A False Teaching on Christ’s Satisfaction Exposed

[SovereignGrace]

All of history centers on the cross. We look back to the cross. Before the cross they looked in faith to the cross.

Correct concerning the cross monsieur. However, many died outside the covenant of the Old Law. The Philistines, the Hivites, the Hittites, the Jebusites, the Edomites, the Ammonites, the Kohathites, none of them had their sins atoned for when Aaron, and the other high priests did their priestly duties of entering into the 'holiest of holies' for the once a year sacrifice. Many have died never knowing Christ existed. So that should show you that Christ did not die for all mankind.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
--They didn't receive the promise of the coming of the Messiah or see him.
But they saw him by faith. The message is the same. They were saved by faith through the revelation that they were given.

But these were waiting for that Blessed Hope to come, Jesus Christ. The Philistines, all they wanted to do was destroy Israel. They were too worried about worshipping Dagon.

This is the Great High Priestly Prayer of Christ. Look carefully at the context of the prayer. He is praying specifically for his disciples. "I pray for them (his disciples), not for the world, but those you have given me."
--This prayer is specific to his disciples.

How did I know you would say this? Erroné, monsieur, erroné. That coq will not cocorico, mon ami. Go and read a little further down and you can see Jesus' plea “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”[Jn 17:26]

John 10:27-30 he tells who his sheep are.

Yes. But Jesus also said It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. ’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.[Jn 6:45] The sheep WILL hear and WILL follow. They were His We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.[Isa. 53:6] People do not hear and then become sheep, monsieur. They hear because they ARE His sheep. One does not mutate from a goat to a sheep, mon ami.

He also proclaims his divinity in vs.30. They don't believe him. They pick up rocks to stone him. Why?

Because they are not His sheep. That is why they want to stone Him, monsieur.

Because he was proclaiming to be God though he was a man was the answer. This was a statement of unbelief by the Pharisees at that time. No, the Pharisees did not believe. They chose not to.

People naturally choose not to believe in their fallen state. Unless God quickens them, they will deny Him all the way to the grave. Why is that so hard for you to grasp, mon ami?

 

[SovereignGrace]

No man has kept the law--no man.
If your salvation is dependent upon keeping the law then even with Christ's help you still will not make it.

What savedbymercy is stating(as much as I loathe the thoughts of agreeing with him, but he is correct in what he posted) is that what Christ did was live their life for them, living a sinless life for His sheep. That is what he was stating, monsieur.

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK,

You posted this in post #71:

He does not have "two kinds of love." He is divine.

You are correct here, mon ami. Now, I will address this and show you where you are errone'.


First of all, God's love is centered upon His Son, the One who was sent to die for sinful mankind. Jesus was I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was constantly at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.[Pro. 8:27-31]

It was this Man, God the Son, who came in the form of a Servant, in the likeness of sinful flesh, to die a covenantal death, not for all mankind but for And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day,[Jn 6:39] and also I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours,[Jn 17:9] and also “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world,"[Jn 17:24] it was these that Christ tasted death for. We can read For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.[Eph. 1:4-11]

All the love that God has for His Son is poured out to those who He gave to Christ to die for. The only reason we are loved by God is because He no longer sees us as we are but as Christ is. We are For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.[Col. 3:3] And also I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.[Gal. 2:20] It is by Christ ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ [Acts 17:28]

This is why we are loved by God, because He first loved us and sent His Son to die for us. His death was a covenantal death between the Shepherd and His sheep.[Jn 10:11]

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK,

If God truly loves everybody as you continually state then explain Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson?
Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? “It is I, proclaiming victory, mighty to save.” Why are your garments red, like those of one treading the winepress? “I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath;their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. It was for me the day of vengeance; the year for me to redeem had come. I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm achieved salvation for me, and my own wrath sustained me. I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground.”[Isa 63:1-6] Then there is The arrogant cannot stand your presence. You hate all who do wrong;[Psa. 5:5] Then there is Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[Rom. 9:13]

God hates sinners and also their sins.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

If God truly loves everybody as you continually state then explain Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson?
Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? “It is I, proclaiming victory, mighty to save.” Why are your garments red, like those of one treading the winepress? “I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath;their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. It was for me the day of vengeance; the year for me to redeem had come. I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm achieved salvation for me, and my own wrath sustained me. I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground.”[Isa 63:1-6] Then there is The arrogant cannot stand your presence. You hate all who do wrong;[Psa. 5:5] Then there is Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[Rom. 9:13]

God hates sinners and also their sins.

To use poetical literature like the Psalms to make up your doctrine is really pitiful, especially if you use the impecratory psalms.

For example, read carefully this psalm (109)
Psa 109:4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
Psa 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
Psa 109:8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
Psa 109:9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
Psa 109:10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
Psa 109:11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
Psa 109:12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
Psa 109:13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
Psa 109:14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
Psa 109:15 Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
Psa 109:16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
Psa 109:17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.
Psa 109:18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.
Psa 109:19 Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.

Now, as a NT believer, filled with the Holy Spirit, would you pray that prayer for another today?
This was a Psalm of David, a man after God's own heart. Why would he pray like this, and should it be a basis of our doctrine? The only thing we can take from this is that, God is using David to express his judgment in a poetical way against God's enemies. It does not teach that God hates people but rather their doings, although in the OT the two are hard to separate from each other.

