A Determinist Question

[Benjamin]

:type: Well, ...I think I've made enough friends here today and there is (truly) no attention on the topic of defining "Determinism". Its been interesting though...

 

[jbh28]

:type: Well, ...I think I've made enough friends here today and there is (truly) no attention on the topic of defining "Determinism". Its been interesting though...

I guess you don't want to answer my question.

1. Is God in control of all events?
2. Does God know all events that will take place

 

[Benjamin]

You're trying to reduce God to an equation that you can understand and it's not going to work. If you want to discuss scripture I will be happy to, but I'm not going to play your game.

Yes, Amy I understand that you are not interested in the principles of philosophy and have your own type of game...reducing God to fit into a boxed theological system of men while ignoring "how" that system was 'actually" built.

 

[Amy.G]

Yes, Amy I understand that you are not interested in the principles of philosophy and have your own type of game...reducing God to fit into a boxed theological system of men while ignoring "how" that system was 'actually" built.

Whatever.

:wavey:

 

[Benjamin]

I guess you don't want to answer my question.

1. Is God in control of all events?
2. Does God know all events that will take place

I'll refer you back to:

...

...and tell you my argument has been laid down that I started by refuting what was called logical, that argument now cuts to the chase, and once again I've no interest in pursuing a another circle with you while you fail to recognize or admit that your questions are merely a tactic to divert from my opening argument, which I have stuck to, and which should be easy for you to answer if you really wanted to get down to the "truth" of Determism rather than find more holes to jump in. But it appears be more careful of throwing around the accusation of being "childish" because it is you that fits the bill here.

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand Icon, really I do, I can see where philosophical critical thinking techniques designed to draw the truth out of an argument would be no value to you whatsoever. It makes perfect sense.

God did not give us philosphy...so called. He reveals truth in scripture.

You might glory in the thinking of fallen men...and their carnal thought.

I and others desire to understand scripture using teachers whose minds are being renewed by the word of God. You do not see what we all see as you see fatalism...rather than a personal God speaking His truth to us.
Everyone is telling you the same thing...trying to reason with you...but you offer smug self centered comments...of no value.

At this point it is clear no one is interested in your smugness,logic, debate fallacies. It seems you do not get it,

 

[jbh28]

I'll refer you back to:



...and tell you my argument has been laid down that I started by refuting what was called logical, that argument now cuts to the chase, and once again I've no interest in pursuing a another circle with you while you fail to recognize or admit that your questions are merely a tactic to divert from my opening argument, which I have stuck to, and which should be easy for you to answer if you really wanted to get down to the "truth" of Determism rather than find more holes to jump in. But it appears be more careful of throwing around the accusation of being "childish" because it is you that fits the bill here.

I guess that's a no. I made this question on page 2. My questions are not any tactic at all. Its to help you understand our view. It gets to the heart of what we believe. No body believes that God is playing Sims in heaven and making all the decisions for us while we play as robots. My questions hit at the heart at that.

 

[Amy.G]

At this point it is clear no one is interested in your smugness,logic, debate fallacies. It seems you do not get it,

Yes. At this point we're all :sleep::sleep:

:laugh:

 

[webdog]

You're trying to reduce God to an equation that you can understand and it's not going to work. If you want to discuss scripture I will be happy to, but I'm not going to play your game.

Actually, if you read his post carefully he is doing no such thing. He is trying to peel back the layers concerning determinism...not God. Since we all believe Scripture to be absoute truth as well as our understanding of it, "just discussing Scripture" is not enough. We need to know why we believe what we do and the reasoning behind it. This is not Benjamin's approach, it's Gods ("Let US reason TOGETHER")

 

[webdog]

Bump. Hopefully a determinist will stop attacking Benjamin for a minute and take him up on his challenge.

And before you cal's get all caught up in not wanting to discuss "philosophy"...your doctrine is built on it. This should be right up your alley.

 

[Iconoclast]

Bump. Hopefully a determinist will stop attacking Benjamin for a minute and take him up on his challenge.

And before you cal's get all caught up in not wanting to discuss "philosophy"...your doctrine is built on it. This should be right up your alley.

No...it is scripturally based...not man made.God revealed it in his word.
In scripture it always got a hostile reaction..jn6:
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Carnal reasoning does not mesh with God's ordained purpose as it unfolds..
the flesh profits nothing...it was true then ,and here on BB.

The same verses get rejected today...just different faces on the people:thumbs:

 

[webdog]

No...it is scripturally based...not man made.God revealed it in his word.
In scripture it always got a hostile reaction..jn6:
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Carnal reasoning does not mesh with God's ordained purpose as it unfolds..
the flesh profits nothing...it was true then ,and here on BB.

