A Determinist Question

[Iconoclast]

Let me see if I got this philoso…err biblical teaching of Icon’s right? It has been decreed, that yes, God determines down to the smallest details things like overruling that InTheLight should plan to have a roast beef sandwich and for secret reasons He determines things like the the cook should die before that happens so that InTheLight would have to settle for a ham and Swiss as per God’s pre-determined will.

Icon’s irrefutable proof-text passage to support his biblical teaching that God determines such things:
20But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.




Benjamin,

Icon you never cease to amaze me, what an interpreter of scripture you are! What insight! Surely a man determined by God Himself to reveal to us these biblical truths which are specified under the authority of “The” Historic Church’s infallible doctrines of the scriptures! I’m just beside myself as I witness your wisdom and understanding in this matter! I was blind but now I see!!!

Thank you Benjamin, for your heart felt comments. I am glad that God has used me in a special way in your life:wavey:
Of course these verses only speak to the rest of us. You of course are immune.....you are so special....you alone of all men exist apart from God's decree.... you in your mind exist outside of any and all control.

More biblical teaching from Icon warning us not learn of God’s absolute sovereignty later be as Pharaoh, take this as a warning, Amen God will judge those who follow their emotions and do not come to the truths given by Icon, Amen

To the degree I post God's truth,and you resist you might well get rewarded according to your works:thumbs: see you are starting to understand:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

I see, so "it's a mystery, and some day we will know the answer". Now, where have I heard that before. Oh yeah!

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1815459&postcount=19

In the Light { or perhaps darkness}
let me introduce you to the scriptures;

29The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Calvinists believe Deut 29;29..there are secret things.....and there are
revealed things.....like God's covenant which we study and believe..seeing what part of the eternal decree he has revealed to the church;


QUOTE]but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law[/QUOTE]

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

ITL. Whosoever will may believe the truth of the doctrines of grace. Whosoever will not may follow Benjamin and let him philosphize them into a coma:laugh::laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't see how one escapes the impression that Calvinism = determinism. I've seen on this board that a Calvinist who is not a determinist seems oxymoronic. The two go hand in hand. That's why I value brother Iconoclast, for at least he is consistent.

It is the scriptures that are God given and consistent. By God's grace I believe them and continue to grow in grace and knowledge.
The scriptures cannot be broken. the whole bible is a revelation of God's eternal purpose as i posted in the other thread..I will post it here again, so benjamin can claim i am proof texting again:laugh:

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who createwhich from the d all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[InTheLight]

In the Light { or perhaps darkness}
let me introduce you to the scriptures;

Thank you. Is condescension a standard part of your service?

 

[convicted1]

Willis,

Maybe that is why the godly men who wrote the confession offered 15 verses of scripture to support this staement...did you look at the verses,willis

Well, the five points of the Remonstrance were written by godly men as well. But you would hold them in error, in much the same way I do those confessions you post. I disagree with quite a bit of the Remonstrance, especially how one can forfeit their salvation, YUCK!

Article I — That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John iii. 36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," and according to other passages of Scripture also.

Can't say I disagree with any of this. :thumbs:

Article II - That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption, and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins, except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John iii. 16: "God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"; and in the First Epistle of John ii. 2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

:thumbs:

Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."

:thumbs:

Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting, awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.

:thumbs:

Article V — That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory, it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled, nor plucked out of Christ's hands, according to the word of Christ, John x. 28: "Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scriptures before they can teach it with the full persuasion of their minds.

YUCK!

 

[jonathan.borland]

How are you reading article 5? I see it not as a denial of perseverance but as an affirmation of it. It says it doubts that any can teach that some can fall away, or at least that such apparent passages that indicate such are not yet fully persuasive.

 

[convicted1]

How are you reading article 5? I see it not as a denial of perseverance but as an affirmation of it. It says it doubts that any can teach that some can fall away, or at least that such apparent passages that indicate such are not yet fully persuasive.

That sounded/looked to me like they could forfeit their salvation to me. However, I could be wrong. I am prone to these "moments" you know?

 

[DaChaser1]

Well, are you a hard determinist or a soft determinist?

Are you asking him if he is either a strong or moderate calvinist here?

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you. Is condescension a standard part of your service?

