A Different Salvation?

[The Biblicist]

Please explain how one is saved without a knowledge of Christ.
If so, why not now?

Prior to the first advent anyOne could be saved without any knowledge of "Jesus" which is the name of the virgin born man. However, none can be saved without any knowledge of the "Christ". Prior to the incarnation it is "Christ" (Messiah) which was the object of faith and the hope declared in the Gospel. Upon the birth of "Jesus" it was announced that he was that "Christ" predicted and preached in the gospel by all the prophets.

 

[loDebar]

Rahab had no knowledge of Messiah. Hebrews 11 faith was counted for righteous not salvation. Salvation with a knowledge of Christ was preached.

1Pe 3:18¶
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit

Were righteous who were not Hebrews and had not heard of a Messiah eventually saved?

 

[Van]

Yeah I read the post.
What does that have to do with anything? He is talking about all of the elect having been chosen. Is that a corporate statement? Yes, but the elect are made up of individuals.
I've given a rebuttal, you totally shift the clauses in that verse to say something it does not say. Our election is not dependent upon faith as the initiator. Faith is the result of our election.

Yet another general denial with nothing specific . Say I plan on marketing boom boxes to teenagers, is my target group made of specific individuals? Nope. God planned on His Redeemer redeeming believers. Was His target group made up of specific individuals? Nope

Listen, I am not the one denying scripture. James 2:5 says God chose those rich in faith. End of dispute.

 

[The Biblicist]

Hebrews 11 faith was counted for righteous not salvation.

First, Acts 10:43 explicitly repudiates your view of Rahab and Hebrews 11.

1Pe 3:18

¶
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit

Were righteous who were not Hebrews and had not heard of a Messiah eventually saved?

These are highly debated texts with various interpretations whereas Acts 10:43 is clear, unambiguous which repudiates your view completely.

Let me ask you just two simple questions

1. - "Is there salvation for anyone at any time OUTSIDE of Christ"?
2. Are there people who are neither "in Adam" or "in Christ" at any point in time on planet earth?

 

[The Biblicist]

faith was counted for righteous not salvation.

.
It is highly disturbing that anyone on a "Baptist" forum would say what is said above or believe such!

Justification has never changed. Justification includes remission of sins (Rom. 4:7-8) and imputed righteousness of Christ as there is no other righteousness available that can resolve condemnation under law. Justification has been and always will be by faith in Christ as Paul makes clear that the gospel was preached to Abraham and he believed exactly as we do (Gal. 3:6-8).

 

[loDebar]

First, Acts 10:43 explicitly repudiates your view of Rahab and Hebrews 11.


These are highly debated texts with various interpretations whereas Acts 10:43 is clear, unambiguous which repudiates your view completely.

Let me ask you just two simple questions

1. - "Is there salvation for anyone at any time OUTSIDE of Christ"?
2. Are there people who are neither "in Adam" or "in Christ" at any point in time on planet earth?

name the prophets who told Rahab about the Messiah before she helped he spies. Most of Hebrews 11 only had faith.

There is no salvation outside of Christ, but you seem to say so by saying the OT saints were saved without a knowledge of Jesus. You seem to present a knowledge of a coming Messiah is adequate. We know this is inadequate. because "He that hath the Son hath life"

Yes, there might be a third type of human bodies without souls
. You use of in Adam is a misnomer for the lost.. It is humanism.

 

[The Biblicist]

name the prophets who told Rahab about the Messiah before she helped he spies. Most of Hebrews 11 only had faith.

There is no salvation outside of Christ, but you seem to say so by saying the OT saints were saved without a knowledge of Jesus. You seem to present a knowledge of a coming Messiah is adequate. We know this is inadequate. because "He that hath the Son hath life"

Yes, there might be a third type of human bodies without souls
. You use of in Adam is a misnomer for the lost.. It is humanism.

 

[Reformed1689]

Say I plan on marketing boom boxes to teenagers, is my target group made of specific individuals?

That's not even close to being an equal comparison.

Nope. God planned on His Redeemer redeeming believers. Was His target group made up of specific individuals? Nope

Of course, it was. Scripture says so.

Listen, I am not the one denying scripture. James 2:5 says God chose those rich in faith. End of dispute.

This would be laughable if it was not such an abuse of Scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

name the prophets who told Rahab about the Messiah before she helped he spies.

Acts 10:43 says only that "all the prophets" preached Christ it does not say they were the ONLY ones that preached Christ as that has always been the responsibility of all true believers, e.g. like the two spies that made face to face contact with her.

Most of Hebrews 11 only had faith.

The only kind of faith that fits your description is blind faith and that is not the faith of Hebrews 11. Note the definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1. Faith must have "substance" as the basis for "hope" and that substance is the gospel and that hope is declared in the gospel and that has to do with dealing with sins - remission of sins (Acts 10:43). Note again that Acts 10:43 defines the gospel from the first prophet (Abel) to the last prophet (John the Baptist) and it is not simply "faith" but faith in a specific object "that whosoever believeth IN HIS NAME shall receive remission of sins."