The same verses get rejected today...just different faces on the people:thumbs:

See, proof a scriptural truth has been philosophized into a different understanding

 

[Iconoclast]

See, proof a scriptural truth has been philosophized into a different understanding

It seems different to you because you want to reject the clear scriptural teaching.....Jn 6:37-44

Jesus taught what we understand now as calvinism. The jews heard the teaching and rejected it...as some do today


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
This giving of the father to the Son...is the covenant of redemption They all come ....irrestable grace

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jesus comes to die for those given to him -particular redemption-hebrews 2covenant of grace

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Perserverance of the saints Unconditional election

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Total depravity...overcome by God making the elect willing
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
It is written in isa 54....speaking of God;s covenant love for his elect, being as secure as the noahic covenant .
Those drawn to salvation, are convicted of sin and drawn by the father to the Son


They resisted the teaching ...just as many try to do today.The teaching stands however..despite the weak and ineffectual objections...

 

[webdog]

Same reply as post 132. Proof texting is philosophy. The above red lettering (I always thought that was reserved for the words of Christ) is pure eisegesis. When you start with a text trying to find your theology in it that is what you get.

 

[convicted1]

This is getting good!!!


And now for some dessert

 

[Iconoclast]

Same reply as post 132. Proof texting is philosophy. The above red lettering (I always thought that was reserved for the words of Christ) is pure eisegesis. When you start with a text trying to find your theology in it that is what you get.

Same post as 133....The words and teaching of Jesus are not proof texting.
it is direct Divine revelation concerning the covenants of promise.
you resist them for reasons known only to yourself....but you clearly avoid the clear teaching...and offer nothing but one sentence quips trying to
dismiss the obvious teaching. The theology is clearly explained in the text.
Jesus refers to Isa 54...not proof texting ...but showing the sure teaching of then Covenant.
I notice no attempt at you to actually address the text...you just seek to dismiss it without an answer....you do that alot...
maybe you have no response.???

 

[Benjamin]

No...it is scripturally based...not man made.God revealed it in his word.
In scripture it always got a hostile reaction..jn6:
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

...Will ye also go away?

Carnal reasoning does not mesh with God's ordained purpose as it unfolds..
the flesh profits nothing...it was true then ,and here on BB.

The same verses get rejected today...just different faces on the people:thumbs:

I can only assume Icon is trying to tell us his words and reasoning about the interpretation of scriptures are some type of apostolic prophesy, further, as for my reasoning, or anyone else on the BB that disagrees with him, it is his claim that they are merely carnal and hostile, as they don’t mesh with his ordained purposes.

Well, Icon, first, telling others to accept your interpretations without using their own God given reasoning abilities is dangerous and is how cults are formed.

Second, Icon, and something that be more of a concern to you, is it is against the rules of this board to question other’s salvation by calling them “carnal”.

Third, Icon, as usual you addressed me (and my reasoning) rather than my argument; the subject of this tread is about “determinism” and the extent of it:

Does God determine everything that happens even down to the smallest detail?

Here is my (on topic) argument if you would like to address it rather than focusing on me and using the typical tactics (your personal attacks which typically include questioning other’s spirituality and thereby their salvation) for diversions and avoidance of the argument at hand:

I thought you might want to cut out all the boloney and get to the nuts and bolts; Philosophical Logic/Critical Thinking 101, for example, using the "cardinal rule" of "argument identification" (meaning an argument must have two parts and one part is presented as a reason for believing the other part is true and this consists of two claims and a “therefore”) so the following should be elementary in regards to recognizing the Calvinist’ first claim (C) above as necessarily true:

(C) = God determines all things, same as God is absolutely sovereign (i.e. 'in complete control over all things...including men's choices')

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

(X) = “ANYTHING”

Determinism = (T)

That would be a categorized claim that is said to be true (T), philosophically speaking, that is.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What kinda pretzel logic is this....where is this calling anyones salvation under question?

Second, Icon, and something that be more of a concern to you, is it is against the rules of this board to question other’s salvation by calling them “carnal”. :laugh:

 

[preacher4truth]

What kinda pretzel logic is this....where is this calling anyones salvation under question?

Second, Icon, and something that be more of a concern to you, is it is against the rules of this board to question other’s salvation by calling them “carnal”.

It's hilarious and it's not logic, not even pretzel logic.

Here we have a post using all types of pejoratives against Icon, then the same person slams the usage of pejoratives against others, while doing it, and the only thing he can come up with is 'carnal'? :laugh:

Heavens sake, he even uses eisegesis in forums as his interpretive tool.

On another thread one called the statement 'false cause of the OP' questioning ones salvation. :laugh:

This must be a contagious disease. Thankfully being 'Calvinist' I'm inoculated against it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Third, Icon, as usual you addressed me (and my reasoning) rather than my argument; the subject of this tread is about “determinism” and the extent of it:



Here is my (on topic) argument if you would like to address it rather than focusing on me and using the typical tactics (your personal attacks which typically include questioning other’s spirituality and thereby their salvation) for diversions and avoidance of the argument at hand:

Benjamin,

I did address you in post 126....

but now I have been trying to interact with Webdog....try and follow the thread....