ITL....it is when you post this;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
It is not foreknowledge...it is God's omniscence that he knows all things, and yet the ham and swiss is God's provision for you....The why it happened this way...is part of the secret things of God.

I see, so "it's a mystery, and some day we will know the answer". Now, where have I heard that before. Oh yeah!

Then you link saying cals are copping out....I figure if you want to communicate in that way...i will respond to you in the same way so you will get it. If you are sincere...you get a sincere response.....when you want to ridicule or mock....like here again;

Yep, the old "appeal to mystery" clause, a favorite of Calvinists.

 

[quantumfaith]

How are you reading article 5? I see it not as a denial of perseverance but as an affirmation of it. It says it doubts that any can teach that some can fall away, or at least that such apparent passages that indicate such are not yet fully persuasive.

Yes, Jon

I read the 5th point as to acknowledging in our humanity that there is ambivalence regarding this point. It appears, in an honest way that JA was unsure and unconvinced. It does not appear to me, as it seems to appear to some, that he felt God in anyway incapable.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast posted...

There is no free will.
We have self will

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Benjamin]

YUCK!

A big difference I see between the way these two views are presented is that the Remonstrates are saying that they believe "these things" can not be taught in full assurity, or good conscience to only be interpreted to mean only one thing (meaning strict determinism while effectually voiding free will) and "these things" yet need to be "more particularly determined" and they are not willing to settle on some boxed-in soteriological view pertaining to the matter. OTOH, the 1689 confessions profess to have the answers and the authority to declare their view correct. It seems rather cultic to me for someone to say these views of the 1689 confessions are what others must believe to have or know the truth. Not much has changed in the attitudes of those who go about to teach "these things" as facts and it seems kind of apostolic in nature to think of one's self to be an authority in the matter and to decalre it truth by the authority of the confessions is to adopt that disturbing type of mindset. Plus, those that do strictly hold to it (determinism) have through the times come up with disturbing doctrines about the nature of God to maintain their view as settled and correct.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"The Remonstrance" ....sounds like an Italian eatery in Little Neck Queens. :laugh:

 

[glfredrick]

I've asked this before but here goes again.

Does God determine everything that happens even down to the smallest detail?

I'll use an example to illustrate: Does god determine what I will have for lunch next Friday?

Or do I decide what I'm going to have for lunch next Friday and God had foreknowledge of my choice?

God determines all things, but not quite in the manner in which you describe. You ask a complicated question along the lines of, "Did your wife enjoy it when you stopped beating her?" where any answer that one gives will automatically be incriminating and wrong.

Rather, we have a scnenario where God is ultimately in control of every sub-atomic particle in the cosmos. He HAS to be in order to be God, for if ANYTHING could over-rule Him, that thing would exert more power than Almighty God, so logically, like it or not, God IS sovereign (at least the God self-revealed in Scripture).

But, the WAY He controls all things is where fatalistic determination falls short, for there IS NO SUCH THING. If that were so, we could neither love God nor have any reason for faith, both of which God has decreed (indeed, unless He ordained and created both the concepts and the ability there would be neither!). Take your example of lunch next Friday, for instance. God already KNOWS what you will eat for lunch next Friday. He knew that before He created you. Further, He also knew/knows WHY you will eat what you will eat (or not). There is no state of being that you can adopt that God doesn't already know -- and that He didn't plan -- and yet, your action to eat whatever for lunch is FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE an absolutely FREE action based on your will and based on your circumstances.

And there is your answer... God can SO easily arrange circumstances to suit His divine will that He can and does whatever He needs to do to insure that His will is true always (there is NO other state that His will can inhabit, for to will is to be as far as God is concerned -- think about that for a bit). That God can will every particle in the cosmos is beyond human comprehension, but not beyond human logic, nor beyond Scriptural revelation, both of which admit that an all-powerful, all-knowing God could/can do all.

Your objection then is the problem of evil, which is only a problem for rebellious human beings who reject the fact that God is God. From His perspective, there is no true rebellion nor any true problem with evil. He wills and it is -- period. To US, there is a problem with evil, for our moral compass is skewed when we see what appears to be great evil in the world -- as if God neither cares nor is powerful enough to halt -- BUT -- in the plans of God that evil has a purpose and I expect that we will become fully aware of that purpose once we see face-to-face ALL of the facts that God was manipulating in order to bring about His good and perfect will for His divine purpose (only one), and for His ultimate glory.