Thus I note that every reference (even the NT one) is a reference to the OT.
They express the judgment of God, mostly in metaphorical terminology.

The one reference to Jacob and Esau, also OT, is a reference more to the omniscience of God than anything. Note that God knew and had chosen Jacob while they were yet in the womb of their mother. Why? He knew what kind of man Esau would be--a profane man, not having any desire for spiritual things--not qualified for the birthright and his blessing. His descendants were the nation of Edom, a constant thorn in the side of Israel. "Hatred" is not absolute, but seen as relative in his rejection of one who is not qualified to inherit the spiritual blessings. Rebekkeh was told from the beginning that "the younger shall serve the elder." This was a part of God's sovereign plan. Nowhere does it say that God did not "love" Esau. He did. You are distorting the meaning of the word "hate."

 

[Protestant]

Sink or Swim

In a previous post I exposed 6 fallacies inherent in Dave Hunt’s ‘Calvinist God refuses to save’ analogy which prove he hasn’t a clue as to the true meaning of the doctrines of grace held by Calvinists.

I will now present a similar analogy using the Pelagian/Arminian God as my model.

All mankind is in a dire spiritual state. Surrounded by the uncontrollable tidal waves of sin which are about to drown them, God sends His Son Jesus, the Divine Life Guard who has come to save their souls.

The Son takes His position on the shore ever ready, willing and able to throw a lifeline to those who ask.

However, many to whom He throws a lifeline are unable to reach it.

The lifeline falls short of reaching them.

“Swim!” the Divine Life Guard shouts. “You can do it!”

But alas, many drown, unable to reach the lifeline.

, the Son questions the Father’s judgment.

“Father, you assured me all men have the ability to swim.”

“That is correct, Son. It is an innate ability with which I have gifted all men.”

“Then why, Father, do some reach the lifeline while others do not?”

“The explanation is simple, Son. Not all choose to use the ability I gave them.”

“But Father, do you not wish to save all men?”

“Of course, my Son. But I will not force them to swim, if they so choose not to.”

“But, Father, had you not considered another solution……?” –“I could swim out to rescue them in person, thereby saving them all.”

“No, Son, salvation doesn’t work that way. Once you do your part, man must do his part. You throw the lifeline, man must grab it. To personally swim to those who are too far out to be saved by the lifeline would be tantamount to showing favoritism, and we can’t be accused of that.”
------------------------------------------------------------
We, on the other hand, understand men do not have the innate ability to swim or believe in Christ.

Our Savior does more than simply make an offer of salvation. He actually does something about it.

He sends His Spirit who then awakens the Elect (chosen by the Father) to the truth of who they are, what they do and where they are headed.

It is they who cry for divine help and are rescued.

All others remain hard of heart, refusing to believe they are in danger, willfully rejecting salvation in Christ.

Many have their own lifeline in which they trust.

It is they who would rather kill Christ than embrace Him as Lord.

It is they who will receive their just reward.

P.S. Before the Elect could be rescued, the Divine Life Guard had to prove Himself by swimming in the shark infested waters unscathed. By so doing He qualified to pay their sin debt in full. Payment was made by His voluntary, substitutionary death on their behalf. He allowed wicked men to capture and drown Him, thereby taking the judgment due the Elect upon Himself.

Christ has resurrected and is now at the right hand of the Father, faithfully and successfully rescuing all the Father had given Him.

But why not sovereignly save all, you ask?

Do not all men deserve to be rescued/saved?

Salvation is owed no one.

It flows from grace, which is God's alone to bestow or withhold.

Besides, left to themselves, no man seeks the true God. (Romans 3:11)

It is Christ who does the seeking. (Luke 19:10)

And He seeks and saves all that the Father has given Him.

He loses none. (John 17:12)

 

[DHK]

In a previous post I exposed 6 fallacies inherent in Dave Hunt’s ‘Calvinist God refuses to save’ analogy which prove he hasn’t a clue as to the true meaning of the doctrines of grace held by Calvinists.

I will now present a similar analogy using the Pelagian/Arminian God as my model.

You can stop the name-calling any time now.
Calvin didn't arrive on the scene until 1500 years after Christ. You follow this man's theology. I don't. Neither am I a follower of Pellagius or Arminius.
If you want to call me a "Biblicist" I will be fine with that. But I do not follow man's teaching especially the above mentioned who hold so much biblical error. Is that clear? I am not a Calvinist; however I may be a non-Cal, if you need to call me anything. But calling names really isn't necessary.

Furthermore, your analogy will therefore be wrong, because you already have a wrong premise: all three men mentioned above hold to biblical error, if not heresy.

All mankind is in a dire spiritual state. Surrounded by the uncontrollable tidal waves of sin which are about to drown them, God sends His Son Jesus, the Divine Life Guard who has come to save their souls.

The Son takes His position on the shore ever ready, willing and able to throw a lifeline to those who ask.

However, many to whom He throws a lifeline are unable to reach it.

The lifeline falls short of reaching them.

“Swim!” the Divine Life Guard shouts. “You can do it!”

But alas, many drown, unable to reach the lifeline.

, the Son questions the Father’s judgment.

“Father, you assured me all men have the ability to swim.”

“That is correct, Son. It is an innate ability with which I have gifted all men.”

