A False Teaching on Christ’s Satisfaction Exposed

[BrotherJoseph]

Man does not have it in himself to do spiritual good. As Isa.64:6 states "all his righteousnesses are as filthy rags." There is nothing man can do to merit eternal life. I have always said this from the beginning.
I believe in the Depravity of Man. It is you that does not.
The Calvinists here don't believe in the Depravity of Man, rather The Total Inability of Man, which is an extreme position and one that I abhor.

Brother DHK,

How can you say, "Man does not have it in himself to do spiritual good", but then maintain that man can choose to repent and believe in the gospel to become regenerated? Isn't this a "good" thing if one does this out of their own free will and self produced faith?

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

How can you say, "Man does not have it in himself to do spiritual good", but then maintain that man can choose to repent and believe in the gospel to become regenerated? Isn't this a "good" thing if one does this out of their own free will and self produced faith?

Man has to be redeemed, justified, sanctified, regenerated, etc. before his "good" will be accepted before God, that is the good that he would try to do in order to merit heaven.
The Bible plainly teaches that "faith" is not a work, not a good work, not any work at all. It, like grace, stands in opposition to works. It is not something one "does." To put it into the category of works is theologically wrong.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--Abraham was justified without works--by faith alone. Faith is not a work.
--Verse 5: We are justified without works but by faith alone. Faith is put in opposition to works. It is not a work. It is not something one can "do," as is demonstrated by verse four. In verse four those that work, work for wages or a "debt" to be owed. Not so with faith. That which comes by faith is given out of grace.

The choice to put faith in Christ is one's own choice. It is a God-given choice, for every man is made in the image of God. It is what makes us different from animals. An animal cannot make that choice, but man can.

Your choice of language is interesting (typical Calvinistic phraseology however).
What is the "source" of faith?
When concerning salvation and only salvation, the source of faith is the Word of God.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
--There is the source of faith. It comes by hearing the Word of God; not through regeneration, but through hearing the Word of God.

 

[Rippon]

The Calvinists here don't believe in the Depravity of Man, rather The Total Inability of Man, which is an extreme position and one that I abhor.

The total inability of man and total depravity are one and the same.

On 3/7/1858 Charles Spurgeon preached a sermon called Human Inability

In a message from 6/21/1863 called The Sinner's Advocate he said :"The fact is, that man is a reeking mass of corruption. His whole soul is by nature so debased and so depraved that no description which can be given of him even by inspired tongues can fully tell how base and vile a thing he is."

That God knows about what decision he is about to make is really inconsequential.

As far as you're concerned God merely got the memo. God is a bystander. If man doesn't turn the key, then God cannot do anything with respect to salvation.

As far as you are concerned the Holy Spirit may be involved in the deal but the ability of man and his keen perception is what seals the salvation enterprise.

We are more concerned with God's dealings with mankind in the here and now, rather than what God's decrees were in eternity past.

Without the decrees of God --nothing happens. You can't lay His decrees aside and yet maintain that you follow the Bible.

In regards to limited atonement, Peter, in 2Pet.2:1 calls this particular doctrine a "damnable heresy" as it is translated in the KJV.

You continually promote this idiocy.

Lest you think I am "unorthodox" in my interpretation

We do so regard you. You are on the outer fringen with respect to your unique theory.

 

[DHK]

The total inability of man and total depravity are one and the same.

No, they are quite different. I am not taking the time to explain the difference to you now. You should take the time to study it out for yourself though.

In a message called The Sinner's Advocate he said :"The fact is, that man is a reeking mass of corruption. His whole soul is by nature so debased and so depraved that no description which can be given of him even by inspired tongues can fully tell how base and vile a thing he is."

And so??

As far as you're concerned God merely got the memo. God is a bystander. If man doesn't turn the key, then God cannot do anything with respect to salvation.

As far as you are concerned the Holy Spirit may be involved in the deal but the ability of man and his keen perception is what seals the salvation enterprise.

And as far as I am concerned you are entitled to your opinion which isn't worth much.

Without the decrees of God --nothing happens. You can't lay His decrees aside and yet maintain that you follow the Bible.

Concerning the decrees of God:
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
--You know God's mind; you have been His counselor; you were there at the beginning of creation; you were there at the very beginning to advise him when he made his decrees? I never would have known!! Should we all bow down to you??
--Contrary to what you say, absolutely everything will carry one according to the perfect will of God without me trying to figure out what the decrees of God are.