 

[quantumfaith]

God determines all things, but not quite in the manner in which you describe. You ask a complicated question along the lines of, "Did your wife enjoy it when you stopped beating her?" where any answer that one gives will automatically be incriminating and wrong.

Rather, we have a scnenario where God is ultimately in control of every sub-atomic particle in the cosmos. He HAS to be in order to be God, for if ANYTHING could over-rule Him, that thing would exert more power than Almighty God, so logically, like it or not, God IS sovereign (at least the God self-revealed in Scripture).

But, the WAY He controls all things is where fatalistic determination falls short, for there IS NO SUCH THING. If that were so, we could neither love God nor have any reason for faith, both of which God has decreed (indeed, unless He ordained and created both the concepts and the ability there would be neither!). Take your example of lunch next Friday, for instance. God already KNOWS what you will eat for lunch next Friday. He knew that before He created you. Further, He also knew/knows WHY you will eat what you will eat (or not). There is no state of being that you can adopt that God doesn't already know -- and that He didn't plan -- and yet, your action to eat whatever for lunch is FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE an absolutely FREE action based on your will and based on your circumstances.

And there is your answer... God can SO easily arrange circumstances to suit His divine will that He can and does whatever He needs to do to insure that His will is true always (there is NO other state that His will can inhabit, for to will is to be as far as God is concerned -- think about that for a bit). That God can will every particle in the cosmos is beyond human comprehension, but not beyond human logic, nor beyond Scriptural revelation, both of which admit that an all-powerful, all-knowing God could/can do all.

Your objection then is the problem of evil, which is only a problem for rebellious human beings who reject the fact that God is God. From His perspective, there is no true rebellion nor any true problem with evil. He wills and it is -- period. To US, there is a problem with evil, for our moral compass is skewed when we see what appears to be great evil in the world -- as if God neither cares nor is powerful enough to halt -- BUT -- in the plans of God that evil has a purpose and I expect that we will become fully aware of that purpose once we see face-to-face ALL of the facts that God was manipulating in order to bring about His good and perfect will for His divine purpose (only one), and for His ultimate glory.

GL, do you see any distinction between "control" and "authority". As I see it God had complete "authority" and can exercise complete "control" whenever and however He sees fit. I do not "believe" that omniscience = determinism.

 

[Tom Butler]

GL, your post #54 is really helpful to my understanding, and I'm sure it is to others, as well.

I would describe it as brilliant, but I wouldn't want to create any situation where you might quit being humble.

 

[glfredrick]

GL, do you see any distinction between "control" and "authority". As I see it God had complete "authority" and can exercise complete "control" whenever and however He sees fit. I do not "believe" that omniscience = determinism.

Nor do I... Determinism (in the fatalistic sense that it is used) is a red herring argument used against Calvinism.

Allah is a fatalistically-deterministic god. The God of the Bible created creatures in His image -- cursed by their fall into sin and in a state of separation from God -- and yet possessing free moral agency (in a limited fashion -- we DO NOT have libertarian free will as did Adam (Eve), the first and only "free man" on this earth until Christ was born a man) that brings with it culpability for sin.

God both knows and arranges all things but does not "determine" in such a fashion so as to eliminate the free moral agency of people -- something that to Him is literally child's play because of two reasons: First, He knows EXHAUSTIVELY all things, down to the quantum level movement of sub-atomic particles and guides them as He wills, and second, what He wills IS, for anything else would make God something other than God.

Now, a question back atcha... By what scenario could God WILL something and it not be? How would God reconcile that sort of issue? And, is that not precisely what those who hold that God does not control all things by the power AND authority of His will are saying?

 

[glfredrick]

GL, your post #54 is really helpful to my understanding, and I'm sure it is to others, as well.

I would describe it as brilliant, but I wouldn't want to create any situation where you might quit being humble.

Thank you, and I am actually considerably a humble man. God sees to it. I have my own "thorns in the flesh" to make sure I stay that way. for instance, fingers that are currently bleeding while I type on the keyboard and a host of birth defects that could make my life a living hell at any given moment.

