A Different Salvation?

[Van]

I see Mr. Taylor now claims he did not imply I was a coward. Note the effort to change the subject to whether or not he engaged in name calling, rather than the thread topic. Obfuscation on display. And now he asked if Jesus was an advocate of falsehood. More obfuscation, more strawman deflections, more denial of the obvious.

 

[Reformed1689]

And of course, this is all nonsense.

1) Yes we are individually given to the Son, John 6:37. That is not in dispute. The Election of Ephesians 1:4 did not give anyone to Christ, it was a corporate election. That is what you are disputing.

Good, glad that isn't in dispute. But the Election of Eph 1:4 is written to individuals. This idea of a corporate election is a Red Herring.

2) No one said the Election of Ephesians 1:4 was from the beginning of the New Covenant. This not in dispute, but rather a strawman argument to muddy the water.

This is not a strawman. YOU made that comment. YOU said the beginning was not the beginning of time, but the New Covenant. That is the whole basis of this entire thread. A Different Salvation?

3) No one said the corporate election was a fishing net cast to see who ends up in it. It was the target group of God's redemption plan, formulated before creation.

No but that is the logical end of a target group.

4) God knows those He has individually chosen based on crediting their faith as righteousness.

Romans 8 directly refutes this. He knew individuals and chose them BEFORE they exercised their faith.

6) The entire bible blows your assertion out of the water. See anyone can make these generalizations.

I didn't make a generalization. I made specific references.

7) Yes, God chose us individually to give to the Son. This is not in dispute. The timing and basis of the selection is in dispute. God chose us during our lifetime, after we had lived not as a people chosen for God's own possession, on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness.

God did not choose us in our lifetime. That goes in the face of Scripture that says he forknew those that He chose. We were chosen BEFORE THE FOUNDATION of the world. That's not in our lifetime. Faith is a gift because we were chosen. You preach a works-based salvation because you make it that we are only chosen AFTER we do the work of faith rather than faith being given to us because we are chosen.

 

[Reformed1689]

I see Mr. Taylor now claims he did not imply I was a coward. Note the effort to change the subject to whether or not he engaged in name calling, rather than the thread topic. Obfuscation on display. And now he asked if Jesus was an advocate of falsehood. More obfuscation, more strawman deflections, more denial of the obvious.

Obfuscation must be your favorite word when you lose an argument.

 

[Van]

And of course, this is all nonsense. SNIP

Yes your efforts were all nonsense.

Ephesians 1:4 is rewritten to individuals who were individually chosen during their lifetime, receiving the blessing of being redeemed, which of course was put in motion when God chose His redeemer and His corporate target group.

No need to say since the beginning refers to the New Covenant in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, its means the New Covenant everywhere the word is used. Obfuscation on display.

Wait, did you just agree that logically a corporately chosen target group is not made up of individuals?

Referring to Romans 8 and 9 is what you call a specific reference. Well Romans 8 and 9 blows your view out of the water!!

You seem to have no idea what "foreknew" means. It refers to something known in the past that is being utilized in the present. So before creation, God knew He planned on redeeming believers, and therefore He "foreknew"

 

[Van]

Obfuscation must be your favorite word when you lose an argument.

More denial of the obvious, but you used coward and idiotic and mind reading assertions. Obfuscation on display.

 

[Reformed1689]

Ephesians 1:4 is rewritten to individuals who were individually chosen during their lifetime, receiving the blessing of being redeemed, which of course was put in motion when God chose His redeemer and His corporate target group.

Show me where the Bible teaches that we are chosen in our lifetime. It's not there.

No need to say since the beginning refers to the New Covenant in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, its means the New Covenant everywhere the word is used. Obfuscation on display.

Which word exactly?

Wait, did you just agree that logically a corporately chosen target group is not made up of individuals?

No

Referring to Romans 8 and 9 is what you call a specific reference. Well Romans 8 and 9 blows your view out of the water!!

Prove it.

You seem to have no idea what "foreknew" means. It refers to something known in the past that is being utilized in the present. So before creation, God knew He planned on redeeming believers, and therefore He "foreknew"

Actually this shows you have no idea what foreknew means in that verse. What is foreknown in that verse? THOSE. In other words PEOPLE. Individuals. The ones He foreknew he predestined to salvation. Those who he predestined he then CALLED. He didn't call them AFTER they exercised faith. He called them before because he had already predestined them. He had already chosen them.

 

[Reformed1689]

More denial of the obvious, but you used coward and idiotic and mind reading assertions. Obfuscation on display.

For the record, idiotic wasn't an assertion, it was a statment of fact. Your statements WERE and ARE idiotic.