“Then why, Father, do some reach the lifeline while others do not?”

“The explanation is simple, Son. Not all choose to use the ability I gave them.”

“But Father, do you not wish to save all men?”

“Of course, my Son. But I will not force them to swim, if they so choose not to.”

“But, Father, had you not considered another solution……?” –“I could swim out to rescue them in person, thereby saving them all.”

“No, Son, salvation doesn’t work that way. Once you do your part, man must do his part. You throw the lifeline, man must grab it. To personally swim to those who are too far out to be saved by the lifeline would be tantamount to showing favoritism, and we can’t be accused of that.”

It is a ridiculous illustration that falls short of God's grace and mercy.

Here is the way that the illustration should go:
A man swims out into deep water too far for him to swim back. He begins to sink and knows that if he doesn't get help he will drown. He begins to cry loudly: "HELP!" HELP!"

A man on the shore sees him and yells out: "Swim to the shore and you will be saved!"
Good advice! But that is exactly what he cannot do.
He needs someone greater and stronger than himself to reach down and pull him out of the sea that he is sinking in and bring him to dry land. That is the only way he can be saved.

Likewise, in this sea of sinful humanity, sinful man is drowning. He needs someone greater and stronger than himself to pull him out of his sin and place him on the dry ground of eternal life. He needs a Savior. The only way he can be saved is if he reaches in faith and clutches the hand of the One who is reaching down to save him, but there must be faith.
There are many who refuse that offer of salvation; God's hand reaching down to pull them out of the miry clay and abyss of sin. He will set them on dry land and give them forgiveness of sins, but they refuse. However the offer is always there. He continually pleads for them.

Come unto me all ye that are heavy laden and I will give you rest.
Come and let us reason together saith the Lord; though your sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow.

We, on the other hand, understand men do not have the innate ability to swim or believe in Christ.

And that is your error. Even little children have faith--Jesus taught.
You deny what Jesus taught. Most of those he healed had innate faith.
"Go thy way thy faith has made thee whole."
There is not one verse in the Bible that teaches regeneration produces faith.
But there are many verses in the Bible that say faith is required for salvation (sola fide). Regeneration and salvation happen at the same time.

Our Savior does more than simply make an offer of salvation. He actually does something about it.

Yes he provides it; it must be accepted by faith.

He sends His Spirit who then awakens the Elect (chosen by the Father) to the truth of who they are, what they do and where they are headed.

That is mysticism. When did you reach your "nirvana." Not much different.

It is they who cry for divine help and are rescued.

Yes, salvation is by faith.

All others remain hard of heart, refusing to believe they are in danger, willfully rejecting salvation in Christ.

Many have their own lifeline in which they trust.

It is they who would rather kill Christ than embrace Him as Lord.

It is they who will receive their just reward.

I have never taught anything different.

P.S. Before the Elect could be rescued, the Divine Life Guard had to prove Himself by swimming in the shark infested waters unscathed. By so doing He qualified to pay their sin debt in full. Payment was made by His voluntary, substitutionary death on their behalf. He allowed wicked men to capture and drown Him, thereby taking the judgment due the Elect upon Himself.
1John 2:2 specifically says that propitiation was made for the sins of the whole word. You are in error here.

Christ has resurrected and is now at the right hand of the Father, faithfully and successfully rescuing all the Father had given Him.

But why not sovereignly save all, you ask?

Do not all men deserve to be rescued/saved?

Salvation is owed no one.

It flows from grace, which is God's alone to bestow or withhold.

Besides, left to themselves, no man seeks the true God. (Romans 3:11)

It is Christ who does the seeking. (Luke 19:10)

And He seeks and saves all that the Father has given Him.

He loses none. (John 17:12)

He seeks those who, through his omniscience, knows who will believe on him. He doesn't deny anyone. The gospel must go out to all. All must have a chance to choose or reject. God is not a racist, or prejudiced. All must give an account for their actions.
"We must all give account of ourselves before God."
Salvation is by faith; not by election. You have it wrong.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sinners are not screaming for help to keep from drowning. They are floating on top of it face down, monsieur.

 

[DHK]

Sinners are not screaming for help to keep from drowning. They are floating on top of it face down, monsieur.

From a flawed theology you might think that. But if you are in the ministry your theology would be proven wrong.
I was having a conversation once with a Charismatic (it was going nowhere), who believed tongues was everything, and simply my being in the ministry for x number of years didn't mean two hoots compared to her experience. I presented scripture; she got emotional. Eventually she had to leave.

This was at a mall near a Starbucks where I was having coffee. At a table on the other side of me sat a college student. She was a Muslim from Lebanon. She apologized to me for the behavior of the woman, and the way she treated me. I was amazed. Why did this foreigner need to apologize to me? After introducing myself, I asked where she was from and what religion she practiced. She said she was a Muslim, but not a practicing Muslim. She was disillusioned with Islam because of all the violence it was creating. It couldn't be the religion of peace they claimed it was. She was searching for the "true way." She knew she was lost, but what was the truth? What was the way?
Then I had the opportunity to present to her the gospel, and leave her with a tract.

There are many Muslims coming to Christ because of the same reason. They have the moral law of God in their hearts (Rom.2:14,15). They cannot keep it. It is their schoolmaster to lead them to Christ. In the end they will have no excuse. Read Rom.1:20.