You continually promote this idiocy.

Me?? I didn't say those things. That was a straight quote from the KJV Study Bible. Would you like me to quote some other sources that quite plainly and clearly label "limited atonement" as a "damnable heresy"?

 

[Rippon]

No, they are quite different. I am not taking the time to explain the difference to you now. You should take the time to study it out for yourself though.

Total inability and total depravity are one and the same.

I have quoted from Spurgeon's "Human Inability" sermon before. The total inability of man is not an extreme position of Calvinists. Spurgeon used the two terms interchangeably. People are pervasively corrupted.

And you are off your ever-lovin'-rocker to declare that Calvinists here do not believe in the depravity of man. There is absolutely no way for you to deny that we most certainly believe in the depravity of man. The nonsense you spout is never-ending.

And so??

Spurgeon was speaking of the "reeking mass of corruption" of man. And you respond with the ever-clever --"And so??" it flies in the face of your fictional non-Calvinist Spurgeon.

And as far as I am concerned you are entitled to your opinion which isn't worth much.

Those were your opinions Bud.

Concerning the decrees of God:
--You know God's mind; you have been His counselor; you were there at the beginning of creation; you were there at the very beginning to advise him when he made his decrees? I never would have known!! Should we all bow down to you??

Your whole diatribe is so unnecessary and quite sinful. I told you to not lay aside the decrees of God. You don't care about the decrees of God. They happened in eternity past --you are more concerned about "the here and now" as you so ineptly said.

Me?? I didn't say those things. That was a straight quote from the KJV Study Bible.

The KJV translation does not label as damnable heresy those who hold to particular redemption. I guess you are clueless that the bulk of the revisers were Calvinists.

Would you like me to quote some other sources that quite plainly and clearly label "limited atonement" as a "damnable heresy"?

Go for it. But anyone who calls upon 2 Peter 2:1 to support such junk should be covered with shame.

 

[Yeshua1]

"Go thy way thy faith hath made thee whole."

And what about the Roman Centurion:

Matthew 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Explain this passage to me.
Your belief seems to indicate that the centurion, before coming to Jesus, must have sat in some yoga position doing TM, then working himself into a frenzy, possibly seeking a nirvana experience and thus achieving the "faith" required to put in Jesus. Is that about right?
After all you ask the question "Where to the spiritually dead find and produce that faith?"
So would that answer satisfy you?

Faith is faith. It is confidence or trust in another. Do you have faith or trust in your wife. Or do you think that she is a dishonest person and will cheat on you any day, perhaps every day? You are very suspicious and have no trust in her at all. Why would you even be married if that would be the case? I do hope you have some confidence/trust/faith in her.
We all have faith. It is the object of the faith that is important.

The object of the centurion's faith was Christ. He had seen Jesus heal and he knew he could heal his daughter. His faith was great enough that he believed Jesus could heal with a simple word without even entering his house. Jesus said he had greater faith than anyone else in Israel. That is quite a testimony! What was the source of his faith Yeshua!

How did he know Jesus could heal his daughter. Where did that great confidence come from?
Note that it was HIS FAITH, that Jesus commended, though Jesus did the healing. But without HIS FAITH the girl would not have been healed.
The same is true with salvation.

What is the reason that some hear the message of Jesus and respond to Him, while others stay dead in their sin natures?

The Bible states that is due to salvation being the work of the Holy Spirit on our behalfs, and that no one can even call upon Jesus as Lord to be saved apart from His working on their behalf, so again, where does this faith to believe reside and come from?

Do all humans have that capacity to believe, or is it just those whom God enables to freely respond?

And if God is waiting upon us to respond by faith, how are we not in the final sense the authors of our own salvation then?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Your choice of language is interesting (typical Calvinistic phraseology however).
What is the "source" of faith?

Faith is a "gift" of God per scripture (Ephesians 2:8), moreover Christ is the "author" of it according to scripture (Hebrews 12:2). It is not in man to produce it, that is why faith is said to be a "fruit" of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) not a fruit of the flesh because "in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing" and he "that is in the flesh cannot please God". You must first have the tree that produces the fruit (i.e. Spirit) before you can bear the fruit (faith). You have the cart before the horse. Life must always precede action in both the physical realm and the spiritual realm, likewise one who is "dead" spiritually cannot take an action of faith until they are first made alive.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

What is the reason that some hear the message of Jesus and respond to Him, while others stay dead in their sin natures?

