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A Different Salvation?
- Thread starter Reformed1689
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Salvation has always been by grace through faith in Christ. OT saints did not have the knowledge of the gospel fully revealed to them like we do now, but they did have the promise of the Messiah. Abraham believed God and it was credited to Him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3).
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Agreed. And the beginning of our choosing was eternity past, not the beginning of the New Covenant. That is a pretty radical viewpoint.
Any who have even been saved was same way bu the will of God, by the Cross of Christ and His resurrection, but we today live under the better provisions granted to us of the mew Covenant with God.
You are absolutely correct.
Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
No, their is only one salvation, no one comes to the Father except through Jesus. Under the Old Covenant the saints, those who gained approval through faith, were taken to "Abraham's bosom." They (Old Testament Saints) had to wait to be made perfect, that is they had to wait until Jesus sacrificed Himself as the Lamb of God. Thus those chosen for salvation under the New Covenant were chosen based on faith in the truth, which of course is faith in Christ Jesus.
Tell me before Christ was anyone actually saved? Since all men are sinners how could they be saved and not be forgiven of there sins. The writter of Hebrews said;
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Actually there is no Salvation offered.
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And I have addressed Ephesians 1:4, and how that election could not have been individual due to 1 Peter 2:9-10. A chosen but said not to be chosen rebuttal is absurd. There is only one view which fits all of scripture, and it is conditional election of individuals during their lifetime. Since you are committed to your view, I am not sure what else I could say. The old you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make his drink.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it would suggest a limit to God's knowledge.
No need to continue, Sir. You did not address how we could live not as a people chosen for His possession, if we had been individually chosen. Saying taint so is a waste of time.
How many times have I shown the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate? No rebuttal for being chosen through faith in the truth, or chosen as poor to the world, rich in faith , etc.
My view is totally consistent with all scripture, including Romans 8.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Yeah I read the post.
What does that have to do with anything? He is talking about all of the elect having been chosen. Is that a corporate statement? Yes, but the elect are made up of individuals.
I've given a rebuttal, you totally shift the clauses in that verse to say something it does not say. Our election is not dependent upon faith as the initiator. Faith is the result of our election.
Acts 10:43 and Hebrews 4:2 says it all. Abraham was justified by faith in the gospel (Gal. 3:6-8; Rom. 4) EXACTLY as we are. They were born again EXACTLY as we are (Ezek. 46:7-9; Jn. 3:3-11). They were permentantly indwelt by the Spirit EXACTLY as we are. They were progressively sanctified EXACTLY as we are and they went to heaven at death as EXACTLY as we will. The same gospel has been preached since Genesis 3:15 and the only change is progressive revelation of more details until Christ came.
To claim that no APPLICATION of salvation could occur prior to the cross is reputed by all the above facts. Jesus simply secured the LEGAL basis for redemption but God applied redemtpion on the basis of divine promise before the cross(Rom. 4:24-26). The only thing the OT saints waited for and would not receive without us is their glorified bodies and entrance into that promised city ON EARTH - a new earth - Heb. 11:39-40.
Both the "old" and "new" covenants are EARTHLY ADMINISTRATIVE covenants of the same "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20).
Here is the real key to understand the three covenant (old, new, everlasting). The problem begins with Adam and for all who are in Adam. Pre-old covenant people had the same problem. Old Covenant people had the same problem. New Covenant people have the same problem. There are not three different problems needing three diffferent covenants and three different solutions (salvations) but the very same problem.
The problem is sin and death. The pre-old covenant (Gen-Ex 19) did not have a different sin and death problem. The old covenant (Ex. 20-Mt. 27) did not have a different sin and death problem. The New covenant (Mt. 27-2019) do not have a different sin and death problem.
There are not various solutions for the sin and death problem. The pre-old covenant period did not offer a different solution for sin and death. The old covenant did not offer a different solution for sin and death. The new covenant does not offer a different solution for sin and death.
There are not a variety of Saviors, a variety of ways of salvation! There have never been but two options - (1) In adam or in Christ; (2) In God's kingdom or in Satan's kingdom; (3) lost or saved; (4) born of the flesh or born of the Spirit; (5) in the flesh or in the Spirit; (6) In God's family or in Satan's family; (7) heaven or hell.
The pre-old covenant period and old covenant period did not preach another gospel (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2). The new covenant period does not preach another gospel than prior to the cross except progressive revelation is fulfilled revelation.
The "old" covenant emphasized the holiness of God and used primarily types that manifested the hope of the gospel which types were done away with (thus the old covenant done away with) by the fulfillment of those types.
The "new" covenant is not a new way of salvation but a new publich earthly administration that replaced the Jewish old covenant earthly administration. Both (1) declared the same gospel; (2) both had earthly houses of God; (3) both had divine ordinances; (4) both had an ordained ministry; (5) both had a commission. The new is "better" because it rests upon the FINISHED work of Christ rather than the PREDICTED work of Christ.
The sin and death problem is first and foremost an INTERNAL problem with all who are "in Adam." All in Adam are dead in sins - SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED FROM GOD thus separated from the LIFE of God, the LOVE of God, the HOLINESS of God and the LIGHT of God.
Let those four things sink in? Separation from God's LOVE, LIGHT, LIFE and HOLINESS.
1. LOVE = If you are separated from the love of God then the carnal mind is at ENMITY with God and LOVES darkness more than light and will not come to the light.
2. LIGHT = The sinners loves DARKNESS and cannot UNDERSTAND the things of God
3. HOLINESS = Is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be. There is none good, no, not one.
4. LIFE = dead in tresspasses and sins - "alienated from the life of God"
This is not the problem that just started after the cross, but this was the problem that characterized Adam "in the day" he sinned. This is what characterizes every child of Adam from Genesis 4 to 2019. This means that every single human "in Adam" has this four-fold problem and cannot serve God until this four-fold problem is resolved within them.
This fourfold INTERNAL problem - sinful condition (depravity, death, darkness, enmity) can only be resolved by a supernatural creative act by God that reverses spiritual separation from God to spiritual union with God as it is separation from God that cause separation from God's life, love, light, and holiness. That supernatural work is called SPIRITUAL UNION or new birth. Apart from spiritual union there is no other alternative human condition but darkness, death, depravity and enmity.
Salvation designed by God remedies this four fold problem without which, fallen man LOVES darkness more than light and WILL NOT come to the light, is at ENMITY with God and is not subject to the law of God; and is not GOOD nor can do GOOD in God's sight, and cannot UNDERSTAND the things of God
The "old" and "new" covenants are EARTHLY DECLARATIVE ADMINISTRATIONS of the "everlasting covenant." Both have EARTHLY house of God institutions where the public administration of specified divine ordinances occur. Both have an ORDAINED ministry. Both have symbolic ordinances. Both DECLARE the same gospel but in different manners. Both have a public day of worship.
The period of "old" covenant administration is between Moses and Christ. The period of "new" covenant administration is between Christ first and second coming.
Prior to Moses neither the "new" or "old" covenant administrations existed on earth.
The "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20; Eph. 1:4-14; Rom. 8:28-31) is the only covenant that is not a declarative administration but is excecutive administration whereby salvation is directly effectually applied to the elect from Genesis to Revelation. The "old" and "new" both declare this "eternal covenant" but neither can administer it. The only Ones who can ADMINISTER the "everlasting covenant" under both "pre-old" "old" and "new" covenant periods is God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. These three alone administer the "everlasting covenant." All earthly covenants merely DECLARE this salvation but cannot administer it.
The "new" covenant administration is the clearest declaration of the "everlasting covenant" as the "old" concealed much of its truth in types, ceremonies and metaphors.
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