 

[percho]

Paul was going down the road to Damascus, ignorant in unbelief, to imprison and or have Christians killed.

Did the encounter with Jesus cause Paul to change Paul's mind or did the encounter and subsequent being given the Holy Spirit cause a renewing of the mind of Paul unto belief.

Why did he become, one of belief, one of faith?

Did he do it or was it done unto him?

Did the idol worshiper Abram all of a sudden believe or was he chosen by God unto belief, to be one of faith, that is, that in his seed, all the nations of the earth would be blessed?

 

[loDebar]

God calls all, We can only accept or reject

The rich young ruler, and the parable of the sower are the lessons

 

[Reformed1689]

God calls all, We can only accept or reject

The rich young ruler, and the parable of the sower are the lessons

God calls all generally, yes. But he only draws some to actual saving grace. The general call is to proclaim the Gospel. Those people are without excuse. But only the elect are drawn and given to Christ.

 

[loDebar]

your favorite verse selah

Luk 5:32

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I do not think God calls Yankees nor West Virginians , He only draws Southerners. do you disagree?
show me the verse

 

[Reformed1689]

your favorite verse selah

Luk 5:32

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I do not think God calls Yankees nor West Virginians , He only draws Southerners. do you disagree?
show me the verse

Who is this supposed to be a response to?

 

[Van]

Show me where the Bible teaches that we are chosen in our lifetime. It's not there.

2 Thess. 2:13, James 2:5. We were chosen through faith and we came to faith during our lifetime. QED

BTW, name calling is the crutch of a crippled argument.

 

[percho]

We are told, Abraham died in faith, not having received the promises.

I have a question.

who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

The Son above died, How long was he dead?

What obedience did he learn?

Was it, obedience of faith?

Consider:
also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. From Rom 5:19 YLT
so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, Gal 3:24 YLT

By grace through the faith

Who's obedience of faith?

 

[Reformed1689]

2 Thess. 2:13, James 2:5. We were chosen through faith and we came to faith during our lifetime. QED

BTW, name calling is the crutch of a crippled argument.

Neither of those say we were chosen in our lifetime as we have already discussed. Nor were we chosen through (because of) faith. you conveniently ignore verse structure to get to that interpretation.

 

[loDebar]

And of course, this is all nonsense.

Good, glad that isn't in dispute. But the Election of Eph 1:4 is written to individuals. This idea of a corporate election is a Red Herring.

This is not a strawman. YOU made that comment. YOU said the beginning was not the beginning of time, but the New Covenant. That is the whole basis of this entire thread. A Different Salvation?

No but that is the logical end of a target group.

Romans 8 directly refutes this. He knew individuals and chose them BEFORE they exercised their faith.

I didn't make a generalization. I made specific references.

God did not choose us in our lifetime. That goes in the face of Scripture that says he forknew those that He chose. We were chosen BEFORE THE FOUNDATION of the world. That's not in our lifetime. Faith is a gift because we were chosen. You preach a works-based salvation because you make it that we are only chosen AFTER we do the work of faith rather than faith being given to us because we are chosen.

you were not chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world but you existed and had a relationship with God. You were chosen for a birth in a place time, family etc, to hear and male a choice. Salvation is offered, few accept it.ball will know it

Luk 3:4

As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Luk 3:5

Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
Luk 3:6

And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.


Isa 45:22

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

1Ti 2:3
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Van]

Ah, the reference to the unreferenced past. I think that was when you admitted you can't really mind read. And I see now you claim neither verse means what it says, we are chosen through faith.

 

[loDebar]

We are told, Abraham died in faith, not having received the promises.

I have a question.

who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

The Son above died, How long was he dead?

What obedience did he learn?

Was it, obedience of faith?

Consider:
also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. From Rom 5:19 YLT
so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, Gal 3:24 YLT

By grace through the faith

Who's obedience of faith?

Your's unless you think we rely on Chris's faith of finished action. We don't need faith of what is accomplished. Heb 11

 

[loDebar]

Faith alone dies not save. We have to have faith in the correct place, We believe Christ is willing and able to accomplish salvation, or His promises

 

[Reformed1689]

Ah, the reference to the unreferenced past. I think that was when you admitted you can't really mind read. And I see now you claim neither verse means what it says, we are chosen through faith.

Except for one problem, that's not what it says. James 2:5 says nothing about being chosen through faith whatsoever. The 2 Thes. verse doesn't say it either. What does that verse say? It says God chose you to be saved INSERT COMMA. How were you going to be saved? Through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in truth. It in no way says we were chosen through faith. It says faith is how the choosing would be fulfilled. We were already chosen before faith.