The Bible states that is due to salvation being the work of the Holy Spirit on our behalfs, and that no one can even call upon Jesus as Lord to be saved apart from His working on their behalf, so again, where does this faith to believe reside and come from?

Do all humans have that capacity to believe, or is it just those whom God enables to freely respond?

And if God is waiting upon us to respond by faith, how are we not in the final sense the authors of our own salvation then?

Brother Yeshua,

You bring up some good points. The problem is Brother DHK's doctrinal system is explaining how can he account for different responses to the same gospel message to people that have the same hearts and natures. If they respond differently, it can only be because they are different (i.e. one has the Spirit of God in them and one does not).

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Revmitchell]

Is God limited by the nature of man in order to communicate the gospel to Him?



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

 

[DHK]

Faith is a "gift" of God per scripture (Ephesians 2:8),

There is not a verse in scripture that teaches faith is a gift of God to the unbeliever, unless you take that scripture out of context or make it means something it doesn't mean, as you have assumed above. Look at the verse:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--The entire two verses center around those three words "are ye saved." There is the verb and its subject.

By grace: A prepositional phrase modifying the verb telling how one is saved--by the grace of God (Christ dying on the cross)

Through faith: A prepositional phrase modifying the verb telling the means by which one is saved (salvation is by faith and faith alone)

And that not of yourselves: Subject is salvation--Salvation is not of oneself. One cannot merit salvation.

It is--not found in the Greek.

The gift of God Salvation is the subject. Salvation is the gift of God. It must be accepted by faith.

Not of works: Salvation is not of works.

lest any man should boast.: Salvation cannot be boasted of, for it is all of God; all of grace.

--There is nothing in this verse teaching that faith is a gift of God; it is not.

moreover Christ is the "author" of it according to scripture (Hebrews 12:2).

(ESV) looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

(ISV) fixing our attention on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of the faith, who, in view of the joy set before him, endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

In this passage Jesus is set forth as our great example. The word used for author is more accurately translated in the ISV as "pioneered." He set the way for us. He pioneered our faith. Then the word for finisher is that for "completion" or "perfection." He pioneered it and perfectly completed it, that is the race that is set forth in verse one. He is our perfect example that we should "Look unto..." The verse in no way says that he "gives us faith."
Rather it is speaking of the race--the way of faith, the path of faith--our faith, something far more tangible.

It is not in man to produce it,

I don't know what you are talking about. Only Hindus, Buddhists, etc. talk about "producing" faith. Christianity is not mysticism. I do hope you are not involved in mysticism.

that is why faith is said to be a "fruit" of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22)

And God does not give spiritual fruit to the unbeliever does he?

not a fruit of the flesh because "in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing" and he "that is in the flesh cannot please God".

That is not entirely true is it? The statement is only true if one is speaking in the realm of salvation. Please answer:
Is a mother who nurses her child "doing good"?
Is a father providing for his family "dong good"?
Is a "good samaritan" who risks his life to save another "doing good"?

What did Jesus say?
Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
--Did Jesus teach that evil men can give good gifts?

You must first have the tree that produces the fruit (i.e. Spirit) before you can bear the fruit (faith). You have the cart before the horse. Life must always precede action in both the physical realm and the spiritual realm, likewise one who is "dead" spiritually cannot take an action of faith until they are first made alive.

You deny what Jesus taught. You don't know the meaning of "dead"
Jesus said concerning the Roman centurion that he had more faith than any one in all of Israel, when he asked Christ to heal his daughter and said that he didn't have to come to his home to heal him.
Jesus said "be it according to your faith.
Where did his faith come from?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

There is not a verse in scripture that teaches faith is a gift of God to the unbeliever, unless you take that scripture out of context or make it means something it doesn't mean, as you have assumed above. Look at the verse:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--The entire two verses center around those three words "are ye saved." There is the verb and its subject.

By grace: A prepositional phrase modifying the verb telling how one is saved--by the grace of God (Christ dying on the cross)

Through faith: A prepositional phrase modifying the verb telling the means by which one is saved (salvation is by faith and faith alone)

And that not of yourselves: Subject is salvation--Salvation is not of oneself. One cannot merit salvation.

It is--not found in the Greek.

The gift of God Salvation is the subject. Salvation is the gift of God. It must be accepted by faith.

