A Different Salvation?

[Van]

That's not even close to being an equal comparison. Of course, it was. Scripture says so.This would be laughable if it was not such an abuse of Scripture.

More denial, so my conclusion is your effort is obfuscation, not explanation.
A corporate group is not made up of individuals. You said it was. Now you say my illustration of the truth is not a valid comparison. Denial, denial, denial. If this is what you are about, I am sorry.

Does scripture say the election of Ephesians 1:4 was individual? Nope, it precludes individuals. 1 Peter 2:9-10. Please do not waste time saying these verses do not say what they say. Anyone can read them.

And folks, just read James 2:5 and see if it says God chose those poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. (And if your translation has "to be" rich in faith, disregard it as "to be" was added by the translators to alter the message.)

 

[Van]

God planned on His Redeemer redeeming believers. John 3:16

James 2:5 say God chose those "poor to the world." In other words, those poor according to the world's value system, yet they were rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. As clear a statement of our conditional election as you could have. The only people who deny it, are those who deny conditional election.

The "gift of pre-salvation faith" is a complete fiction found no where in scripture. Did you see the support cited, Philippians 1:29? They do this all the time, but the verse provides absolutely no support.

"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,"

See the word "granted" it means they were allowed to believe, they were not prevented from believing. But folks reading their false doctrine into the text, claim granted means compelled to come to faith in Christ by irresistible grace. But that of course is found no where in scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Van,
[A corporate group is not made up of individuals. Denial, denial, denial. ]

Yes, this is another denial of truth.
Churches are not made up of individuals ,lol
An assembly is not assembled persons?
Wait, let me get my notebook for these keen insights.

 

[Reformed1689]

More denial, so my conclusion is your effort is obfuscation, not explanation.

This seems to be your go to line...

A corporate group is not made up of individuals. You said it was. Now you say my illustration of the truth is not a valid comparison. Denial, denial, denial. If this is what you are about, I am sorry.

This is just an idiotic statement at best. A corporate group is not made up of individuals? Explain that one.

Does scripture say the election of Ephesians 1:4 was individual? Nope, it precludes individuals. 1 Peter 2:9-10. Please do not waste time saying these verses do not say what they say. Anyone can read them.

How does it preclude individuals? You are making that claim, time to pony up and support it.

James 2:5 say God chose those "poor to the world." In other words, those poor according to the world's value system, yet they were rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. As clear a statement of our conditional election as you could have. The only people who deny it, are those who deny conditional election.

So I guess in your theology a rich man will never be saved because he is not poor to the world?

 

[Van]

snip bogus verbiage

You ask questions, then deny the answers. There is no hope for beneficial discussion with you Sir.

 

[Reformed1689]

You ask questions, then deny the answers. There is no hope for beneficial discussion with you Sir.

You haven't actually given answers. You make statements and then do not provide support for them. I guess you are the one who doesn't actually discuss.

 

[Van]

"Van,
[A corporate group is not made up of individuals. Denial, denial, denial. ]

Yes, this is another denial of truth.
Churches are not made up of individuals ,lol
An assembly is not assembled persons?
Wait, let me get my notebook for these keen insights.

Pay no attention to these change the subject posts. A target group is not made up of individuals, thus those the Redeemer would redeem was the corporate target group of the redemption plan. Thus when God chose His Redeemer individually, He chose us in Him corporately.

 

[Reformed1689]

A target group is not made up of individuals, thus those the Redeemer would redeem was the corporate target group of the redemption plan.

And you insist on making this idiotic statement again. Corporate groups are made up of the individual components that make them corporate.

 

[Van]

You haven't actually given answers. You make statements and then do not provide support for them. I guess you are the one who doesn't actually discuss.

Pitch back response, devoid of content. He denies I answered his questions. Just read the thread folks.

 

[Reformed1689]

Pitch back response, devoid of content. He denies I answered his questions. Just read the thread folks.

I read your answers and asked you to support them. You refuse to do so because you can't.