God does not give commands to men that they cannot keep.
Paul, speaking to a large crowd of Athenian idolaters, declared:

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
--Now God commands you to repent. That is what they had to do.

The Lord has also commanded:
Isa_55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Does the Lord command that which man cannot do?
Seek him? Call upon him?

No. Man has the ability to: repent, seek the Lord, call upon him.
In fact, God commands him to do so.

 

[SovereignGrace]

From a flawed theology you might think that. But if you are in the ministry your theology would be proven wrong.

I am in the ministry, monsieur, but I do not go around telling everyone boasting about it.

This was at a mall near a Starbucks where I was having coffee. At a table on the other side of me sat a college student. She was a Muslim from Lebanon. She apologized to me for the behavior of the woman, and the way she treated me. I was amazed. Why did this foreigner need to apologize to me? After introducing myself, I asked where she was from and what religion she practiced. She said she was a Muslim, but not a practicing Muslim. She was disillusioned with Islam because of all the violence it was creating. It couldn't be the religion of peace they claimed it was. She was searching for the "true way." She knew she was lost, but what was the truth? What was the way?
Then I had the opportunity to present to her the gospel, and leave her with a tract.

God works in the unseen realm, that realm we can never approach or see. This was showing God working on her and sending you, and maybe others to preach the gospel to her. Rest assured that if she is His sheep, she will be added into the fold.

There are many Muslims coming to Christ because of the same reason. They have the moral law of God in their hearts (Rom.2:14,15). They cannot keep it. It is their schoolmaster to lead them to Christ. In the end they will have no excuse. Read Rom.1:20.

They are coming to Christ because they are His sheep, mon ami.

God does not give commands to men that they cannot keep.

Wanna bet? Not literally, but wanna bet? God gave the Jews the Law to keep, knowing they could not keep it, yet killed many for breaking it. Then there is I am the Lord your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves along the ground. I am the Lord, who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.[Lev. 11:44,45] Then there is "for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”[1 Pet. 1:16]

God has made many statements in Leviticus about being holy, yet knowing we can not be holy.

Paul, speaking to a large crowd of Athenian idolaters, declared:

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
--Now God commands you to repent. That is what they had to do.

See comment above.

The Lord has also commanded:
Isa_55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Does the Lord command that which man cannot do?
Seek him? Call upon him?

No. Man has the ability to: repent, seek the Lord, call upon him.
In fact, God commands him to do so.

Nekros, mon ami, nekros.

 

[DHK]

I am in the ministry, monsieur, but I do not go around telling everyone boasting about it.

It is a matter of where the rubber meets the road.
If the theology has no practical outworking then it can't be right.

God works in the unseen realm, that realm we can never approach or see. This was showing God working on her and sending you, and maybe others to preach the gospel to her. Rest assured that if she is His sheep, she will be added into the fold.

God sends every believer into the mission field in one way or another. The Great Commission has never been rescinded. Those who are not missionaries are mission fields. No one will "become one of his sheep" simply because it is ordained of God." I believe that there many will perish because they were not told, and they were not told by Christians who neglected to do their duty or fulfill their calling. Their blood (the blood of the unsaved) will be upon disobedient Christians.
Calvinism teaches otherwise--a kind of fatalism: "whatever will be will be"
Que sera sera.

They are coming to Christ because they are His sheep, mon ami.

Que sera sera?
No. They will come to Christ IF they believe.
What happened to sola fide?

Wanna bet? Not literally, but wanna bet? God gave the Jews the Law to keep, knowing they could not keep it, yet killed many for breaking it.

And yet, in the form of the Ten Commandments, we are expected to keep it today. Ironic isn't it. Just because no man can keep it perfectly doesn't mean that God doesn't expect our obedience.

Then there is I am the Lord your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy.

Do you strive for holiness in your life. Holiness is simply being set apart.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
--It is impossible to see God without holiness. Being holy is imperative.

Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves along the ground. I am the Lord, who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

[Lev. 11:44,45] Then there is "for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”[1 Pet. 1:16]

God has made many statements in Leviticus about being holy, yet knowing we can not be holy.

See above.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
We are commanded to be holy, not perfect. Sanctified, not sinless.

Nekros, mon ami, nekros.

That a person is "dead" simply means they are separated. They need reconciliation in order to have life.
Adam died the day that he ate of that fruit, and yet God talked to him and he to God. How is it possible that a dead Adam (spiritually) could talk audibly with the living God? The Calvinist says "dead" is a corpse, but obviously Adam was not.

 

[Protestant]

Neither am I a follower of Pellagius or Arminius.
If you want to call me a "Biblicist" I will be fine with that. But I do not follow man's teaching especially the above mentioned who hold so much biblical error. Is that clear?

No, it is not clear.

Why would anyone call you ‘Biblicist’ when the man on this board who is already called ‘Biblicist’ opposes your doctrines at every turn?

I would be curious as to what, exactly, you find erroneous in Pelagius’ doctrines.

You hold to his basic fundamental beliefs:

Pelagius taught that man has an unimpaired moral ability to choose that which is spiritually good and possesses the free will, ability, and capacity to do that which is spiritually good.

You teach that man has the innate spiritual capacity to do that which is spiritually good: believe on Christ with a faith that justifies.