Not of works: Salvation is not of works.

lest any man should boast.: Salvation cannot be boasted of, for it is all of God; all of grace.

--There is nothing in this verse teaching that faith is a gift of God; it is not

Brother you are twisting scripture. Ephesians 2:8 is very plain, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves" (KJV)

The "and that not of yourselves" is immediately preceded by the words "through faith", thus faith is the object of what is " that not of yourselves". Even the Living Bible makes this one plain, "Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves; it too is a gift from God.". I notice you quote the King James, but then when it doesn't seem to suit your theology you find a version that does.

As you like other versions, the NIV makes it plain too, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"

John Gill wrote in his commentary on this verse, " and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power". You mentioned you believe "and that not of yourselves" refers to salvation, not faith, Gill also addressed this very question in regards to the original Greek in a question to his professor, he writes, "
I asked the following question from a Greek and Hebrew professor:
“In this verse, to what does the word “that” refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and “Faith” is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However “Grace” is also feminine as is “Salvation”.”

His reply was:
“Here you ask a wonderful theological/exegetical question to which I can only give an opinion, and not a definitive answer. The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are “nor of yourselves,” and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position). In which regard the whole theological issue of “regeneration preceding faith” comes into play. So, that is basically my opinion, though others obviously disagree strenuously, but from an exegetical standpoint, the other positions have to explain away the matter of the tautology.”

Whether you accept the reply or not, it is sufficient to show that the Greek is not as definitive in this verse as some scholars would have you believe"
http://http://goodbooksfree.com/commentaries/gill/49002.html#Ephesians2:8

fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.ESV) looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

(ISV) fixing our attention on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of the faith, who, in view of the joy set before him, endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

In this passage Jesus is set forth as our great example. The word used for author is more accurately translated in the ISV as "pioneered." He set the way for us. He pioneered our faith. Then the word for finisher is that for "completion" or "perfection." He pioneered it and perfectly completed it, that is the race that is set forth in verse one. He is our perfect example that we should "Look unto..." The verse in no way says that he "gives us faith."
Rather it is speaking of the race--the way of faith, the path of faith--our faith, something far more tangible.

Here again you deviate from the King James when it is not convenient for your doctrine to other translations. It is notable the also NASB keeps the word "author" in it, "fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

And God does not give spiritual fruit to the unbeliever does he?

That is not entirely true is it? The statement is only true if one is speaking in the realm of salvation. Please answer:
Is a mother who nurses her child "doing good"?
Is a father providing for his family "dong good"?
Is a "good samaritan" who risks his life to save another "doing good"?

What did Jesus say?
Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
--Did Jesus teach that evil men can give good gifts?

A mother who nurses her child, or a good Samaritan risking his life to save another on the surface man may conclude these are indeed "good fruits" produced by unbelievers, but God judges motive, and what appears to be a "good work" can be from an evil motive (pride, glory seeking , self interest). Jesus taught this, "22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23)

Scripture is clear regarding the depravity of man, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5). Don't kid yourself, man's nature inherited in Adam has not changed from what it was prior to the flood.

Prior to regeneration, is one a corrupt tree or a good tree? If the former, remember what our Lord said, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit (Matthew 7:8) and " A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." (Matthew 12:35). Prior to regeneration, is man "good" or "evil" according to scripture?

A man can give "good gifts", but what is his motive behind giving the "good gifts"? The Pharisees did seemingly "good" things, but we read, "But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments" (Matthew 23:5) Don't kid yourself by thinking your nature inherited from Adam is any different than the nature that the Pharisiees inherited from him!

What does scripture say regarding all of the righteousness a may can bring forward? "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags..." (Isaiah 64:6). Don't you believe this verse brother?

You deny what Jesus taught. You don't know the meaning of "dead"
Jesus said concerning the Roman centurion that he had more faith than any one in all of Israel, when he asked Christ to heal his daughter and said that he didn't have to come to his home to heal him.
Jesus said "be it according to your faith.
Where did his faith come from?

I don't know the meaning of "dead"? Wait a minute here, aren't you the one contending a man "dead in trespasses and sins" can do something of having faith in the gospel and repent? The last time I checked a dead man could do nothing? Could Lazarus have done something to come forward prior to Christ calling him back to life? Of course not! Likewise, a dead sinner can't do anything to make himself alive. The centurion got his faith the same place you and I did , from the Lord! You believe faith is what causes one to be regenerated, and regeneration is part of salvation, thus you come into contradiction with scripture that says repeatedly "But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord..." (Psalm 37:39). This is a short simple scripture, but yet you contradict it in your teachings.

