A Different Salvation?

[Van]

Except for one problem, that's not what it says.

Tis

 

[Reformed1689]

Tis

You need to go back and read my full response, not just the minimal quote.

 

[loDebar]

God has opportunities for us to serve Him to show others Salvation, We cant serve unless we accept His will over ours. In surrender to His Salvation

There is only complete surrender, at that point we may be chosen for particular service that God has prepared and prepared us for

God directs us

Act 16:6

¶
Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,


Act 16:9

And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Act 16:10

And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

 

[The Biblicist]

His names was Y shua

Yeshua or Y'shua (ישוע, with vowel pointing יֵשׁוּעַ – yēšūă' in Hebrew) was a common alternative form of the name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ ("Yehoshua" – Joshua) in later books of the Hebrew Bible and among Jews of the Second Temple period.

It was a very common name

But it was UNCOMMONLY GIVEN to the babe in the manger because Matthew makes a point of its MEANING - Mt. 1:21 "for he will save" his people. He then makes a point of the first part of that name "Immanual being interpreted God with us". The Christ is preached throughout the Old Testament scriptures for remission of sins (Acts 10:43) and that is Yahweh the Son of God our Savior or "Jesus."

you seem to require a Law to compare too. The believer reacts by Love

How in the world can you draw that conclusion of my position when I told you point blank it was "by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE WITHOUT WORKS." The problem is that you have such a messed up system of thinking you can't see the truth right in front of you.

 

[Van]

You need to go back and read my full response, not just the minimal quote.

After careful analysis, I think all you did was invent various ways of denial.

 

[loDebar]

But it was UNCOMMONLY GIVEN to the babe in the manger because Matthew makes a point of its MEANING - Mt. 1:21 "for he will save" his people. He then makes a point of the first part of that name "Immanual being interpreted God with us". The Christ is preached throughout the Old Testament scriptures for remission of sins (Acts 10:43) and that is Yahweh the Son of God our Savior or "Jesus."




How in the world can you draw that conclusion of my position when I told you point blank it was "by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE WITHOUT WORKS." The problem is that you have such a messed up system of thinking you can't see the truth right in front of you.

it is a common name 4 are in scripture in the OT There are derivations too. The OT did not know the name Jesus or Y'shua or Yĕhowshuwa` particular to the Messiah 218 times, none relate to the Messiah

I make the claim because of your emphasis on "God's Law " , looks like more rules for you to uphold

 

[The Biblicist]

it is a common name 4 are in scripture in the OT There are derivations too. The OT did not know the name Jesus or Y'shua or Yĕhowshuwa` particular to the Messiah 218 times, none relate to the Messiah

Don't you understand that the angel gave him that name because of its meaning? Matthew tells you that explicitly - read it! Mary and Joseph did not come up with the name. He is Yahew or "God" with us and that is part of the meaning of that name. Matthew gives us the other part of its meaning when he says he shall "save" his people. His name fits who he is - God our savior. He is the prophesied "Christ", who is Yahweh and his mission is SAVIOR = Jesus or Yahweh is salvation. This is the same "Christ" which all prophets preached faith in for remission of sins (Acts 10:43).

I make the claim because of your emphasis on "God's Law " , looks like more rules for you to uphold

For example show me where I have every emphasized law for salvation??? You can't, because I never have. I have been one of the most vocal members of this voice against justification by law and I have NEVER said or even hinted such a thing. What is it that you don't understand by my position which is stated in these unambiguous clear words - "justified BY GRACE ALONE through FAITH ALONE in Christ ALONE WITHOUT WORKS- WITHOUT WORKS - WITHOUT WORKS?????????

You are making a false accusation with NOTHING to support it and a whole history of my posts which deny it! Stop making false accusations or come up with evidence from anything I have written to prove what you are charging!!!

 

[Reformed1689]

After careful analysis, I think all you did was invent various ways of denial.

In other words, you can't refute what I said.

 

[Van]

Right, I have no rebuttal to "taint so!"
Your posts appear to be obfuscation, IMHO.