My source on Pelagianism is Theopedia.com, an unbiased site with no axe to grind, dedicated to educating the public in matters of religion. http://www.theopedia.com/Pelagianism

Furthermore, you also hold to several essential Arminian articles of faith:

Conditional election
This point holds that man is the final arbiter of his election, and that God elects him on the basis of foreseen faith which is exercised by libertarian free will, thus making man ultimately decisive.

Unlimited (or universal) atonement
Christ's death was suffered on behalf of all men and benefits all men alike. God then elects for salvation those whom he foresees will believe in Christ of their own free will.

Resistible grace
This point holds that God never overcomes the resistance of man to His saving grace. While both Calvinists and Arminians hold that men often resist God's grace, Arminianism teaches that this resistance is rarely conquered by God because this would be a violation of man's libertarian free will.

The universal call of salvation
Arminians hold that God calls all people to Himself through Christ, whether or not this call is effectual depends upon the individuals libertarian free will. http://www.theopedia.com/arminianism

Again, which of these classic Arminian tenets do you repudiate?

 

[DHK]

No, it is not clear.

Why would anyone call you ‘Biblicist’ when the man on this board who is already called ‘Biblicist’ opposes your doctrines at every turn?

A "biblicist" is one who believes and follows the Bible.
He may agree with me more than disagree. You might be surprised.

I would be curious as to what, exactly, you find erroneous in Pelagius’ doctrines.

You hold to his basic fundamental beliefs:

You teach that man has the innate spiritual capacity to do that which is spiritually good: believe on Christ with a faith that justifies.

Did I ever say exactly what you just said. No.
You misrepresent my beliefs.
Man does not have it in himself to do spiritual good. As Isa.64:6 states "all his righteousnesses are as filthy rags." There is nothing man can do to merit eternal life. I have always said this from the beginning.
I believe in the Depravity of Man. It is you that does not.
The Calvinists here don't believe in the Depravity of Man, rather The Total Inability of Man, which is an extreme position and one that I abhor.

My source on Pelagianism is Theopedia.com, an unbiased site with no axe to grind, dedicated to educating the public in matters of religion. http://www.theopedia.com/Pelagianism

Furthermore, you also hold to several essential Arminian articles of faith:

Again, which of these classic Arminian tenets do you repudiate?

Conditional election
This point holds that man is the final arbiter of his election, and that God elects him on the basis of foreseen faith which is exercised by libertarian free will, thus making man ultimately decisive.
The conclusion is wrong. God always initiates salvation. Man must respond by faith. That God knows about what decision he is about to make is really inconsequential. We are more concerned with God's dealings with mankind in the here and now, rather than what God's decrees were in eternity past. I wasn't there; neither were you.

Unlimited (or universal) atonement
Christ's death was suffered on behalf of all men and benefits all men alike. God then elects for salvation those whom he foresees will believe in Christ of their own free will.
Christ died and suffered for all men. True. The saved are those who believe on him. His atonement is efficacious only to those that believe. Again, we are more concerned with the here and now, not with eternity past.

In regards to limited atonement, Peter, in 2Pet.2:1 calls this particular doctrine a "damnable heresy" as it is translated in the KJV.
Lest you think I am "unorthodox" in my interpretation, let me quote to you the brief note from the KJV Study Bible:

2Pet.2:1-3. The opposite of true revelation is the message of false prophets and false teachers who deceive God's flock and bring in damnable heresies. These heresies (unorthodox teachings) include an open denial of Christ Himself. Denying the Lord that bought them indicates that Christ's atonement potentially extends to all men, including these false teachers who reject Him. Therefore, they will experience destruction because they themselves will be deceived by their own teaching and continue to reject the way of truth. (The King James Study Bible)

Resistible grace
This point holds that God never overcomes the resistance of man to His saving grace. While both Calvinists and Arminians hold that men often resist God's grace, Arminianism teaches that this resistance is rarely conquered by God because this would be a violation of man's libertarian free will.
I am not sure what Arminians believe.
I know what the Bible teaches.

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
--It was evident to Stephen (and the Holy Spirit) that the Israelites (as well as their ancestors) were able to resist the Holy Spirit, and had been doing so for many years. This truth is contradicted by Calvinists.

The universal call of salvation
Arminians hold that God calls all people to Himself through Christ, whether or not this call is effectual depends upon the individuals libertarian free will. http://www.theopedia.com/arminianism
First, Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."
I hope you believe that. There is no other way of salvation but through Christ. This way is the only way no matter who you are or where you are in the world. The Great Commission was to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Is that not true?
Do not believers have the responsibility of carrying out this commission, and contrariwise do not unbelievers have the responsibility of responding to it?
The obvious answer is yes, both do.
We shall all give account of ourselves before God. Or don't you believe that man will give account of himself before God?

 

[SovereignGrace]

It is a matter of where the rubber meets the road.
If the theology has no practical outworking then it can't be right.

Huh? Whaa? Expound please. I am sure what you are espousing here. My theology works swimmingly.

God sends every believer into the mission field in one way or another.

Yes.

The Great Commission has never been rescinded.

Why must you perpetually state this? You act as if I do not believe it is still a command, monsieur. For your information, I believe in gospel regeneration, and also no gospel = no salvation.(cf. Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:18-21, 1 Cor. 15:10,11, Eph. 1:13).

Those who are not missionaries are mission fields.