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Yeshua,

You bring up some good points. The problem is Brother DHK's doctrinal system is explaining how can he account for different responses to the same gospel message to people that have the same hearts and natures. If they respond differently, it can only be because they are different (i.e. one has the Spirit of God in them and one does not).

God bless,

Brother Joe

Brother DHK,

I would be interested in your reply to my above quote, though it did not contain a question.

 

[DHK]

Brother you are twisting scripture. Ephesians 2:8 is very plain, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves" (KJV)

The "and that not of yourselves" is immediately preceded by the words "through faith", thus faith is the object of what is " that not of yourselves". Even the Living Bible makes this one plain, "Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves; it too is a gift from God.". I notice you quote the King James, but then when it doesn't seem to suit your theology you find a version that does.

As you like other versions, the NIV makes it plain too, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"

Here I am not wrong. I have studied this verse thoroughly, diagrammed it, checked the Greek, consulted hoards of commentaries and Greek sources. I have done my homework here. I know I am right. Every phrase in this verse refers right back to "You are saved," or salvation. They are all subject to it. Salvation is the topic, and all other phrases point right back to this subject.
The only reason why you would say otherwise is because of bias in your theology. You need a verse to say that faith is a gift; but it isn't so.

John Gill wrote in his commentary on this verse, " and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power". You mentioned you believe "and that not of yourselves" refers to salvation, not faith, Gill also addressed this very question in regards to the original Greek in a question to his professor, he writes, "
I asked the following question from a Greek and Hebrew professor:
“In this verse, to what does the word “that” refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and “Faith” is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However “Grace” is also feminine as is “Salvation”.”

His reply was:
“Here you ask a wonderful theological/exegetical question to which I can only give an opinion, and not a definitive answer. The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are “nor of yourselves,” and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position). In which regard the whole theological issue of “regeneration preceding faith” comes into play. So, that is basically my opinion, though others obviously disagree strenuously, but from an exegetical standpoint, the other positions have to explain away the matter of the tautology.”

Whether you accept the reply or not, it is sufficient to show that the Greek is not as definitive in this verse as some scholars would have you believe"
http://http://goodbooksfree.com/commentaries/gill/49002.html#Ephesians2:8

I don't really care. Gill was a hyper-Calvinist.

A.T. Robertson:

For by grace (têi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse Eph 2:5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pisteôs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Eph 2:5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautê, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humôn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dôron) and not the result of our work.

Here again you deviate from the King James when it is not convenient for your doctrine to other translations. It is notable the also NASB keeps the word "author" in it, "fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

NO. I went to the Greek, and the context, both of which you ignored. You went with convenience and bias.
Context:
Chapter 11: The author gives a role of men and women of faith who lived and walked by faith throughout the OT, but not seeing the "promise", that is, the Messiah.
12:1--We are surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses. Or, consider that we are in such an arena with these great saints looking on.
--We are in a great race in which we are to run. Lay aside the weight and the sin which would hinder you in this race.
--Now in this race "Look unto Jesus" He is your example in this race. By using him as your example you can finish it victoriously. He not only began it, He pioneered it, traveled it, finished it, and all without even one sin. He perfected it. Use him as your example. The race is "the walk of faith," the same walk or "race" that those in the OT took before you. Now you have Jesus before you. Look to him. He pioneered a way for you.
The word for "author" is more clearly rendered "pioneer."
The word for "finisher" is more clearly rendered completer or perfecter.
In context my explanation makes far more sense.

A mother who nurses her child, or a good Samaritan risking his life to save another on the surface man may conclude these are indeed "good fruits" produced by unbelievers, but God judges motive, and what appears to be a "good work" can be from an evil motive (pride, glory seeking , self interest). Jesus taught this, "22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23)

I used to say things like that. Then I repented and got right with God.

Scripture is clear regarding the depravity of man, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5). Don't kid yourself, man's nature inherited in Adam has not changed from what it was prior to the flood.

That was the cause of the flood!
That is not the situation of today. Again, Scripture taken out of context.

 

[DHK]

Prior to regeneration, is one a corrupt tree or a good tree? If the former, remember what our Lord said, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit (Matthew 7:8) and " A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." (Matthew 12:35). Prior to regeneration, is man "good" or "evil" according to scripture?