I'm not here arguing this stuff to just make people angry, to illicit a response, etc. I lay my neck before the King's sword and give Him permission to do with me as He would like. Not that I have to... I GET to!

That He would take a vile sinner such as I and give me life and hope and love is beyond comprehension to me. That is not an act -- it is a VERY real thing in my life.

Now, back to the party... :laugh:

 

[Benjamin]

God determines all things, but not quite in the manner in which you describe. You ask a complicated question along the lines of, "Did your wife enjoy it when you stopped beating her?" where any answer that one gives will automatically be incriminating and wrong.

Rather, we have a scnenario where God is ultimately in control of every sub-atomic particle in the cosmos. He HAS to be in order to be God, for if ANYTHING could over-rule Him, that thing would exert more power than Almighty God, so logically, like it or not, God IS sovereign (at least the God self-revealed in Scripture).

But, the WAY He controls all things is where fatalistic determination falls short, for there IS NO SUCH THING. If that were so, we could neither love God nor have any reason for faith, both of which God has decreed (indeed, unless He ordained and created both the concepts and the ability there would be neither!). Take your example of lunch next Friday, for instance. God already KNOWS what you will eat for lunch next Friday. He knew that before He created you. Further, He also knew/knows WHY you will eat what you will eat (or not). There is no state of being that you can adopt that God doesn't already know -- and that He didn't plan -- and yet, your action to eat whatever for lunch is FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE an absolutely FREE action based on your will and based on your circumstances.

And there is your answer... God can SO easily arrange circumstances to suit His divine will that He can and does whatever He needs to do to insure that His will is true always (there is NO other state that His will can inhabit, for to will is to be as far as God is concerned -- think about that for a bit). That God can will every particle in the cosmos is beyond human comprehension, but not beyond human logic, nor beyond Scriptural revelation, both of which admit that an all-powerful, all-knowing God could/can do all.

Your objection then is the problem of evil, which is only a problem for rebellious human beings who reject the fact that God is God. From His perspective, there is no true rebellion nor any true problem with evil. He wills and it is -- period. To US, there is a problem with evil, for our moral compass is skewed when we see what appears to be great evil in the world -- as if God neither cares nor is powerful enough to halt -- BUT -- in the plans of God that evil has a purpose and I expect that we will become fully aware of that purpose once we see face-to-face ALL of the facts that God was manipulating in order to bring about His good and perfect will for His divine purpose (only one), and for His ultimate glory.

That explains it, it is all simply an allusion to us that what is (all things including the origins of evil) “actually” under the ultimate control of God, which is a must in order to be sovereign btw, which isn’t “fatalistic determinism” btw, because what appears to be an “absolutely” necessity to avoid theological fatalism in reality it is not actually “absolute” …it is just us rebellious types that believe things like evil being attributed to God’s nature and things like absolutes which cannot be true and can be true at the same time that is what is the problem here; it’s that darn perspective of ours that “truth” is actually “truth”. It's all in the “way” He controls all things, you see, God be can true and not true at the same time, because Truth doesn’t “actually” exist, …got it!

 

[glfredrick]

That explains it, it is all simply an allusion to us that what is (all things including the origins of evil) “actually” under the ultimate control of God, which is a must in order to be sovereign btw, which isn’t “fatalistic determinism” btw, because what appears to be an “absolutely” necessity to avoid theological fatalism in reality it is not actually “absolute” …it is just us rebellious types that believe things like evil being attributed to God’s nature and things like absolutes which cannot be true and can be true at the same time that is what is the problem here; it’s that darn perspective of ours that “truth” is actually “truth”. It all in the “way” He controls all things, God be can true and not true at the same time, because Truth doesn’t “actually” exist, …got it!

Why the anger? Is that of God? Or is it of the rebellious enemy of God?

You are CONSTANTLY on this board telling us that YOUR POSITION represents God and God's Word, and yet you are SO SO SO ANGRY. That is not God. That is YOU. Can you not see it? Guess not...

Why not do what I mentioned above and start with the first verse of the Bible and we'll examine the Scriptures together to see what God has indeed said.

Question for you, because I know that the Parable of the Sower is one of the proof-texts that those holding a free will position often use. What is the seed sown?