 

[Iconoclast]

Is @Van really going to be a coward about this and just attack me personally instead of actually providing support for his view?

David Taylor,meet Van

 

[Reformed1689]

Right, I have no rebuttal to "taint so!"
Your posts appear to be obfuscation, IMHO.

I said a lot more than just "taint so" as is one of your go to phrases. I talked about the passages themselves and showed how and where you were wrong. Yet you put forth garbage to attack my post without giving any substance.

 

[Reformed1689]

Right, I have no rebuttal to "taint so!"

Since I didn't say "taint so" I guess you just don't have a rebuttal and have accepted loss.

 

[loDebar]

Don't you understand that the angel gave him that name because of its meaning? Matthew tells you that explicitly - read it! Mary and Joseph did not come up with the name. He is Yahew or "God" with us and that is part of the meaning of that name. Matthew gives us the other part of its meaning when he says he shall "save" his people. His name fits who he is - God our savior. He is the prophesied "Christ", who is Yahweh and his mission is SAVIOR = Jesus or Yahweh is salvation. This is the same "Christ" which all prophets preached faith in for remission of sins (Acts 10:43).



For example show me where I have every emphasized law for salvation??? You can't, because I never have. I have been one of the most vocal members of this voice against justification by law and I have NEVER said or even hinted such a thing. What is it that you don't understand by my position which is stated in these unambiguous clear words - "justified BY GRACE ALONE through FAITH ALONE in Christ ALONE WITHOUT WORKS- WITHOUT WORKS - WITHOUT WORKS?????????

You are making a false accusation with NOTHING to support it and a whole history of my posts which deny it! Stop making false accusations or come up with evidence from anything I have written to prove what you are charging!!!

The fact of the name of Jesus means something is of no consequence. The people in the OT did not know His name.

I did not say you are against Salvation by Grace. I said you also emphasis additional law .even in Grace

 

[MB]

Except for one problem, that's not what it says. James 2:5 says nothing about being chosen through faith whatsoever. The 2 Thes. verse doesn't say it either. What does that verse say? It says God chose you to be saved INSERT COMMA. How were you going to be saved? Through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in truth. It in no way says we were chosen through faith. It says faith is how the choosing would be fulfilled. We were already chosen before faith.

I don't see how it is that you misquote scripture all the time.
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Obviously you don't want to read the whole verse. Belief is faith
Looks like your rebuttal is defeated,
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

I don't see how it is that you misquote scripture all the time.
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Obviously you don't want to read the whole verse. Belief is faith
Looks like your rebuttal is defeated,
MB

I did not misquote anything. Let me copy/paste for you:



Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? James 2:5 (ESV)

Notice it does not say chosen because of faith. They were chosen TO BE RICH in faith.



But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 2 Thes. 2:13 (ESV)

Where did I misquote this verse? See the commas?

 

[Van]

Thanks MB, I told Mr. Taylor the "to be" is not in the text, it is an alteration of the translators.
As far as his 2 Thess. 2:13, note the phrase "to be saved" is a rewrite of the actual text, where a noun is changed to a verb.

 

[MB]

Except for one problem, that's not what it says. James 2:5 says nothing about being chosen through faith whatsoever. The 2 Thes. verse doesn't say it either. What does that verse say? It says God chose you to be saved INSERT COMMA. How were you going to be saved? Through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in truth. It in no way says we were chosen through faith. It says faith is how the choosing would be fulfilled. We were already chosen before faith.

First of all it does not say "God chose you to be saved" worst of all there is no comma.

It says;2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
You refuse to admit that we are chosen through all those things listed. Typical of Calvinist they refuse to believe the whole verse just the parts they want
to believe. Pick and choose is all you can admit to.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Thanks MB, I told Mr. Taylor the "to be" is not in the text, it is an alteration of the translators.
As far as his 2 Thess. 2:13, note the phrase "to be saved" is a rewrite of the actual text, where a noun is changed to a verb.

What translation would you like to use for this verse?

 

[The Biblicist]

The fact of the name of Jesus means something is of no consequence. The people in the OT did not know His name.