A man can give "good gifts", but what is his motive behind giving the "good gifts"? The Pharisees did seemingly "good" things, but we read, "But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments" (Matthew 23:5) Don't kid yourself by thinking your nature inherited from Adam is any different than the nature that the Pharisiees inherited from him!

You either question Jesus or deny what he says??
And for what reason? To uphold the doctrines of Calvin? Truly sad!
If an evil man gives a good gift then it is a good work!

What does scripture say regarding all of the righteousness a may can bring forward? "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags..." (Isaiah 64:6). Don't you believe this verse brother?

As long as you pit scripture against scripture you won't make any sense.

I don't know the meaning of "dead"? Wait a minute here, aren't you the one contending a man "dead in trespasses and sins" can do something of having faith in the gospel and repent? The last time I checked a dead man could do nothing?

When the "dead" enter into the Lake of Fire, will they do "nothing"?

Could Lazarus have done something to come forward prior to Christ calling him back to life? Of course not! Likewise, a dead sinner can't do anything to make himself alive.

The rich man was "dead." Both physically and spiritually dead--yet he cried out to "Father Abraham" and asked for Lazarus to cool his tongue. How do you account for that. Being twice dead he could feel the torment of flames.
Furthermore he wanted Lazarus to go and tell his five brothers (spiritually dead) that they might not come to this place.
Abraham said they wouldn't listen to Lazarus, but they "could" listen to the law. They had that ability. The problem was: They rejected it of their own free will.

Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The centurion got his faith the same place you and I did , from the Lord!

Prove that through scripture. That is you reading whatever you want into scripture. You are using the exact same method of eisigesis that the RCC uses to prove infant baptism.

You believe faith is what causes one to be regenerated, and regeneration is part of salvation, thus you come into contradiction with scripture that says repeatedly "But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord..." (Psalm 37:39). This is a short simple scripture, but yet you contradict it in your teachings.
Brother Joe

Did I ever say anything different?
That verse doesn't contradict anything I believe.

 

[Protestant]

The question of salvation being all of God’s grace is not in question among the Ephesians.

Not once does Paul allude to the possibility the Ephesians were taking credit for their salvation.

Instead, in the first chapter Paul asserts the Ephesians believed the gospel of their salvation, placing their faith in Christ.

Nowhere does Paul insinuate they are in danger of placing their faith in themselves.

Therefore, the argument that Paul was teaching the Ephesians that salvation is not of themselves is absurd.

Of special interest in chapter 1 is Paul’s prayer that God enlighten them to the truth as to why they, and all Christians, believe.

To accomplish this feat, Paul explains God exercised the same power used to resurrect Christ from the dead.

In chapter 2, Paul continues using the analogy of death, thereby reinforcing the truth the Ephesians were dead in their trespasses and sins.

A resurrection was necessary for them to believe.

God showed them mercy and quickened them with Christ.

Paul emphasizes, ‘By grace are ye saved.’

Their spiritual resurrection was an act of grace, not due to anything good or deserving in them.

But to further press the point that their salvation is all of God’s merciful grace, Paul reminds them of the truth taught in chapter 1: they, and all Christians, believe on Christ due to the power of God alone.

Their faith is not of themselves; it was wrought in them by His great power and is His gracious gift to His people.

Conclusion: For a professing Christian to take credit for his saving, justifying faith, while dismissing the clear testimony of Scripture and centuries of Christian witness places that person in an extremely precarious position, tantamount to doing despite to the Spirit of grace.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Here I am not wrong. I have studied this verse thoroughly, diagrammed it, checked the Greek, consulted hoards of commentaries and Greek sources. I have done my homework here. I know I am right. Every phrase in this verse refers right back to "You are saved," or salvation. They are all subject to it. Salvation is the topic, and all other phrases point right back to this subject.
The only reason why you would say otherwise is because of bias in your theology. You need a verse to say that faith is a gift; but it isn't so.


I don't really care. Gill was a hyper-Calvinist.