Now, what does "in his name" mean? A "name" represents that person, his revealed will, and his character. The Messiah is Jesus as the meaning of "Jesus" is "Jehovah is salvation" and Jesus is the Old Testament Jehovah THE SON.

There is no salvation outside of Christ, but you seem to say so by saying the OT saints were saved without a knowledge of Jesus.

Why is there no salvation outside of Christ???? Because only HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS can justify sinners. This absolute false doctrine of "faith is counted for righteousness" as though EMPTY faith can justify anyone is absurd. Faith must have a proper object or it is VAIN faith and the ONLY proper object with regard to justification before God is the righteousness found in Christ alone. Paul says that Isaiah 53 was the preaching of the gospel of Christ as the proper object of faith (Rom. 10:16-17).

You seem to present a knowledge of a coming Messiah is adequate. We know this is inadequate. because "He that hath the Son hath life"

Say that to Peter because he flatly contradicts you in Acts 10:43. Say that to Paul as he flatly contradicts you in Hebrews 4:2. Jesus IS the Christ and as "Jehovah is salvation" has always been the "Son of God" preincarnate or God the Son.

Yes, there might be a third type of human bodies without souls
. You use of in Adam is a misnomer for the lost.. It is humanism.[/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

That directly contradicts Ephesians 1:4

You see, that is your problem Dave. You are reading the text as it is,and not how you would like it to be.
Even though the historic Church understands it that way,you are now on BB.where sometimes if you post an error,over and over, and over again.it s to accounted as a new truth.
Let me explain
When you were in high school English class, the teacher would ask;now what does this poem mean to you?
That is the exact method that some use to declare how they feel the text should be understood
That David is the Rosetta stone you need to get a clear idea.
Do not rely on man made doctrines and isms.
Okay,try to pull yourself together now...you have been called arrogant and rude do you are officially a "member" in good standing now

 

[The Biblicist]

"Faith is CREDITED as Righteousness" is heresy pure and simple. It is a complete repudiation of the gospel of Christ and is "another gospel."

The value of faith is in its OBJECT. There is no "righteousness" that can justify sinners outside of and apart from the righteousness of Christ and any faith that does not have Christ as its object is a "vain" faith.

The gospel was preached to Abraham and he believed the gospel EXACTLY as we do as that is precisely what Paul says:

Gal. 3:6 EVEN AS Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Notice, the faith that justified Abraham is the faith inseparable from the gospel being preached to Abraham.

To claim that "faith" provided righteousness but no salvation is so distorted and perverted that it exasperates any rational mind to know where to begin to expose that error as there are so many starting points to expose it. There is no salvation outside of Christ because there is no righteousness with regard to justification/salvation apart from Christ's righteousness. There is no justification unrelated to Christ, there is no remission of sins unrelated to Christ, there is no kind of salvation apart from Christ and being "in Christ."

 

[The Biblicist]

God planned on His Redeemer redeeming believers.

Nowhere does scripture say that or even hint of something like that. God planned on His Redeemer redeeming SINNERS not "beleivers" because "believers" are already redeemed!

Listen, I am not the one denying scripture. James 2:5 says God chose those rich in faith. End of dispute.

Yes you are! James says nothing about God choosing those rich in faith but choosing "the poor" who are rich in faith which in context he is defending bias toward the rich who also might be believers along with the poor in the same congregations.

Faith is a GIFT of God (Philip. 1:29) and but receiving those promises of the world to come is "through faith" THAT IT MIGHT BE ACCORDING TO or IN KEEPING with GRACE - Rom. 4:16. The perfect tense completed action of "saved" in Ephesians 2:8 includes "through faith" or else it could not be a completed action and therefore the whole phrase "saved through faith" is THE GIFT of God. Hence, there is no "faith" that can be foreseen by God as justifying faith originates with God not men.

 

[loDebar]

First, Acts 10:43 explicitly repudiates your view of Rahab and Hebrews 11.


These are highly debated texts with various interpretations whereas Acts 10:43 is clear, unambiguous which repudiates your view completely.

Let me ask you just two simple questions

1. - "Is there salvation for anyone at any time OUTSIDE of Christ"?
2. Are there people who are neither "in Adam" or "in Christ" at any point in time on planet earth?

name the prophets who told Rahab about

.
It is highly disturbing that anyone on a "Baptist" forum would say what is said above or believe such!

Justification has never changed. Justification includes remission of sins (Rom. 4:7-8) and imputed righteousness of Christ as there is no other righteousness available that can resolve condemnation under law. Justification has been and always will be by faith in Christ as Paul makes clear that the gospel was preached to Abraham and he believed exactly as we do (Gal. 3:6-8).

Gen 15:3

And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Gen 15:4

¶
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
Gen 15:5

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 15:6

¶
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 

[loDebar]

one can't be saved without Jesus,

1Jo 5:12

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not theSon of God hath not life.