 

[Van]

And you insist on making this idiotic statement again. Corporate groups are made up of the individual components that make them corporate.

Now he says my illustration of a target group as a corporate group not made up of individuals, but made of of a common trait, (such as belief in Christ) is "idiotic!

 

[Van]

I read your answers and asked you to support them. You refuse to do so because you can't.

Now he is a mind reader, knowing my mind. But just read the thread folks, he is denying the obvious.

 

[Reformed1689]

Now he says my illustration of a target group as a corporate group not made up of individuals, but made of of a common trait, such as belief in Christ) is "idiotic!

And of course you had to twist what was actually said to make yourself puffed up and look righteous. Great tactic.

I said no such thing. I said ALL CORPORATE GROUPS are NECESSARILY made up of INDIVIDUAL components.

 

[Reformed1689]

Now he is a mind reader, knowing my mind. But just read the thread folks, he is denying the obvious.

If you can then do it.

 

[Reformed1689]

Is @Van really going to be a coward about this and just attack me personally instead of actually providing support for his view?

 

[Van]

Mr Taylor is simply repeating false assertions. Target groups sharing a common trait such as belief, are not made up of individuals. His claim is false. And I see Mr. Taylor is now name calling. Such is the last defense of advocates of falsehood. Just read the thread folks.

 

[Reformed1689]

Mr Taylor is simply repeating false assertions. Target groups sharing a common trait such as belief, are not made up of individuals. His claim is false.

We are individually given to the Son by the Father. Read the book of John. We were chosen before the Foundation of the World (note, that is not the foundation of the New Covenant) Ephesians 1:4. Where do you get this target group nonsense as if it is a fishing net just cast and see who ends up in it? Does God not know who He has chosen? Of course He knows. And guess what, it was not based on Him looking down a tunnel of time to see who might believe. Romans 8 and 9 blows that theory sky high. No, he chose us individually to give to the Son based on His own pleasure to bring glory to Himself. He has mercy on whom He has mercy.

 

[Reformed1689]

And I see Mr. Taylor is now name calling. Such is the last defense of advocates of falsehood. Just read the thread folks.

Not a last defense. And to be fair, I didn't actually call you a name. I asked if you WERE GOING TO BE a coward. I did not actually call you a coward. Although the shoe does seem to fit.

 

[Reformed1689]

And I see Mr. Taylor is now name calling. Such is the last defense of advocates of falsehood. Just read the thread folks.

So was Jesus an advocate of falsehood? Was namecalling his last defense?

 

[Van]

We are individually given to the Son by the Father. Read the book of John. We were chosen before the Foundation of the World (note, that is not the foundation of the New Covenant) Ephesians 1:4. Where do you get this target group nonsense as if it is a fishing net just cast and see who ends up in it? Does God not know who He has chosen? Of course He knows. And guess what, it was not based on Him looking down a tunnel of time to see who might believe. Romans 8 and 9 blows that theory sky high. No, he chose us individually to give to the Son based on His own pleasure to bring glory to Himself. He has mercy on whom He has mercy.

1) Yes we are individually given to the Son, John 6:37. That is not in dispute. The Election of Ephesians 1:4 did not give anyone to Christ, it was a corporate election. That is what you are disputing.

2) No one said the Election of Ephesians 1:4 was from the beginning of the New Covenant. This not in dispute, but rather a strawman argument to muddy the water.

3) No one said the corporate election was a fishing net cast to see who ends up in it. It was the target group of God's redemption plan, formulated before creation.

4) God knows those He has individually chosen based on crediting their faith as righteousness.

5) Did anyone say God looked down the tunnel of time? Nope, yet another strawman, demonstrating a lack of understanding the view he is opposing.

6) The entire bible blows your assertion out of the water. See anyone can make these generalizations.

7) Yes, God chose us individually to give to the Son. This is not in dispute. The timing and basis of the selection is in dispute. God chose us during our lifetime, after we had lived not as a people chosen for God's own possession, on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness.

8) Yes God has mercy on whom He has mercy, this is not in dispute, so another strawman.