A.T. Robertson:

Brother DHK,

I am going to be going to bed, but wanted to quickly post a brief comment to your reply to me. The commentary you provided on Ephesians 2:8 by Robertson puts forth the premise that because "and that" is neuter and "faith" if feminine, "and that" cannot be referring to faith, but rather is referring to salvation, however what Mr. Robertson did not mention in his commentary (which you also probably failed to notice in your quick above dismissal of the commentary by John Gill ) that is that the word "saved" (or salvation) in Ephesians 2:8 is also feminine, thus there exists no precise referent for the "and that" because likewise the word "grace" is feminine too, so the "and that" could be referring to any one of the three things that are mentioned (grace, faith, or saved) as they are all feminine . This is what I believe is the case, Paul is referring to the grace, being saved, and faith are all not of ourselves, or he can be referring to any one of the three, but as they are all feminine it would be impossible to say conclusively which one. I do not think Mr. Robertson's interpretation makes any sense from a logical point of view because He maintains Paul is saying being saved is not of ourselves, but believes faith causes regeneration (which is part of being saved) is of ourselves, thus it would be a contradiction. How can salvation not be of ourselves, if we are the cause of our own regeneration (which is a phase of salvation) via faith?

 

[DHK]

The question of salvation being all of God’s grace is not in question among the Ephesians.

True.

Not once does Paul allude to the possibility the Ephesians were taking credit for their salvation.

Agreed.

Instead, in the first chapter Paul asserts the Ephesians believed the gospel of their salvation, placing their faith in Christ.

Yes. Note your words: Their faith in Christ.

Nowhere does Paul insinuate they are in danger of placing their faith in themselves.

He doesn't have to. But you seemed to be confused.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
1. The subject is salvation, not faith.
2. Salvation is through faith and faith alone (cf. Rom.5:1).
3. Salvation is not of oneself. That is one cannot merit salvation. It is not of good works. It is not of oneself in that one cannot work themselves to heaven. This has nothing to do with faith, but rather what one can DO for themselves.

Therefore, the argument that Paul was teaching the Ephesians that salvation is not of themselves is absurd.

That is what the Bible says. Why question the exact wording of the scriptures. Salvation "is not of oneself." It is in contrast to "by grace through faith."

Of special interest in chapter 1 is Paul’s prayer that God enlighten them to the truth as to why they, and all Christians, believe.


To accomplish this feat, Paul explains God exercised the same power used to resurrect Christ from the dead.

In chapter 2, Paul continues using the analogy of death, thereby reinforcing the truth the Ephesians were dead in their trespasses and sins.

A resurrection was necessary for them to believe.

God showed them mercy and quickened them with Christ.

Paul emphasizes, ‘By grace are ye saved.’

Their spiritual resurrection was an act of grace, not due to anything good or deserving in them.

But to further press the point that their salvation is all of God’s merciful grace, Paul reminds them of the truth taught in chapter 1: they, and all Christians, believe on Christ due to the power of God alone.

Their faith is not of themselves; it was wrought in them by His great power and is His gracious gift to His people.

You have made some assumptions here based on your Calvinism and not on Scripture. Nowhere does it say "faith is not of themselves."
Salvation is not of themselves. You are deliberately butchering the scriptures.

Conclusion: For a professing Christian to take credit for his saving, justifying faith, while dismissing the clear testimony of Scripture and centuries of Christian witness places that person in an extremely precarious position, tantamount to doing despite to the Spirit of grace.

To come to this false conclusion that God gives faith to the unregenerate is quite astounding. It is unbiblical and nowhere taught in the Word. You needed to butcher the scriptures here to teach and failed to succeed.
There is not one verse that teaches God gave faith to the unsaved--nowhere.

 

[Rippon]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
This has nothing to do with faith, but rather what one can DO for themselves.

The above is absolutely astounding and revolting. How can you manage to preach with that wresting of God's Word?

 

[DHK]

The above is absolutely astounding and revolting. How can you manage to preach with that wresting of God's Word?

How can you conscientiously post something like the above.
Provide the quote where I said such a thing! But provide the quote in its entirety, not a partial quote! To be so deceptive in your posting is the equivalent of outright lying.

 

[Rebel]

Here I am not wrong. I have studied this verse thoroughly, diagrammed it, checked the Greek, consulted hoards of commentaries and Greek sources. I have done my homework here. I know I am right. Every phrase in this verse refers right back to "You are saved," or salvation. They are all subject to it. Salvation is the topic, and all other phrases point right back to this subject.
The only reason why you would say otherwise is because of bias in your theology. You need a verse to say that faith is a gift; but it isn't so.

You are absolutely correct. The way the sentence is constructed makes it impossible that the "that" is referring to faith.