Peter says they did know his name and believed in his name - "TO HIM give all the prophets witness that whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIS NAME shall receive remission of sin" - Acts 10:43. Now, Peter says this by inspiration and you make your claim by ignormation. I will believe Peter.

I did not say you are against Salvation by Grace. I said you also emphasis additional law .even in Grace

SNIP Either put up or shut up! SNIP

 

[The Biblicist]

First of all it does not say "God chose you to be saved" worst of all there is no comma.

It says;2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
You refuse to admit that we are chosen through all those things listed. Typical of Calvinist they refuse to believe the whole verse just the parts they want
to believe. Pick and choose is all you can admit to.
MB

Both you and Van are distorting this text! "salvation" is a translation of a Greek noun found in the accusative case which serves as the direct object of the verb "chosen." Every beginning Greek student knows the accusative case is the case of termination of action and is commonly used as the direct object and is the direct object of "chosen" in this verse. In direct contrast "through sanctification and belief of the truth" is a second prepositional phrase which modifies "salvation". Hence, they were chosen to salvation "FROM THE BEGINNING" but "sanctification and belief of the truth" occurred with the action of sanctification by the Spirit IN TIME, and IN TIME it is this salvation that is "through sanctification of the Spirit" FIRST "and" SECOND "belief of the truth." There is a contrast of what God did in eternnity past and what the Holy Spirit does in time - God in eternity past chose us unto salvation. The Holy Spirit in time made that salvation occur by "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." This action in time is the effectual call "whereunto he called us by our gospel to the obtaining of glory."

IN TIME "Sanctification" or "setting apart by the Holy Spirit PRECEDES "belief of the truth" as faith is a fruit of the Spirit and produced in regeneration as regeneration CHANGES THE HEARTS INCLINATION FROM "enmity against God" (Rom. 8:7). Thus verse 14 defines "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" as the effectual call - "Whereunto ("belief of the truth") he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Likewise, Van is perverting Ephesians2:8. "saved by grace" is "through faith" as one inseparable action because "saved" translates a PERFECT TENSE verb. Do you know the implications of a perfect tense verb with regard to ACTION? I suspect not! A perfect tense verb demands the action has been fully completed in past time and stands completed right up to the time Paul wrote this verse. Since, that completed action is "through faith" this means that "through faith" was part of that completed action or else there is no "saved" completed action at all since that action was completed "through faith." This means that "not of yourselves for it is a gift of God" must necessarily incude the whole phrase "saved by grace through faith" as that is a singular completed action.

Don't give me this nonsense that "not of yoursevles for it is a gift of God" is neuter ("it") and can't modify "faith" because faith is feminine!! That is complete and utter nonsense BECAUSE THERE IS NO FEMININE found in any of the words "saved by grace through faith" and so if that argument were true "it" could not refer to "saved" or "faith" because neither is feminine. "It" refers to the whole phrase and MUST because the whole phrase is grammatically ONE COMPLETED ACTION MAKING "SAVED" INSEPARABLE FROM "THROUGH FAITH" WITH REGARD TO THE ACTION.

Moreover, Paul had already told them they were "saved by grace" in verse 5 and the only thing he has added is the prepositional phrase "through faith" and that is what Paul is denying is of works as "saved by grace" obviously is not of works but "by grace" and so the whole point is that Paul is saying "saved by grace through faith" as a completed action IS NOT OF YOURSELVES BUT IS A GIFT OF GOD.

Van, By the way Dr. Daniel B. Wallace agrees with my interpretation of Ephesians 2:8 and I quote:

"More plausible is the third view, vi., that touto refers to the conept of a grace-by-faith salvation" - Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996 - p. 335

Wallace completely ignores the perfect tense completed action of "saved" and its impact upon "through faith" as inseparable in action, as well as the contextual flow from verse 5 to verse 8. Why? Because that would force him to come to my conclusion
Sorry, but you simply don't know what you are talking about.

Now, to the rest of our readers, we all know how Van and his allies are going to respond to these cold hard contextual grammatical facts! Yes, ridicule and talking points because they have NOTHING of substance to defend their falsehoods on.