A coming Messiah for the OT saints was not salvation without Jesus,. Keeping the Law of Moses was not for Salvation. The sacrifices was of The Sacrifice to come, Incomplete without Jesus

You might be a legalist

 

[loDebar]

"Faith is CREDITED as Righteousness" is heresy pure and simple. It is a complete repudiation of the gospel of Christ and is "another gospel."

The value of faith is in its OBJECT. There is no "righteousness" that can justify sinners outside of and apart from the righteousness of Christ and any faith that does not have Christ as its object is a "vain" faith.

The gospel was preached to Abraham and he believed the gospel EXACTLY as we do as that is precisely what Paul says:

Gal. 3:6 EVEN AS Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Notice, the faith that justified Abraham is the faith inseparable from the gospel being preached to Abraham.

To claim that "faith" provided righteousness but no salvation is so distorted and perverted that it exasperates any rational mind to know where to begin to expose that error as there are so many starting points to expose it. There is no salvation outside of Christ because there is no righteousness with regard to justification/salvation apart from Christ's righteousness. There is no justification unrelated to Christ, there is no remission of sins unrelated to Christ, there is no kind of salvation apart from Christ and being "in Christ."

When and How as OT saints saved then?

 

[The Biblicist]

name the prophets who told Rahab about

Read my post again because I answer it and give you an explicit answer! However, for your sake I will say it again. You are misinterpreting Acts 10:43 to mean that ONLY prophets preached the gospel. ALL believers have that responsibility and the TWO SPIES could have preached the gospel to them. However, indisputably is the fact that the gospel was preached by "all" the prophets and by others (Heb. 4:2) and there is no salvation, there is no justification by faith, there is no remission of sins for anyone at anytime outside of Christ or apart from faith in the gospel.

Gen 15:3

And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Gen 15:4

¶
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
Gen 15:5

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 15:6

¶
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

You are not inspired nor am I inspired, right? Why don't you believe an inspired man's interpretation of Abraham's faith? Read it - Gal. 3:6-8 - and it is not a faith unrelated to the gospel but in fact it is faith in the gospel as Paul says "EVEN AS" Abraham believed so do we but your position is the opposite! You claim Abraham's justification is different than ours. I will take an inspired interpretation on this matter.

 

[The Biblicist]

one can't be saved without Jesus,

1Jo 5:12

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not theSon of God hath not life.

A coming Messiah for the OT saints was not salvation without Jesus,. Keeping the Law of Moses was not for Salvation. The sacrifices was of The Sacrifice to come, Incomplete without Jesus

You might be a legalist

Don't you understand that when names are given in Bible times it is either because they characterize the person and/or some promise to that person???? Why was the baby of Mary called "Jesus"? What does the name "Jesus" mean? It means "Jehovah is salvation" and thus Jesus is the Christ before he was born and after he was born. So the gospel "OF CHRIST" was preached before he was born and after he was born. He is THE SON OF GOD both BEFORE he was born and after he was born.

No, salvation has ALWAYS BEEN by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone without works both before and after the cross.

Now, if I had said "you might be a legalist" I would have been censored, had a whole thread written against me about using ad hominen language and being "unchristlike" but when you guys say it - everything is just fine!

 

[The Biblicist]

When and How as OT saints saved then?

Have you read Acts 10:43? Do you believe what you read? If you do, you have your answer, if you don't then the problem is not with that scripture but with the one not believing it.

Have you read Gal. 3:6-8? "EVEN AS" hence "they which are of faith" EVEN AS or like Abraham's faith these are "the children of Abraham" Do you believe what you read? If you do, you have your answer, if you don't then the problem is not with that scripture but with the one not believing it.

Notice, that "the children of Abraham" are those "of faith" EVEN AS Abraham believed - BUT YOU DENY THAT HE WAS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH JUST LIKE WE ARE!

Notice, that EVEN AS abraham believed included the gospel being preached (Gal. 3:8) the very same gospel as Paul says in the very same book that "any other gospel" is accursed. Was there an accursed gospel preached to Abraham?????

 

[loDebar]

His names was Y shua

Yeshua or Y'shua (ישוע, with vowel pointing יֵשׁוּעַ – yēšūă' in Hebrew) was a common alternative form of the name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ ("Yehoshua" – Joshua) in later books of the Hebrew Bible and among Jews of the Second Temple period.

It was a very common name

Grace and faith in Christ

I agree with you, then you add OT saints are saved without even knowing of Jesus of a Messiah. You contradict yourself.

I support the legalistic clam because you seem to require a Law to compare too. The believer reacts by Love

 

[loDebar]

Justification is not Salvation.
One is not saved without Jesus.

He received the complete Gospel when Jesus preached to the dead. ?
He believed on the finished work of Calvary, just like us
Those in Paradise could not enter Heaven until the Sacrifice was made. We can now.