Expound please. I think I know what you are saying but not exactly sure, either.

No one will "become one of his sheep" simply because it is ordained of God."

Yes they are. They were chosen before/from the creation of the world. Sheep do not mutate from goats and vice versa.

I believe that there many will perish because they were not told,

Yes.

and they were not told by Christians who neglected to do their duty or fulfill their calling. Their blood (the blood of the unsaved) will be upon disobedient Christians.

Huh? Whaa? Seriously? People died before missionaires got to them. People can only cover so many territories. Just like John Eliot in the mid-1600's witnessed to the indians and even translated a bible in their language. Those that died before hearing the gospel, so by your reasoning, Mr. Eliot will suffer the consequences of those who died one day before he got there. Travel back then was horribly slow, with it taking close to 2 months to get from Britain to the USA.

Calvinism teaches otherwise--a kind of fatalism: "whatever will be will be"
Que sera sera.

Read up on William Carey, monsieur.

Que sera sera?
No. They will come to Christ IF they believe.
What happened to sola fide?

Those who hear and learn come. That is what Jesus said in John 6:45. He said “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”[Jn 10:14-18]

And yet, in the form of the Ten Commandments, we are expected to keep it today. Ironic isn't it. Just because no man can keep it perfectly doesn't mean that God doesn't expect our obedience.

No irony at all. I have no idea why you would make that remark.

Do you strive for holiness in your life. Holiness is simply being set apart.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
--It is impossible to see God without holiness. Being holy is imperative.

Yes.

See above.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
We are commanded to be holy, not perfect. Sanctified, not sinless.

Yes.

That a person is "dead" simply means they are separated. They need reconciliation in order to have life.

They are nekros...dead to God and righteousness. Spiritual life is only found in Christ. Adam sinned and caused us to die, too. He, and consequently us, died being seperated from the only Life Source, God. We had no life(Christ) in us, being separated from Him.

Adam died the day that he ate of that fruit, and yet God talked to him and he to God. How is it possible that a dead Adam (spiritually) could talk audibly with the living God? The Calvinist says "dead" is a corpse, but obviously Adam was not.

God spoke to Satan, too. I guess God desires to save him, too? That is a rhetorical question and not meant to be snarky. God, just because He spoke to someone does not mean He loves them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

To use poetical literature like the Psalms to make up your doctrine is really pitiful, especially if you use the impecratory psalms.

'Pitiful'? Really? My eyes are up 'here' monsieur. Try to swing at my head and not below the waist.

For example, read carefully this psalm (109)
Psa 109:4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
Psa 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
Psa 109:8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
Psa 109:9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
Psa 109:10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
Psa 109:11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
Psa 109:12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
Psa 109:13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
Psa 109:14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
Psa 109:15 Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
Psa 109:16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
Psa 109:17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.
Psa 109:18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.
Psa 109:19 Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.

David prophesying as you noted about God's judgment.

Now, as a NT believer, filled with the Holy Spirit, would you pray that prayer for another today?
This was a Psalm of David, a man after God's own heart. Why would he pray like this, and should it be a basis of our doctrine? The only thing we can take from this is that, God is using David to express his judgment in a poetical way against God's enemies. It does not teach that God hates people but rather their doings, although in the OT the two are hard to separate from each other.

This ideology is foreign to the bible monsieur. God hates all who do wrong and not just their 'wrongdoings.'

Thus I note that every reference (even the NT one) is a reference to the OT.
They express the judgment of God, mostly in metaphorical terminology.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people.[Rom. 1:18a] And then there is But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.[Rom. 2:5] And then there is But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.[Rom. 2:8]

The one reference to Jacob and Esau, also OT, is a reference more to the omniscience of God than anything. Note that God knew and had chosen Jacob while they were yet in the womb of their mother. Why? He knew what kind of man Esau would be--a profane man, not having any desire for spiritual things--not qualified for the birthright and his blessing. His descendants were the nation of Edom, a constant thorn in the side of Israel. "Hatred" is not absolute, but seen as relative in his rejection of one who is not qualified to inherit the spiritual blessings. Rebekkeh was told from the beginning that "the younger shall serve the elder." This was a part of God's sovereign plan. Nowhere does it say that God did not "love" Esau. He did. You are distorting the meaning of the word "hate."

God does not elect/choose/predestine in the manner which you perpetually post He does. You have God's omniscience hinging upon man's movements. God will elect them 'if they will do this' or God will not elect them 'if they will not do this.' That is not the way the bible portrays God, mon ami.

 

[DHK]

Huh? Whaa? Expound please. I am sure what you are espousing here. My theology works swimmingly.

I can respect your position. But there are some Calvinists who have taken Calvinism to what I believe is its logical conclusion. IOW, if all are ordained from the beginning to either eternal life or eternal destruction, then there is nothing left to do. Why the Great Commission. Sit back, get out of the way, and let God do his work. There are some on this board who do not believe that the Great Commission is for today, and that the whole world was evangelized in the first century. (some Preterists).

Why must you perpetually state this? You act as if I do not believe it is still a command, monsieur. For your information, I believe in gospel regeneration, and also no gospel = no salvation.(cf. Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:18-21, 1 Cor. 15:10,11, Eph. 1:13).

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
The Great Commission is motivated by love.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died;

2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
--There was also an urgency in Paul to get the gospel out.
But nowhere was he ever motivated by "predestination" or "election."