I can only assume Icon is trying to tell us his words and reasoning about the interpretation of scriptures are some type of apostolic prophesy,

As i am a cessationist i can assure you you will hear no such thing from me.
You do not care about that..you just want to attack again...okay I will play:thumbs: your "assumption " is an excuse to try and mis-state what i wrote.
The carnal reasoning in Jn6 was by the unsaved religious people who did not understand the grace of God. When you do not understand God's grace all you have left is carnal reasoning...and the philosophy of the natural man.
There is no reason for you to assume anything. Ask a real question straight out...and you will get a plain answer.

further, as for my reasoning, or anyone else on the BB that disagrees with him, it is his claim that they are merely carnal and hostile, as they don’t mesh with his ordained purposes

As for your reasoning.....I find your reasoning to be smug,and bitter.....usually you make an unfounded attack...offer no scripture, then wonder why you receive the responses you receive. Others have asked you in a calmer, more polite mode to speak plainly,and communicate but you just brush them off.....others do not comment to you because they do not know what you are talking about whatsoever.
Rather than get a clue.....you just trample over them with some verbose response that is not meant to be helpful...just to exalt you in your own mind.
Your responses I have quite openly been critical of....because that is exactly all you have been offering...carnal and hostile....
There are several people I disagree with....I do not say the same about those who have a legitmate discussion in view.
When you attack the God I worship, or His people...failing to engage in a scriptural discussion....just attack 24/7.....there is no attempt to bridge the gap. You along with 3-4 others seem to desire this...rather than scriptural discussion that can edify.

Well, Icon, first, telling others to accept your interpretations without using their own God given reasoning abilities is dangerous and is how cults are formed.

Where have I told anyone to accept my interpretations?? without using their reasoning??/
I offer up what I believe is truth. Other times I offer up links that I believe contain truth by persons much more gifted than most anyone here.
I notice that you and several other critics are silenced almost everytime I offer such a link...because to try and respond against the link offered would expose your defective ideas in a public forum,rather than come to truth...it is easier to just hide like an ostritch and just dismiss me, or put words and thoughts that I have not said into a response. I understand your frustration.
If you notice...some people like the verses I offer..and yet..no cult has formed:thumbs:

Second, Icon, and something that be more of a concern to you, is it is against the rules of this board to question other’s salvation by calling them “carnal

I have not mentioned anyone by name to question their salvation. I do find it troubling when Some use the language of the ungodly, unbelievers who deny the biblical Jesus in their responses.
I have, and will continue to point out that the bible has many warnings against unsaved religious professors, and false brethren. I will offer those cautions to any who seem to be in danger of drifting off...with a view to seeing them seek the Lord. I do not desire anyone I interact with to perish,
however....sometimes God will use a christian to bear witness to one who is perishing. That is God's buisness...my buisness is to remain faithful to the word.....God has not "told me' to check with you first, to get approval before i can post what I do. Sorry if that disappoints you Benjamin.

Third, Icon, as usual you addressed me (and my reasoning) rather than my argument; the subject of this tread is about “determinism” and the extent of it:

I have several times addressed you and your reasoning which I see as being completely against the truth of God...I have done so quite openly.
I have offered you answers many times which you dismiss..that is up to you.

I find it quite interesting that in the other thread about scarlett o seeking to help a troubled young person...about assurance of faith..that you who supposedly oppose God determining whatsoever comes to pass...you offer up romans 8:35-39..in a section and passage which every calvinist knows and loves...you had enough sense to go there because you know that unless God has determined by election and predestination those persons spoken of the promise of nothing seperating us from the love of God could not possibly be true, unless God has decreed it to be so:laugh:

Benjamin....I give you permission to lay aside your false claims...and fully embrace the doctrines you want to ridicule so much. Go ahead..it is okay.

Here is my (on topic) argument if you would like to address it rather than focusing on me and using the typical tactics

(C) = God determines all things, same as God is absolutely sovereign (i.e. 'in complete control over all things...including men's choices')

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

(X) = “ANYTHING”

Determinism = (T)

That would be a categorized claim that is said to be true (T), philosophically speaking, that is

Several have answered this;

I see no scripture here! but I will proceed....

God determines all things, same as God is absolutely sovereign (i.e. 'in complete control over all things...including men's choices')

Mens choices are made by men. they are not outside of God's knowledge, or His control...as per Judas betraying Jesus. God has decreed the events to unfold providentially so as to bring about His ordained purpose...the story of Joseph.....brought to a focus in Gen 50:20......The whole story is in view..lest you try and dismiss it again...like you and webdog do..claim proof texting

the whole story..the coat, the brothers, the pit,Potiphars wife , prison, the butler and the baker, the dream,etc

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen

nothing happens anywhere at any time ..that God does not allow to happen.

9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

I do not see in light of verses such as this...rightly understood..how this is in any way even an issue , or debatable.

you ask a plain question..you get a plain answer.here is a great link I have posted several times...I can only offer it to you and any other who wants a biblical answer to this question'
http://www.wordmp3.com/files/gs/ordains.htm

if you do not read it...it will not help.:thumbs: