Do you see who are identified as the everyone....everyman..is everyone

the church, his brethren, those sanctified,the children given of the Father to the Son, the seed of Abraham...not the seed of Adam, those delivered,



In Jn 6...and here in hebrews 2...the atonement is in view..
Why are they given to the Son?
Why does it say they were sanctified for?
Why does it say they all come?
Why does it say he took them upon Himself?
Why do men need to come to the Son???

It is the out working of the Covenant of grace and redemption. This is what it means ...I came down from heaven to do the Fathers will.....that is the cross.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

ICON,

All that the Father gives me..Shall come to me....
All that are given come.....no more, no less
no one is lost.....no one ultimately resists, they come...

I am sorry, but there is clear eisegesis here... This verse simply does not say ...."No more, no less" it does say no LESS consider this sentence..."All who were invited to the party attended" Obviously all invitees (those the Father gives me) for this purpose do attend....suppose non-invited wedding crashers...they also show up! I am not claiming there are such "wedding crashers" but you have already read into this verese more than it actually says.

This section of jn 6....37-66...is speaking of God's eternal purpose of redemption...God's Covenant. it does not use the word Covenant...in the passage.Yet it is clearly speaking of this covenant....

Is it so CLEARLY speaking of this covenant? After all, it does not ever SAY that. This is (even if accurate) a bald assertion you are making.

Once we establish the Covenant nature of the transaction...then the rest falls into place...both here and hebrews 2:9-16

So far Calvinistic principles do not yet necessarily follow, possibly perhaps, but not necessarrily. Let's see if they do...

Do you see who are identified as the everyone....everyman..is everyone

This is sheer equivocation..

the seed of Abraham...not the seed of Adam, those delivered,

Jesus was of the seed of Abraham (at least Mary his Mother was)...who was the seed of....ta da! Adam.... Jesus was a Jew... The author of..HEBREWS was writing to Jews... Every Jew is of the seed of Adam. Hence, the subject of the book of HEBREWS Jesus is decidedly their BRETHREN. Hence the very reasonable reference to being the "High Priest" vs. 17. I appreciate your responses, but looking objectively, if one does not already ASSUME Calvinism, these passages in no way support it. They do not preclude it either! These passages are ostensibly silent as to the unique claims of Calvinism. Try for a second to divest yourself of an ingrained Calvinism, and I think you may find that these conclusions are NOT obvious. They may SEEM so to you, after all, I ASSUME free will, and Unlimited Atonement, so as a rule, I see my assumptions EVERYWHERE in Scripture, even, to some extent, these passages of yours (but not much).