It was is if they were about to fall off the edge of a cliff into an endless eternity perishing without Christ, and Paul was the only one that had the answer to save them--a message of faith and hope in Christ.

Expound please. I think I know what you are saying but not exactly sure, either.

Those who are truly saved will be known by their fruit. One of the most important fruits of a believer is their desire to tell others of Christ, or at least of their own salvation. I sometimes question the salvation of those who have no testimony, nothing to share, nothing to tell others. Are they really saved?

Yes they are. They were chosen before/from the creation of the world. Sheep do not mutate from goats and vice versa.

The sheep vs goats comparison is over-done, if not unbiblical.
Sheep are sheep.
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have each one to his way, and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa.53:6)
The Lord went searching for the "lost sheep."
Salvation does not begin "before the foundation of the world." It does not begin in the mother's womb. It begins when one hears the gospel and afterward puts his faith in Christ.

Huh? Whaa? Seriously? People died before missionaires got to them. People can only cover so many territories. Just like John Eliot in the mid-1600's witnessed to the indians and even translated a bible in their language. Those that died before hearing the gospel, so by your reasoning, Mr. Eliot will suffer the consequences of those who died one day before he got there. Travel back then was horribly slow, with it taking close to 2 months to get from Britain to the USA.

I haven't searched out the history. But there is a reason why certain nations have the gospel and others do not. The apostle Thomas went to India. The seed was planted there. Thomas died as a martyr. Much of India rejected the gospel, until years later when the Lord sent someone else. But all those intervening years--the gospel had never been completely lost.

Read up on William Carey, monsieur.

I have. His biography comes to mind many times.

Those who hear and learn come. That is what Jesus said in John 6:45. He said “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”[Jn 10:14-18]

Most of what Jesus referred to in the gospels were his relationships to the Jews. In John 17 he prayed for his disciples--Jewish believers. He both debated with and reproved unsaved Jews called Pharisees and Sadducee.
The sheep referred to above are his disciples, and "I have other sheep" refer to the gospel will go to the "Gentiles."
Thus this is a passage showing that Christ will die for the sins of the world rather than a limited number of people--dying for both Jews and Gentiles alike.

They are nekros...dead to God and righteousness. Spiritual life is only found in Christ. Adam sinned and caused us to die, too. He, and consequently us, died being seperated from the only Life Source, God. We had no life(Christ) in us, being separated from Him.

Calvinism has a narrow definition of "dead" which doesn't make sense in many of the contexts that it is used. Man is made in God's own image: body, soul, and spirit. He obviously isn't a corpse, but first and foremost a spiritual being, living in a temporary body:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
--Our body is just a temporary shell while we await the resurrection. That truth is applicable to both saved and unsaved alike. The "dead" will stand before God. And they will be very much alive. They will suffer a second death. And they will be very much alive, but separated from God for all eternity. Death is separation.

God spoke to Satan, too. I guess God desires to save him, too? That is a rhetorical question and not meant to be snarky. God, just because He spoke to someone does not mean He loves them.

God loved all of his creation. Before Lucifer sinned I believe God did love him, as he does all his angels. There is no "hatred" in God. Man tends to attach emotions to God. I believe that is wrong. Much of the emotion we attribute to God are human emotion and thus anthropormorphic in nature.

However, you have sidestepped the point. Adam sinned. His fellowship with God was severed. God said that in the day that Adam would eat of that fruit he would die. Adam ate and "died." Then he continued to talk to God.
How, then, did a dead Adam continue to talk to the living God?

The reason you cannot explain this, is you have the wrong definition of death.
Adam was not dead, as in a corpse.
Adam was dead, as in separated from God. He had lost that intimate fellowship that they had in the garden when God walked and talked with them in the coolness of the garden. That wasn't there any more. To restore that fellowship an animal had to die, blood had to be shed. And so God Himself offered the first animal sacrifice when he provided coats of skins for Adam and Eve, restoring their fellowship to God.

 

[DHK]

'

This ideology is foreign to the bible monsieur. God hates all who do wrong and not just their 'wrongdoings.'

If I do wrong, then God hates me? No.
This makes God a schizophrenic.

Not even unsaved man treats his children this way.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If I do wrong, then God hates me? No.
This makes God a schizophrenic.

You do errone', mon ami, because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. [Matt. 22:29] God treats us in the same way He does His Son. He loved us, the sheep, so much He was willing to send Him to die and atone for our sins. He never sent Him to die for one single, solitary goat, monsieur. God loves us, again the sheep, in the same manner as His Son because He now sees us through Him. We can read verses such as For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God[Col. 3:3] and also I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me,[Gal. 2:20] and then we can also read Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here![2 Cor. 5:17]

Look at how God dealt with His very own Son. We can read where He loved Him so much He said “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[Matt. 3:17] Then when Jesus was desirious of being glorified, He told His Son Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.”[Jn 12:28] Then Jesus proclaimed “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”[John 11:41b,42] And then at the other end of the spectrum we can read But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed,[Isa. 53:5] and also we can read Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.[Isa 53:10] Then we can also read where God can not look upon evil Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrongdoing. Why then do you tolerate the treacherous? Why are you silent while the wicked swallow up those more righteous than themselves?[Hab. 1:13] It was when Jesus drank of that cup of sin in the garden of Gethsamane that God had to withdraw Himself from His Son, His Son 'Whom I love, with Him I am well pleased.' It was in God's holiness that He had to pour out His wrath upon His own Son. He loved Him, yet He poured His wrath upon His Son. God is not schizophrenic, mon ami.

What I am getting at is God poured out His wrath upon His Son, yet He still loved/loves Him. God's wrath was upon us when we were sinners, yet He still loved/loves us. However, we can also read For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”[1 Pet. 3:12] Christ bore our sins, our guilt, our death upon Himself, and He wiped out our sins, blotted them out by His blood. But God is not schizophrenic, because He loves His Son, yet He poured out His wrath upon His Son. And to close this, I do so with He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?[Rom. 8:32]

Not even unsaved man treats his children this way.

God is not a man, monsieur. He does not deal with His creation in the way we think He should, but how He deems fit to do so. But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’[Rom. 9:20]

 

[Yeshua1]

A "biblicist" is one who believes and follows the Bible.
He may agree with me more than disagree. You might be surprised.


Did I ever say exactly what you just said. No.
You misrepresent my beliefs.
Man does not have it in himself to do spiritual good. As Isa.64:6 states "all his righteousnesses are as filthy rags." There is nothing man can do to merit eternal life. I have always said this from the beginning.
I believe in the Depravity of Man. It is you that does not.
The Calvinists here don't believe in the Depravity of Man, rather The Total Inability of Man, which is an extreme position and one that I abhor.


Conditional election
This point holds that man is the final arbiter of his election, and that God elects him on the basis of foreseen faith which is exercised by libertarian free will, thus making man ultimately decisive.
The conclusion is wrong. God always initiates salvation. Man must respond by faith. That God knows about what decision he is about to make is really inconsequential. We are more concerned with God's dealings with mankind in the here and now, rather than what God's decrees were in eternity past. I wasn't there; neither were you.

Unlimited (or universal) atonement
Christ's death was suffered on behalf of all men and benefits all men alike. God then elects for salvation those whom he foresees will believe in Christ of their own free will.
Christ died and suffered for all men. True. The saved are those who believe on him. His atonement is efficacious only to those that believe. Again, we are more concerned with the here and now, not with eternity past.

In regards to limited atonement, Peter, in 2Pet.2:1 calls this particular doctrine a "damnable heresy" as it is translated in the KJV.
Lest you think I am "unorthodox" in my interpretation, let me quote to you the brief note from the KJV Study Bible:


Resistible grace
This point holds that God never overcomes the resistance of man to His saving grace. While both Calvinists and Arminians hold that men often resist God's grace, Arminianism teaches that this resistance is rarely conquered by God because this would be a violation of man's libertarian free will.
I am not sure what Arminians believe.
I know what the Bible teaches.

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
--It was evident to Stephen (and the Holy Spirit) that the Israelites (as well as their ancestors) were able to resist the Holy Spirit, and had been doing so for many years. This truth is contradicted by Calvinists.

The universal call of salvation
Arminians hold that God calls all people to Himself through Christ, whether or not this call is effectual depends upon the individuals libertarian free will. http://www.theopedia.com/arminianism
First, Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."
I hope you believe that. There is no other way of salvation but through Christ. This way is the only way no matter who you are or where you are in the world. The Great Commission was to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Is that not true?
Do not believers have the responsibility of carrying out this commission, and contrariwise do not unbelievers have the responsibility of responding to it?
The obvious answer is yes, both do.
We shall all give account of ourselves before God. Or don't you believe that man will give account of himself before God?

How can those of us though bound up in sin natures, and spiritual dead in ourselves find and produce that faith?

Even if God used his foreknowledge of sinners coming to Jesus, which he does not due to the effects of the fall, where do they get that needed faith from?

 

[DHK]

How can those of us though bound up in sin natures, and spiritual dead in ourselves find and produce that faith?

Even if God used his foreknowledge of sinners coming to Jesus, which he does not due to the effects of the fall, where do they get that needed faith from?

"Go thy way thy faith hath made thee whole."

And what about the Roman Centurion:

Matthew 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Explain this passage to me.
Your belief seems to indicate that the centurion, before coming to Jesus, must have sat in some yoga position doing TM, then working himself into a frenzy, possibly seeking a nirvana experience and thus achieving the "faith" required to put in Jesus. Is that about right?
After all you ask the question "Where to the spiritually dead find and produce that faith?"
So would that answer satisfy you?

Faith is faith. It is confidence or trust in another. Do you have faith or trust in your wife. Or do you think that she is a dishonest person and will cheat on you any day, perhaps every day? You are very suspicious and have no trust in her at all. Why would you even be married if that would be the case? I do hope you have some confidence/trust/faith in her.
We all have faith. It is the object of the faith that is important.

The object of the centurion's faith was Christ. He had seen Jesus heal and he knew he could heal his daughter. His faith was great enough that he believed Jesus could heal with a simple word without even entering his house. Jesus said he had greater faith than anyone else in Israel. That is quite a testimony! What was the source of his faith Yeshua!

How did he know Jesus could heal his daughter. Where did that great confidence come from?
Note that it was HIS FAITH, that Jesus commended, though Jesus did the healing. But without HIS FAITH the girl would not have been healed.
The same is true with salvation.